Oshkosh 2021 Notam - Airventure

[iamtheari]

So, I'm going to Oshkosh, you all better stay out of my way. I talked this over with a pro instructor on Cirrus, he told me to pop in 50% flaps and fly it at 90 knots, he said if someone is flying it slower than that, pass them. He also said to be careful when they start turning you to land if ask you to "tighten up" the turn.

Should be fun.

If nothing else, the "pro instructor on Cirrus" is doing a great job reinforcing stereotypes about Cirrus pilots by giving advice that is directly contrary to the explicit wording of the official NOTAM. Cleverly hidden on page 5 under the heading Ripon to Fisk, it gives this instruction: "Do not overtake another aircraft unless authorized by ATC." The NOTAM immediately goes on to say not to S-turn to follow an aircraft, either, but instead to break off the procedure, go back to the starting point, and follow another aircraft of similar speed.

Edit to add: "Do not overtake another aircraft" is also mentioned on the prior page under Transitions.

 

[painless]

So this pro instructor at Cirrus explicitly said to ignore the notam and pass up other airplanes?? Some of the causes of the mayhem on the Fisk arrival are becoming clearer to me……

 

[baboss]

If nothing else, the "pro instructor on Cirrus" is doing a great job reinforcing stereotypes about Cirrus pilots by giving advice that is directly contrary to the explicit wording of the official NOTAM. Cleverly hidden on page 5 under the heading Ripon to Fisk, it gives this instruction: "Do not overtake another aircraft unless authorized by ATC." The NOTAM immediately goes on to say not to S-turn to follow an aircraft, either, but instead to break off the procedure, go back to the starting point, and follow another aircraft of similar speed.

Doesn't help that the webinar presenter (the guy that's worked on the NOTAM for at least 25 years) suggested that if there was a hole in front of a slow airplane you were overtaking, to pass the slower airplane...
Pretty sure the NOTAM takes precedence over his suggestion but it's out there in the ether now and people will follow & quote it.
This year's arrival ought to be fun!

 

[iamtheari]

Doesn't help that the webinar presenter (the guy that's worked on the NOTAM for at least 25 years) suggested that if there was a hole in front of a slow airplane you were overtaking, to pass the slower airplane...
Pretty sure the NOTAM takes precedence over his suggestion but it's out there in the ether now and people will quote it.
This year's arrival ought to be fun!

I got to the webinar about 45 minutes late so I missed that part. Yikes!

 

[PaulS]

Steingar just told us about following a plane a 80 mph, that's my stall speed with 50% flaps, that's not going to work for me, I'm not doing that. 85 knots, maybe, 80 mph, nope. Stick to 90 knots and you won't see me passing you.

 

[tsts4]

So, I'm going to Oshkosh, you all better stay out of my way. I talked this over with a pro instructor on Cirrus, he told me to pop in 50% flaps and fly it at 90 knots, he said if someone is flying it slower than that, pass them. He also said to be careful when they start turning you to land if ask you to "tighten up" the turn.

Should be fun.

its a tight pattern— way tighter than you’re used to. Plus there’s the spot landing aspect that can add some pucker factor to the uninitiated. I suggest getting out there and practice slow flight, and pattern work. I do it every year as a warm up to the trip and I’ve flown in the past 5 shows,

 

[iamtheari]

Steingar just told us about following a plane a 80 mph, that's my stall speed with 50% flaps, that's not going to work for me, I'm not doing that. 85 knots, maybe, 80 mph, nope. Stick to 90 knots and you won't see me passing you.

There's literally a rule about what to do if the plane in front of you is going too slowly for you safely to maintain 1/2 mile in trail. It is to (a) not overtake the other plane and (b) go back to the beginning of the procedure and choose a better plane to follow. Breaking the rules turns the entire arrival into a nightmare for everyone, including yourself.

If you can't or won't safely follow the normal VFR arrival procedure, there are alternatives. You can land somewhere else that doesn't require you to follow the Oshkosh rules and drive or bus over to the airshow. You can ride with a pilot who has been in before and help look out the window to find traffic. Or you can join a mass arrival group. Here is a picture of the 2019 Cirrus mass arrival.

 

[tsts4]

Steingar just told us about following a plane a 80 mph, that's my stall speed with 50% flaps, that's not going to work for me, I'm not doing that. 85 knots, maybe, 80 mph, nope. Stick to 90 knots and you won't see me passing you.

You have to be prepared to bail and rejoin the conga line if necessary. On my first trip to Osh, I was between Fisk and the entry to the 27 downwind when the guy in front of me dropped all of his flaps and hit the brakes. I tried to s-turn to keep my spacing but couldn’t. So I bailed, rejoined at Ripon and had an uneventful arrival and landing on 36 this time.

 

[PaulS]

its a tight pattern— way tighter than you’re used to. Plus there’s the spot landing aspect that can add some pucker factor to the uninitiated. I suggest getting out there and practice slow flight, and pattern work. I do it every year as a warm up to the trip and I’ve flown in the past 5 shows,

You have to be prepared to bail and rejoin the conga line if necessary. On my first trip to Osh, I was between Fisk and the entry to the 27 downwind when the guy in front of me dropped all of his flaps and hit the brakes. I tried to s-turn to keep my spacing but couldn’t. So I bailed, rejoined at Ripon and had an uneventful arrival and landing on 36 this time.

I'm not really worried about hitting the spot, or maneuvering in close. But getting stuck behind someone putting along at 80 mph level flight, that worries me a little. I still need to dig in to the notam, I'll get it figured out.

Thanks for the non-Karen response.

 

[flyingron]

he said if someone is flying it slower than that, pass them.

No. Two wrongs do not make a right. If you can't stay behind them, you've got little choice but to start over, I'm afraid.

If you're directed to 36L/R you'll pretty much be given a turn direct to base from Fisk. The only thing they'll typically do is have you had to the dots to keep your speed up as much as possible unless there's someone right ahead of you.

IF you're directed to 27, then yes, they'll want you to usually to keep the entire pattern tight, inside the blue water tower and a short downwind-base-final turn.

Similarly if directed to 18 (Do not go north of the control tower to avoid the 27/9 pattern).

 

[kyleb]

Look, 90 knots is a very difficult speed for me (my gear speed is only 87 and they also want the gear down), but I do it when flying the Ripon arrival.

90 knots is a difficult speed for a lot of people. I've flown the Ripon/Fisk thing close to 25 times and the only time I was going 90 knots was when I was the only airplane around. ;-)

The big challenge is the accordion effect. You get a Champ doing 75 mph, and something faster closes right up on him before realizing the speed issue. The the RV/Mooney/Bo drops back to 70 mph to create some space, which means the next guy in line, who also got too close, has to slow to 65 to create a comfortable space, and pretty soon guy #4 in the single file line is completely screwed.

 

[kyleb]

I'm not really worried about hitting the spot, or maneuvering in close. But getting stuck behind someone putting along at 80 mph level flight, that worries me a little. I still need to dig in to the notam, I'll get it figured out.

Pick an exit speed. If it is 80 mph, that means you've made a rational analysis, outside the pressures of the moment that if you can't maintain at least 80 mph, you'll exit the line. Don't try and hang in there at 74 mph if you've picked 80 as your minimum...

 

[PaulS]

No. Two wrongs do not make a right. If you can't stay behind them, you've got little choice but to start over, I'm afraid.

If you're directed to 36L/R you'll pretty much be given a turn direct to base from Fisk. The only thing they'll typically do is have you had to the dots to keep your speed up as much as possible unless there's someone right ahead of you.

IF you're directed to 27, then yes, they'll want you to usually to keep the entire pattern tight, inside the blue water tower and a short downwind-base-final turn.

Similarly if directed to 18 (Do not go north of the control tower to avoid the 27/9 pattern).

So again, first time attempting to fly this. The notam says maintain 90 knots indicated, if you can't fly that fast, fly your maximum cruise speed. If your max cruise speed is 80 mph, by the rules they've set up, that whole line will get slowed to 80 mph (69 knots) if there is continuous traffic, with no chance to recover, no wonder it turns into a cluster****. There should be a 70 or a 75 knot route for those who can't maintain 90 knots.

The short approach stuff, landing on a dot, not worried about that, I'll be practicing to make sure I'm sharp on it.

90 knots is a difficult speed for a lot of people. I've flown the Ripon/Fisk thing close to 25 times and the only time I was going 90 knots was when I was the only airplane around. ;-)

The big challenge is the accordion effect. You get a Champ doing 75 mph, and something faster closes right up on him before realizing the speed issue. The the RV/Mooney/Bo drops back to 70 mph to create some space, which means the next guy in line, who also got too close, has to slow to 65 to create a comfortable space, and pretty soon guy #4 in the single file line is completely screwed.

Pick an exit speed. If it is 80 mph, that means you've made a rational analysis, outside the pressures of the moment that if you can't maintain at least 80 mph, you'll exit the line. Don't try and hang in there at 74 mph if you've picked 80 as your minimum...

I need to work this through, but right now it looks like my exit speed would be 85 knots or 98 mph. I'm probably overthinking this, there are a lot of Cirrus flying in and I'm very skeptical that they are flying at 80 mph, hopefully a few will chime in.

 

[iamtheari]

I think you’re overthinking the speed thing. It’s not that big of a problem except when the arrival is already such a cluster that you wouldn’t want to be anywhere near it in the first place. The key is to be proficient in your plane so you can maintain ~90 knots without a lot of variation and keep your eyes outside the plane. If you do that and are always prepared to break off the arrival and start over in the event of someone messing it up for you, you’ll be fine. Even in a Cirrus.

 

[kyleb]

I think you’re overthinking the speed thing. It’s not that big of a problem except when the arrival is already such a cluster that you wouldn’t want to be anywhere near it in the first place. The key is to be proficient in your plane so you can maintain ~90 knots without a lot of variation and keep your eyes outside the plane. If you do that and are always prepared to break off the arrival and start over in the event of someone messing it up for you, you’ll be fine. Even in a Cirrus.

The stall speed of a Cirrus is about 60 knots. So 1.3 time that is 80 knots. If someone can't comfortably fly one at 80 knots, practice is necessary. Odds are good that some time at 80 knots is likely during the arrival. My "bail out" speed is 65 knots. I've been under 70 a number of times but never as slow as 65.

 

[flyingron]

Look, it's not easy for me either. My gear speed is only 87 knots, so I can do 90 with the gear up or 87 with the gear down. I make do with what I can.
But you're creating an unsafe anarchy if you start passing someone in the pattern.

 

[PaulS]

The stall speed of a Cirrus is about 60 knots. So 1.3 time that is 80 knots. If someone can't comfortably fly one at 80 knots, practice is necessary. Odds are good that some time at 80 knots is likely during the arrival. My "bail out" speed is 65 knots. I've been under 70 a number of times but never as slow as 65.

The 22 stalls at 64 kias (61 kcas) with full flaps. Flying level at say 80 knots with full flaps most likely will cause an engine cooling issue pretty quickly due to the increased power needed and slow speed. Probably a bad idea.

The 22 stalls at 74 kias (73 kcas) with no flaps. 1.3 times 74 is 96 knots.

The 22 stalls at 70 kias (67 kcas) with 50% flaps, 1.3 time 70 is 91 knots. In this configuration 80 knots is getting a little slow, 10 knots above stall speed, which is where the stall warning can start going off, at 70 knots I'm at least buffeting, if not stalled.

We've been talking about 80 mph, which is 69 knots.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Is this finally the only time where it is better to be in a C150 that has a normal cruise speed of around 90 knots? 2500 RPM, 75% power, no flaps, no issues, just another day flying……

 

[kyleb]

The 22 stalls at 64 kias (61 kcas) with full flaps. Flying level at say 80 knots with full flaps most likely will cause an engine cooling issue pretty quickly due to the increased power needed and slow speed. Probably a bad idea.

The RV heats up at those speeds too. I try to enter the arrival with a cool engine. That means a lengthy, gradual descent at reduced power to the vicinity of the starting point. That way, I can start with CHT's down below 325 and oil temperatures to right at 180. Ideally, the approach is moving "on speed", but when it isn't, I have margin to work with. Now, if we're talking the 50 mile in-trail X/C that is part of the extended procedure, heaven help us...

You can do something similar in the Cirrus, fly as much of the arrival as possible at 90, but be prepared for flaps when (not if) you have to slow down.

 

[Jim K]

If overheating is a real concern, and you can fly 135 with the gear down, id use the high arrival. Many of the cessna 195 guys do for that reason.

In an sr22 id be thinking pretty hard about it anyway. Flying below approach speed for an hour at 1000agl doesn't sound safe to me.

 

[tsts4]

I think maybe it's time to post in the POA General forum or on a Cirrus Forum and ask for advice in flying a 22 to OSH from those who have done it. Plenty of 22s fly into OSH every year and they seem to do it without issue.

 

[steingar]

You need a new CFI. Also, what's your flap speed? Mine is low, about 100mph. I can blow through it easily with the gear hanging out, all I have to do it point the nose down. So I REALLY don't like to deploy flaps until I know I'm going to land. Why I didn't pump some in while following a Skyhawk at a 80mph. But I know how to do slow flight in my airplane. You should know how to in yours. A rather important skill.

So, I'm going to Oshkosh, you all better stay out of my way. I talked this over with a pro instructor on Cirrus, he told me to pop in 50% flaps and fly it at 90 knots, he said if someone is flying it slower than that, pass them.

 

[mcdewey]

Doesn't help that the webinar presenter (the guy that's worked on the NOTAM for at least 25 years) suggested that if there was a hole in front of a slow airplane you were overtaking, to pass the slower airplane...
Pretty sure the NOTAM takes precedence over his suggestion but it's out there in the ether now and people will follow & quote it.
This year's arrival ought to be fun!

Great video but passing a slower plane even if I think there's a large gap? The presenter is way, way, way more experienced than me so maybe it makes sense for him, but, nope, I won't do that. Certainly not once I've reached RIPON. Maybe out at Puckaway Lake.

 

[sourdough44]

https://youtu.be/mNTmQhivfDk

‘The rules are not flexible’.

 

[EdFred]

Fly over at 12k and declare an emergency because your engine is a "teensy bit rough." Problem solved. Of course, they will wonder why you didn't pull the chute and made a normal landing...

 

[PaulS]

Fly over at 12k and declare an emergency because your engine is a "teensy bit rough." Problem solved. Of course, they will wonder why you didn't pull the chute and made a normal landing...

Was waiting for that from you, lol.

 

[EdFred]

Was waiting for that from you, lol.

I aim to please!

 

[PaulS]

You need a new CFI. Also, what's your flap speed? Mine is low, about 100mph. I can blow through it easily with the gear hanging out, all I have to do it point the nose down. So I REALLY don't like to deploy flaps until I know I'm going to land. Why I didn't pump some in while following a Skyhawk at a 80mph. But I know how to do slow flight in my airplane. You should know how to in yours. A rather important skill.

Flap speed is 150 knots max for 50%. I posted the stall speeds above, 50% flaps stall speed is 70 knots. 80 mph with no flaps is below stall speed, with 50% flaps 80 mph is the stall speed, at 100% flaps I have about a 5 knot margin and will be flying with the horn screaming.

Flying miles and miles on the brink of stall is rather stupid don't you think?

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Question. Assuming no weather issues (I know I know) is it a cluster from start to finish on Sunday?
Every time I have flown in, it has been around noon and it has been a S**tshow. I cannot believe there are not like 5 midairs an hour.

My plan is to target 7:00 AM. My Hope is that "most" people aren't trying to be Johnny on that spot or is that incorrect?
Just wondering if I will crap my pants less if I show up early rather than when 20 planes have groundlooped, geard up, and the holds are full.
Why do we do this again?

 

[PaulS]

Question. Assuming no weather issues (I know I know) is it a cluster from start to finish on Sunday?
Every time I have flown in, it has been around noon and it has been a S**tshow. I cannot believe there are not like 5 midairs an hour.

My plan is to target 7:00 AM. My Hope is that "most" people aren't trying to be Johnny on that spot or is that incorrect?
Just wondering if I will crap my pants less if I show up early rather than when 20 planes have groundlooped, geard up, and the holds are full.
Why do we do this again?

Have you done it your 22?

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Have you done it your 22?

No Just the Grumman. Same this year.
I rode in an RV 10 once. same experience.

 

[DFH65]

Question. Assuming no weather issues (I know I know) is it a cluster from start to finish on Sunday?
Every time I have flown in, it has been around noon and it has been a S**tshow. I cannot believe there are not like 5 midairs an hour.

My plan is to target 7:00 AM. My Hope is that "most" people aren't trying to be Johnny on that spot or is that incorrect?
Just wondering if I will crap my pants less if I show up early rather than when 20 planes have groundlooped, geard up, and the holds are full.
Why do we do this again?

Are you trying to talk me into going?

 

[steingar]

Flap speed is 150 knots max for 50%. I posted the stall speeds above, 50% flaps stall speed is 70 knots. 80 mph with no flaps is below stall speed, with 50% flaps 80 mph is the stall speed, at 100% flaps I have about a 5 knot margin and will be flying with the horn screaming.

Flying miles and miles on the brink of stall is rather stupid don't you think?

Approach speed at Oshkosh is 90 knots, well above the speeds you've posted. Yeah, if you get stuck behind a Cub you will probably have to circle back. And you can fly with the flaps hanging out and not have to worry about blowing through your flap speed if you do have to boogey. You should be able to fly at 90 knots all day.

 

[PaulS]

Approach speed at Oshkosh is 90 knots, well above the speeds you've posted. Yeah, if you get stuck behind a Cub you will probably have to circle back. And you can fly with the flaps hanging out and not have to worry about blowing through your flap speed if you do have to boogey. You should be able to fly at 90 knots all day.

Lol, steingar, this whole thing started when you said you had to fly it at 80 mph, which is 69 knots. 90 knots is fine, 80 mph is not.

 

[Grum.Man]

Question. Assuming no weather issues (I know I know) is it a cluster from start to finish on Sunday?
Every time I have flown in, it has been around noon and it has been a S**tshow. I cannot believe there are not like 5 midairs an hour.

My plan is to target 7:00 AM. My Hope is that "most" people aren't trying to be Johnny on that spot or is that incorrect?
Just wondering if I will crap my pants less if I show up early rather than when 20 planes have groundlooped, geard up, and the holds are full.
Why do we do this again?

I’ve usually planned to arrive Saturday or Sunday before 9am. Almost every year the weather has prevented that with low ceilings.

 

[steingar]

Lol, steingar, this whole thing started when you said you had to fly it at 80 mph, which is 69 knots. 90 knots is fine, 80 mph is not.

The deal went like this. I had some extraneous circumstances to deal with. The first of those was the weather was horrible leading up to the Show. It was really tough to get in, so when I finally made it past FISKE without getting diverted out to one lake or another I wanted to make it in. I had a passenger I had to get squared away as well.

Normally if I hit someone that slow I boogey back and try and again. Sooner or later (usually sooner) I get an approach where I don't have to do anything that skillful to make it to the runway. That year it just wasn't happening. Airplanes were circling everywhere and I doubted I was going to get another approach. So even when it went down to 80 I hung with it. Yeah, it was really uncomfortable, but I should be able to fly my airplane at that speed. It is a little harder when you're trying to keep that Skyhawk a half mile in front of you though.

 

[Grum.Man]

It happens in the high pattern as well. I can fly the venture at 90 knots but only with the gear up. Gear down I will overheat before getting within miles of the airport. Gear up I can’t see over the nose at 90 knots and the gear alarm is blaring in my ears. Even in the high pattern you have idiots doing 90 knots. I was trying to maintain the trailing distance doing maybe 110 knots 2 years ago when off to my right I got passed by a stagerwing. Somehow they let us continue, he flew past the final of 36 left then cut back in front of me. To get back to his runway.

 

[Captain Larry]

I haven’t the last few years as the weather wasn’t great VFR upon our arrival. If it’s real nice I’ll probably cancel but I might not. We’ll just have to wait and see. Also bear in mind that I fly in the Friday (and no later than Saturday) before the show before the traffic volume reaches critical mass. So retaining the clearance isn't really much of an issue.

It is very possible that I misheard the Webinar presenter the other night, who, I thought said....."filing instruments does not guarantee you will not have to fly the VFR procedure IF the field is VMC"....pardon my paraphrasing.....just sayin. I flew in about 35 or 40 years ago on an Instrument Flight Plan. Had to wait two hours in Racine for a clearance to launch.

Hopefully, my fellow aviators will respect the gauge of the Ripon to Fisk RR tracks, which is 4'-8 1/2". My landing gear is wider than that. While flying the tracks, seeing a plane to my right, and maybe even to my left......a bit disconcerting when I am directly over the tracks.

 

[iamtheari]

It is very possible that I misheard the Webinar presenter the other night, who, I thought said....."filing instruments does not guarantee you will not have to fly the VFR procedure IF the field is VMC"....pardon my paraphrasing.....just sayin. I flew in about 35 or 40 years ago on an Instrument Flight Plan. Had to wait two hours in Racine for a clearance to launch.

Hopefully, my fellow aviators will respect the gauge of the Ripon to Fisk RR tracks, which is 4'-8 1/2". My landing gear is wider than that. While flying the tracks, seeing a plane to my right, and maybe even to my left......a bit disconcerting when I am directly over the tracks.

That’s correct in my understanding. Most IFR flights end in a visual approach, and at Oshkosh the visual approach starts at (or before, now) Ripon. So even if you go through the process and actually get an IFR arrival slot, you might still end up in a VFR hold around a lake.

 

[Captain Larry]

So, I'm going to Oshkosh, you all better stay out of my way. I talked this over with a pro instructor on Cirrus, he told me to pop in 50% flaps and fly it at 90 knots, he said if someone is flying it slower than that, pass them. He also said to be careful when they start turning you to land if ask you to "tighten up" the turn.

Should be fun.

Of course.....cirrii would have the right of way, no question about that. And you can expect a tight base if cleared for 27 BUT, again, you can probably do what you want.