Oshkosh 2021 Notam - Airventure

[baboss]

Approaching from Madison on Friday midday it was clear from the ADSB traffic that everyone was heading for Puckaway to start in. We headed that way as we couldn’t pick up Fisk ATIS for sh*t and got in line. We had a guy shadowing us from Madison and he tucked in behind us. It worked out ok.

 

[bluesky74656]

Do you guys think it helped, hurt, or didn’t make a difference?

 

[Ed Haywood]

Today (Monday) at 0900 it was Green Lake. Not busy at all. I saw one plane. He cut in front of me halfway to RIPON.

 

[DFH65]

I have never been to OSH sadly. Soon though. So I have no experience flying it but I have watched many hours of live ATSB and listened to the live ATC this year and in years past. I think the transitions help. Yes it just seems to push the pile ups back but by the time the flow gets to Fisk it is more predictable for them. Rather than everyone loitering trying to squeeze in they have a place to go to get in line. They are obviously watching ADSB because they are calling out the would-be cutters.

 

[UngaWunga]

That's awesome if they're calling out people who cut in line.

 

[Lowflynjack]

That's awesome if they're calling out people who cut in line.

They absolutely did. NXXXX, you need to go back to the beginning.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I agree, cooperation is key, and I certainly don't have a recommendation for a better way to do it...but the scenario you outline above has almost 25% of the planes bailing out of the arrival procedure to accommodate that 75 KT aircraft.

And amazingly, that didn’t happen to us at all and the field was on hold due to mass arrivals.

The Cessna mass arrival was ended early by the tower. They launched from Fond Du Lac and still had a lot of planes on the ground there while the first group was landing. The tower had enough and called it off.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Easiest entry ever.
I think moving the entry point gives everybody a whole lot more distance to get zippered up into a line and get their spacing sorted out.

Obviously great weather probably played the giant Factor too but I got in Sunday mid-morning and I think my flight in would have been exactly the same if I was the only plane in the sky.

 

[Larry Korona]

Approaching from Madison on Friday midday it was clear from the ADSB traffic that everyone was heading for Puckaway to start in. We headed that way as we couldn’t pick up Fisk ATIS for sh*t and got in line. We had a guy shadowing us from Madison and he tucked in behind us. It worked out ok.

I had the exact same experience, also coming in from Madison, could not hear ATIS, saw all the traffic on my iPad and figured out that Puckaway was in use, which surprised me since I thought that it was not that busy. Was not happy about not hearing the transition point onATIS.

 

[bluesky74656]

And amazingly, that didn’t happen to us at all and the field was on hold due to mass arrivals.

The Cessna mass arrival was ended early by the tower. They launched from Fond Du Lac and still had a lot of planes on the ground there while the first group was landing. The tower had enough and called it off.

Did they do a second wave of Cessnas, or did everyone still on the ground at Fond du Lac have to do the arrival?

 

[iamtheari]

The use of ADS-B combined with the multiple transition points worked great. “N123, you will lead the group from Green Lake to Ripon.”

 

[Lowflynjack]

Did they do a second wave of Cessnas, or did everyone still on the ground at Fond du Lac have to do the arrival?

They had to do the arrival.

 

[Ed Haywood]

The use of ADS-B combined with the multiple transition points worked great. “N123, you will lead the group from Green Lake to Ripon.”

Certainly a game changer for SA in the air. Oshkosh arrival really hammers that home.

 

[danhagan]

Watching adsb exchange yesterday, they were using endeavor Bridge even when it was light. When it got even moderately busy they made up a new procedure and had everyone go 5 miles south of there to portage wi. At this rate next year the procedure will start at cmi and it'll be faster to drive.

I think my city is being considered for the new initial gate (El Paso, TX)

 

[iamtheari]

I did the contactless order, you had to do it by July 1. I think they send everything you need to just walk right in.

How did your flight in go?

 

[PaulS]

How did your flight in go?

It went well, I crossed Lake Michigan's west coast as they were on one runway and had airplanes in all the holds from the piper landing gear up. They were saying that it would be 20 minutes until they got both runways back, so I pulled back power and took my time getting there. They had called an "audible" and told us to start the conga line at Portage. So I headed there, by the time I got there, they had emptied the hold and things were moving. I found an airplane and followed it. I got runway 36L, yellow dot, dropped the mains right in the center of the dot. Took about 15 minutes to taxi to probably the furthest corner of the runway, shut 'er down and that was it. It was a fun experience.

 

[keen9]

I came in Sunday morning at not a great time (mass arrival 36 and 27 may have closed briefly). The new procedure worked well, but the main reason was calling people out, and being able to direct the holds (they used the holds!!!!). There were way fewer line cutters than 2019.

I do wonder if the Endever hold and Portage segment and hold will get added to the 2022 NOTAM!

 

[Grum.Man]

I came in Saturday morning during the rain so had little traffic to deal with. Breezed right in other than the tower trying to land me behind a 172, last minute switch to 36R. My only complaint with the new system is the constant switching. I think it confused some people, had people back tracking, and probably a lot of heads down time finding the relevant notam page. I am glad to hear they started policing the arrival though. Overall I didn't hear of anyone getting turned away so can't complain!

 

[flyingron]

For the folks that flew in over the weekend, how did the modifications to the NOTAM work out?

I didn't go out to fly it, but I hear that the one attempt to use one of the new staging points was a disaster.

 

[iamtheari]

I came in Sunday morning at not a great time (mass arrival 36 and 27 may have closed briefly). The new procedure worked well, but the main reason was calling people out, and being able to direct the holds (they used the holds!!!!). There were way fewer line cutters than 2019.

I do wonder if the Endever hold and Portage segment and hold will get added to the 2022 NOTAM!

In 2018, my main takeaway from 3-1/2 hours in the Green Lake hold was that they needed a controller for the hold. The 2021 NOTAM does not say that they implemented this idea, but the reality is that they did because they used ADS-B to identify and direct specific planes "don't come to Ripon, transition at Puckaway Lake" or "lead everyone else out of the Green Lake hold."

I didn't go out to fly it, but I hear that the one attempt to use one of the new staging points was a disaster.

Do you have more details on that complaint? Any lessons to be learned from where the procedure broke down for someone would be helpful in planning future arrivals.

 

[mcdewey]

In 2018, my main takeaway from 3-1/2 hours in the Green Lake hold was that they needed a controller for the hold. The 2021 NOTAM does not say that they implemented this idea, but the reality is that they did because they used ADS-B to identify and direct specific planes "don't come to Ripon, transition at Puckaway Lake" or "lead everyone else out of the Green Lake hold."


Do you have more details on that complaint? Any lessons to be learned from where the procedure broke down for someone would be helpful in planning future arrivals.

I heard that all those aircraft flying directly over Portage at 1800 feet caused issues for traffic arriving/departing at Portage. Since Portage field elevation is 811.3 ft. guess what the pattern altitude is.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I didn't go out to fly it, but I hear that the one attempt to use one of the new staging points was a disaster.

I had no issues. I made it to Endeavor Bridge right before they started saying if you hadn't made it there yet to go to Portage. We had to go Puckaway Lake one time and then on in. Last year I had to go around Green Lake a couple of times, so slight improvement for me.

 

[steingar]

I got on the ATIS a ways out, heard about the Puckaway lake procedure. Had to look it up, but I carry the NOTAM. Worked really, really well. Everyone got nicely spaced out, never even saw the guys in front of me. Yeah, the new procedure works great, and the ADSB is a real game changer. We'll see how well it works when planes get stacked up with weather, though.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I got on the ATIS a ways out, heard about the Puckaway lake procedure. Had to look it up, but I carry the NOTAM. Worked really, really well. Everyone got nicely spaced out, never even saw the guys in front of me. Yeah, the new procedure works great, and the ADSB is a real game changer. We'll see how well it works when planes get stacked up with weather, though.

ATIS seemed to have a lot of issues this year. I kept hearing people on the radio say they couldn't get it. I was on 22.75 with a nervous friend who was behind me, couldn't get ATIS, so I switched to FISK. Right after we passed Endeavor, they shut it down. Good timing for us!

BTW, I'll add that stretching out the line seemed to work better. Not only did it improve the number of circles around a lake I had to make, there were a lot less planes going around the lake. The last time, I was going around Green Lake and there were planes all around us... outside, inside, above, and even one guy really low beneath us. I was stressed, but not this year.

 

[flyingron]

The departure ATIS was pretty weak but I figure this was due to its temporary nature. Can't explain why the arrival one (which uses the normal OSH ATIS) was so problematic.

 

[tsts4]

We flew in on Friday the 23rd and I had every intention of flying the VFR arrival this year, but in the end just kept my IFR clearance. Just too easy flying the RNAV approach at 120kts.

 

[masloki]

Arrival ATIS is going to be hard at portage and 1800’, that’s 50 miles out. Having ADS-B in made it really easy to divine the transition start point but other guys will have to fly near OSH just to get turned back outbound. A mitigation would be to have the surrounding approach control (MKE, MSN, GRB) announce the transition every 5 minutes or so, even though they aren’t providing flight following.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I overflew the Arrival at 5K on Sunday afternoon enroute to Wausau. I tuned in ATIS and Approach and watched ADS-B. It was quite the show.

Approach was announcing the extension to Portage, but ATIS was still broadcasting Endeavor Bridge as the start point. I could see on ADS-B that about half the aircraft approaching from the North were headed direct to EB.

 

[Jim K]

I overflew the Arrival at 5K on Sunday afternoon enroute to Wausau. I tuned in ATIS and Approach and watched ADS-B. It was quite the show.

Approach was announcing the extension to Portage, but ATIS was still broadcasting Endeavor Bridge as the start point. I could see on ADS-B that about half the aircraft approaching from the North were headed direct to EB.

It's kinda BS that they preach "read the notam" so hard, and then make up stuff on the fly that's not in the notam. "No plan survives first contact with the enemy" but I fail to see what moving the start point to portage added other than confusion.

 

[kyleb]

Yeah, the new procedure works great, and the ADSB is a real game changer. We'll see how well it works when planes get stacked up with weather, though.

This is the key point, IMO. The old plan worked well in good conditions too. It only broke down in dodgy weather or other exceptional circumstances. Not sure the new procedures would be any different if the volume of incoming aircraft was greater than runway capacity.

 

[kve820]

We flew in Tuesday and it was a non event for us, saw 2 planes , couldn't hear the Atis at all , so we went to the bridge to start just in case, didn't see a plane until we were over fisk.

 

[Lowflynjack]

This is the key point, IMO. The old plan worked well in good conditions too. It only broke down in dodgy weather or other exceptional circumstances. Not sure the new procedures would be any different if the volume of incoming aircraft was greater than runway capacity.

At a minimum, it gives them two more lakes to have people hold at. They had planes hold at Endeavor and Puckaway vs. just Green and Rusk. Yes, it was good weather, but the volumes around each lake should be less no matter the conditions. I know in 2019 I went around Green Lake a few times and it was crazy seeing all of the planes in that hold with us.

 

[Mxfarm]

a plan is just one more thing to go wrong.

It's kinda BS that they preach "read the notam" so hard, and then make up stuff on the fly that's not in the notam. "No plan survives first contact with the enemy" but I fail to see what moving the start point to portage added other than confusion.