Oshkosh 2020

GRG55 said:
[...] I would expect the communications and coordination between EAA headquarters, sponsors and major vendors is pretty intense, as everyone is trying to plan ahead as best they can in what is probably the most uncertain environment since EAA was founded.
When a decision is made it won't be a surprise to any of them.
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They might be in contact with the bigger exhibitors like Garmin, Cirrus, Piper and the like. I however personally know a smaller vendor who wants to pull out as they don't want to take the chances of being exposed to so many people and the associated risks for them and their employees. Having all the expenses for a most likely much smaller crowd than usual is another factor.

They've be trying to reach EAA's exhibitor department for over two weeks: Nobody picks up the phone and no response to several e-mails or the messages left on their mailbox.
 
Mentioned before but worth repeating...

I suspect FAA can’t send the pink shirts. Volunteer or not.

That ends it if they can’t.

Won’t matter what EAA wants.
 
aggie06 said:
Wouldn’t lawyers have to prove that EAA or a vendor is the direct cause of a disease? How many people got sued after a cold or flu outbreak at a large event? How many employers get sued because their employee catches the flu at work? Wouldn’t the employee have to be able to prove they didn’t get it somewhere else? I think concerns about legal action are a bit far fetched. PR risks and low attendance risks are definitely something to consider, but I’m not sure tort liability should be that high on the list.
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Probably not a high risk for legal action although some there could be some exposure. With setup and breakdown it could easily be a 10-day affair for employees. If a company sends a group who are all healthy when they leave and sick when they return or within a day or two after, that would probably be enough to convince most juries. If one of those employees then dies... Yeah you might end up with suite to defend. And even if the suite is without merit, the company will still have to defend it.

But I suspect what's much more likely is the risk of not having staff to send for the event. If I worked for a company that wanted to send me to OSH this year, I would refuse even if it cost me my employment. My wife would do the same if it were her. We both have really good jobs, but some things are not worth the risk. If a company is asking staff to do something which they would rather quit than do, its probably time for that company to rethink what they're doing IMO.
 
There are few exceptions to what entities you can sue and for what. (Firearms manufacturers are one example, design or manufacturing errors aside). I don’t think EAA and most of the vendors fall into that exception. Basically, you can try to sue anyone for anything. Unless the legislatures pass some kind of COVID-19 lawsuit prevention, it’s all fair game.
-Not a lawyer
 
I know anyone can sue for anything, but companies have insurance to defend baseless lawsuits. If the CDC says avoid attending large events but you attend (instead of the CDC saying don't have them), that's a risk you took for attending. If the CDC says avoid people if you've been infected, and you go and infect others, that's not the fault of the organizers of an event that told everyone you're not allowed if you have an infectious disease. And again, what if someone gets a good old fashioned cold or flu - do they get paid by EAA too? I searched a little, but haven't found a case where someone argued the organizer of an event was the proximate cause of the flu they caught around the time they attended said event.

In my opinion, the lawsuit risk is a bit overblown. I believe the more likely concern of EAA is the size of the crowd and the PR risk if someone dies. This bad PR would be different than someone crashing an airplane during the show. If it's too small, it may cost more to put on than it brings in.

Not sure I understand the pink shirts comment. Why would FAA not be able to send them if they're still staffing towers across the country? Isn't the reason to have those guys there to increase safety?

I know I'm leaning toward going at this point. If the models keep getting better, it'll be a no-brainer.
 
aggie06 said:
Not sure I understand the pink shirts comment. Why would FAA not be able to send them if they're still staffing towers across the country? Isn't the reason to have those guys there to increase safety?
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Increase risk to them for travel, mixing crews needed for specific facilities to possibly bring it back to multiple of them, close quarters densely packed working tighter than they probably see in most of the facilities right now, etc etc etc.

Just sayin’, FAA has a stake in keeping controllers away from anything incompatible with the current guidelines as much as possible, and also tends toward not liking bad press... a bunch of sick controllers headed back home all over the country, after an event that’s unnecessary in terms of keeping the ATC system running overall, is a PR disaster for them.

Right now I’m seeing a number of (“essential”) businesses where if folks have to travel, the returning staff member is asked not to come back to the business office for 14 days after returning home. A friend was in that situation to travel to see a dying father. Maybe similar discussions are being had about returning controllers who volunteer. Hard to say. Some facilities probably can’t absorb them being out that long.

Just me pondering where the real bottlenecks are. Sadly or not, most of the other companies can influence staff to go work a crowd. But FAA and the controllers is one of the kingpin requirements that nobody thinks about as critical in the usual discussion about vendors and attendees. No pink shirts, no Buck Rogers.
 
denverpilot said:
Increase risk to them for travel, mixing crews needed for specific facilities to possibly bring it back to multiple of them, close quarters densely packed working tighter than they probably see in most of the facilities right now, etc etc etc.

Just sayin’, FAA has a stake in keeping controllers away from anything incompatible with the current guidelines as much as possible, and also tends toward not liking bad press... a bunch of sick controllers headed back home all over the country, after an event that’s unnecessary in terms of keeping the ATC system running overall, is a PR disaster for them.

Right now I’m seeing a number of (“essential”) businesses where if folks have to travel, the returning staff member is asked not to come back to the business office for 14 days after returning home. A friend was in that situation to travel to see a dying father. Maybe similar discussions are being had about returning controllers who volunteer. Hard to say. Some facilities probably can’t absorb them being out that long.

Just me pondering where the real bottlenecks are. Sadly or not, most of the other companies can influence staff to go work a crowd. But FAA and the controllers is one of the kingpin requirements that nobody thinks about as critical in the usual discussion about vendors and attendees. No pink shirts, no Buck Rogers.
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Fair point. I sure hope the FAA sees the refusal to send controllers to Oshkosh as another possible PR disaster. Can you imagine if they refused to send controllers and there was even half the normal traffic? Luckily, DHS guidelines label recreational flying as one of many essential items to keep running.
 
aggie06 said:
Fair point. I sure hope the FAA sees the refusal to send controllers to Oshkosh as another possible PR disaster. Can you imagine if they refused to send controllers and there was even half the normal traffic? Luckily, DHS guidelines label recreational flying as one of many essential items to keep running.
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Doubt it.

“Remain clear of Class Delta airspace.” is as safe as handling the traffic, for an event that doesn’t look very necessary to the general public in a normal year.

“Just a bunch of rich guys flying their airplanes to some small town in Wisconsin...”
 
Possum said:
https://www.accuweather.com/en/heal...ignificantly-reduce-spread-of-covid-19/703418

"According to the researchers' findings, “High temperature and high relative humidity significantly reduce the transmission of COVID-19.” An increase of just one degree Celsius and 1% relative humidity increase substantially lower the virus’s transmission, according to the data analyzed by the researchers."

Maybe by summertime things will be better.
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In my experience, OSH in July has an average high temperature of 200* C and a relative humidity of 300%.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
In my experience, OSH in July has an average high temperature of 200* C and a relative humidity of 300%.
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The mosquitoes will be sucking the 'rona right out of everybody.

--

Things might be better by summer, but decisions have to be made well in advance. That's the hard part.
 
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aggie06 said:
I know anyone can sue for anything, but companies have insurance to defend baseless lawsuits. If the CDC says avoid attending large events but you attend (instead of the CDC saying don't have them), that's a risk you took for attending. If the CDC says avoid people if you've been infected, and you go and infect others, that's not the fault of the organizers of an event that told everyone you're not allowed if you have an infectious disease. And again, what if someone gets a good old fashioned cold or flu - do they get paid by EAA too? I searched a little, but haven't found a case where someone argued the organizer of an event was the proximate cause of the flu they caught around the time they attended said event. [...]
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Granted, I am no lawyer. I understand however, that if employers would send their associates to a mass event against the clear recommendations of the CDC, this would constitute gross negligence of OSHA rules. In this case, the employer would face fines from the OSHA and also open up the possibility of civil lawsuits.

"Under OSHA, an employer owes its employees a duty to maintain a safe workplace. This “general duty” includes the taking of reasonable measures to prevent the spread of disease. Every employer, therefore, has the general duty to adopt basic policies and take action to prevent the spread of infectious diseases among its employees."
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/employers-need-an-infectious-74869/

More details on when an associates can sue their employers:
https://www.injuryclaimcoach.com/unsafe-work-practices.html


There have also been lawsuits against event organizers for not keeping the attendees safe and relatively minor health code violations. One example would be the SnowGlobe music festival, during which shuttle buses and generators supposedly led to elevated benzene levels:
https://edm.com/news/snowglobe-music-festival-benzene-lawsuit

There are even lawyers who are specialized in this kind of lawsuits: https://www.yourlawyer.com/event-crowd-management-lawsuit-attorneys/


The problem is, that the CDC directly advises to avoid mass events and that the course of the disease tends to be much more severe than a common flu. If the EAA and exhibitors would decide to disregard this, they would be on the hook for whatever comes out of this.

Of course, if the CDC would give an all clear, this would change. The probability of this happening is, in my opinion, however close to 0%.
 
My guess is the lack of major vendors will be the nail in the coffin for OSH 2020. My company had a booth at MODEX in Atlanta the week before the first lock downs even started. Even before the lock downs, the major players backed out quickly - too much liability for them. I'm talking about the folks that pay for the 8-10 footprint booths with multi-tier working automation solutions right as you enter the main entrance ($100k+ investments for the show). I took at glance at some of the booth prices at OSH. You can only see the ones that are still available, but a very small triangle shaped piece on a less-than-mainstream paved thoroughfare was around $15k. That makes me think that the displays along the main path leading to show center have to be well into the $40-50k+ range (at least). If just a few of the major vendors (Raytheon, Garmin, Cirrus, Ford, etc.) decide not to come and if there is any kind of refund on those vendor fees, it doesn't make money sense for EAA to have the show. At this point, the major vendors will likely have corporate policies that prevent them from doing the show which means no heavy influx of cash to carry the load of setting things up and paying the fixed costs of doing the show.

As much as I hate to say it, I don't expect to be sleeping next to the plane in HBC in July this year. :(
 
CJones said:
My guess is the lack of major vendors will be the nail in the coffin for OSH 2020. My company had a booth at MODEX in Atlanta the week before the first lock downs even started. Even before the lock downs, the major players backed out quickly - too much liability for them. I'm talking about the folks that pay for the 8-10 footprint booths with multi-tier working automation solutions right as you enter the main entrance ($100k+ investments for the show). I took at glance at some of the booth prices at OSH. You can only see the ones that are still available, but a very small triangle shaped piece on a less-than-mainstream paved thoroughfare was around $15k. That makes me think that the displays along the main path leading to show center have to be well into the $40-50k+ range (at least). If just a few of the major vendors (Raytheon, Garmin, Cirrus, Ford, etc.) decide not to come and if there is any kind of refund on those vendor fees, it doesn't make money sense for EAA to have the show. At this point, the major vendors will likely have corporate policies that prevent them from doing the show which means no heavy influx of cash to carry the load of setting things up and paying the fixed costs of doing the show.

As much as I hate to say it, I don't expect to be sleeping next to the plane in HBC in July this year. :(
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Not far off. Decent size tent off of show center was $30K a few years back.
 
denverpilot said:
And.. it begins.

The lawsuits from this thing are going to be plentiful and epic. LOL.
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Well if you think about the corporations being sued (Walmart, Hospitals, Grocery Stores, etc) - that sounds like the most epic Washington lobbying force ever. They will find a way to make civil suits related to Covid-19, especially related to critical infrastructure work, not applicable under federal and state law.

As to the Cruise ships - I never saw the appeal. Plus being held in the ultimate breeding grounds for this virus...that was epic stupid. Dang, they could have bought a old resort to isolate and it still would be about $5B cheaper than what its gonna cost them in losses and civil suits.
 
denverpilot said:
And.. it begins.

The lawsuits from this thing are going to be plentiful and epic. LOL.
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It's funny. People are protesting all over the country to end the social distancing mandates, and to let THEM decide how to live their lives - what to do, and what precautions to take (or not).
Until, of course, someone gets sick in the process - then it's the CDC's fault, or EAA's.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
It's funny. People are protesting all over the country to end the social distancing mandates, and to let THEM decide how to live their lives - what to do, and what precautions to take (or not).
Until, of course, someone gets sick in the process - then it's the CDC's fault, or EAA's.
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Yeah. I didn’t say it would actually make any sense. Just that the lawsuits will be epic entertainment! LOL
 
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