Oshkosh - 2019

kyleb said:
I think they are trying and missing the mark. The cry to "do something" has carried the day. The new arrival process <allegedly> will result in a nose to tail arrival procedure that is twice as long as the old one. It was bad enough when you were nose to tail with dissimilar aircraft for ~10 miles. Gonna be much longer now. Beyond that, they are planning on reducing service during MVFR, when they need to maintain service to get as many aircraft on the ground as they can.

All of this is in response to weather related issues beyond EAA's control. It is also the result of people not following the existing rules, so EAA/FAA are complicating things under the expectation that even more rules will make the miscreants behave better.
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I think your ending comments summed it up. It was my first flight to OSH, arriving on Monday morning at 0730 to find the hold already established at Green Lake. And it went from bad to worse. Maybe only the new folks follow the rules but Green Lake was a disaster. Planes cutting each other off, wrong altitudes etc. My flight plan was 2:10 to OSH, once shut down my hobbs was at an even 4 hours. I almost threw in the towel and went on to FDL. Kind of glad I will be flying the mass Cherokee arrival to avoid the new NOTAM growing pains
 
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kyleb said:
I think they are trying and missing the mark. The cry to "do something" has carried the day. The new arrival process <allegedly> will result in a nose to tail arrival procedure that is twice as long as the old one. It was bad enough when you were nose to tail with dissimilar aircraft for ~10 miles. Gonna be much longer now. Beyond that, they are planning on reducing service during MVFR, when they need to maintain service to get as many aircraft on the ground as they can.

All of this is in response to weather related issues beyond EAA's control. It is also the result of people not following the existing rules, so EAA/FAA are complicating things under the expectation that even more rules will make the miscreants behave better.
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You've clearly heard more about the proposed changes to the NOTAM than I have. Upon further review, I can definitely see your point; the people cutting infront and then slowing down to a more "comfortable" 65kts just because, are definitely part of the real problem. Obviously, no one can control the weather and I know that was a HUGE factor in the mess last year. I thought about the Cherokees2OSH - I may have to take a closer look.
I'm beginning to think that it's just a matter of attitude and people needing to know (and test) their performance profiles before "just going for" Oshkosh. Last year may have just been a fluke.
 
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The biggest issues with the RIPON procedure occur when something happens that restricts ground operations (usually an incident that closes one runway). What they should do is just close the arrival procedure down with an EFC time or the like. None of the "holding" procedures work worth a darn.
 
flyingron said:
The biggest issues with the RIPON procedure occur when something happens that restricts ground operations.
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Like bringing the B-1 in at 0730 the first decent day (Monday) after weather :(

The heck with it, everyone has to muster at FDL daily for 3 separate mass arrivals from FDL. Everyone has to reserve a slot within one of the three daily departures.

Who cares if it doesn't work lol
 
Mooney Fan said:
Like bringing the B-1 in at 0730 the first decent day (Monday) after weather :(

The heck with it, everyone has to muster at FDL daily for 3 separate mass arrivals from FDL. Everyone has to reserve a slot within one of the three daily departures.

Who cares if it doesn't work lol
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If we’re doing things that don’t work, then let’s just get rid of the tower and arrival procedures. “Oshkosh traffic, Stinson two-zero-broken-tailwheel is fifty miles south, straight in runway 36 right, any traffic in the area please advise.”
 
flyingron said:
The biggest issues with the RIPON procedure occur when something happens that restricts ground operations (usually an incident that closes one runway).
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Agree. 5 (?) years ago when the Breezy crashed off of 36, they did a horrible time of managing the available runway. First, they closed the airport to departures and arrivals for a long time. Like an hour or two. Then, when the field re-opened, 36L & R both remained closed (which made some sense until they cleared the accident area), but I sat in a departure line for 2+ hours while they endlessly cycled the two Trimotors on 27. Every 15 minutes you had 2 trimotor takeoffs, two trimotor landings, a handful of inbounds and a trickle of outbounds. The occasional warbird would break into line to do a joy ride, and the B-17 was in the mix somewhere.

Here's a hint. Stop the joyrides, Trimotor rides, and B-17 rides in that situation and get the attendees in and/or out of the field. Horrible utilization of a limited resource (the sole remaining runway).
 
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I've stood out on PAPA for years watching the trimotors. They're not impacting the situation. They use a quarter of the runway, know what they are doing, and get in and out fast. Yes, it's annoying watching other people fly when you don't but they aren't th problem.
 
It seems to me they need to prioritize clearing the skies over airshow ops on certain days. Having a fustercluck of planes circling a lake with varying amounts of fuel and patience along with deteriorating weather conditions is a recipe for absolute disaster for both the people involved and the event in general. I'm sure that the FAA has them by the huevos and if anything happens they will pull the plug. Making the arrival longer and more complicated isn't the answer, either, since a good portion, based on videos I've seen, don't seem to follow the NOTAM to a T. I'm hoping that I can experience the FISK arrival.
 
dreyna14 said:
I'm hoping that I can experience the FISK arrival.
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FISK arrival looks like it will be the same, but instead of starting at Ripon and going to Fisk, we'll start at Waupun, then Ripon, then Fisk. If it's marginal VFR, they'll only allow ADS-B Out equipped planes to come in and you'll fly the FISK approach.

Mooney Fan said:
Like bringing the B-1 in at 0730 the first decent day (Monday) after weather :(
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They address this as well. Last line below.

These are the proposals:

Arrival Procedures (FAA Operations)
  • Creating a new arrival gate (VFR waypoint, GPS and visually identified) that is further out than Fisk in order to facilitate consistent spacing prior to arrival at Fisk.
  • A new depicted (GPS defined waypoints) VFR Fisk arrival overlay that is for marginal VFR weather (1,000- to 1,500-foot ceilings) operations. Aircraft that will be allowed to use this procedure must be ADS-B Out equipped.
  • A raised minimum ceiling for all other aircraft operations on the Fisk arrival to 1,500 feet AGL.
  • A procedure to address temporary airport closures and provide a “bail out” track that enables an orderly transition from the final inbound leg to KOSH to KFLD. Aircraft arriving KFLD along the defined route will either land at KFLD or be directed back to the initial for KOSH depending on airport closure status.
  • –The FAA should create a revised policy for mass arrivals that restricts the arrival day/time to the planned time only with limited ability to shift due to weather. If the arrival slot is unsuitable due to weather at the designated time (mass arrival group is airborne) of the slot, then the mass arrival group should split up and arrive via the normal NOTAM procedure.
EAA Process Improvements
  • Expand aircraft parking to the south and improve parking management strategies to maximize use of the space. By 2020, EAA will achieve a “no aircraft turned away” condition for general aviation camping parking, weather and ground water saturation concurring, and explore means (e.g., a potential reservation system or other incentives) to shift arrivals to days with lower volume.
  • An extensive educational campaign to highlight arrival informational tools, weather planning and preparedness, and best practices during arrival operations. Distribution will include a potential online training course (with incentives), Chapter Video Magazine, online webinars, EAA magazines, EFBs like ForeFlight, and other web resources. Member incentives for participation in training/education will be developed.
  • A text messaging arrival update tool for ATC that will be available to attendees.
  • Work with the FAA to create an overhead break protocol that enables ATC to determine if overhead operations can be authorized at any given time.
  • Encourage military aircraft to favor arrivals during air show waivered airspace times.
 
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I just changed my reservation at the University for an arrival on Saturday the 20th, leaving on Tuesday the 23rd. I just now realized the official start date of the airshow is Monday the 22nd. Is there going to be anything going on there the 20th and 21st?
 
Anyone from NY,CT, MA, PA want to fly out to camp at Oshkosh? I have a beautiful (ok old and cramped), young (fine, 1966), strong running C150 that I could use. I am close to KPOU.
 
Groundpounder said:
I just changed my reservation at the University for an arrival on Saturday the 20th, leaving on Tuesday the 23rd. I just now realized the official start date of the airshow is Monday the 22nd. Is there going to be anything going on there the 20th and 21st?
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There is plenty to see. Arrivals, aircraft on the grounds, the museum, etc.
 
Can confirm I'll be at Oshkosh 2019 :). I get there Thursday and head back on Sunday.

@eman1200 @Ryanb You guys gonna be there this year??
 
I probably already posted this somewhere in this thread, but my plan is to arrive Sat 7/20 and leave Sun 7/28. That of course depends weather. It also depends on if they have enough work to keep me busy. Last year we knocked out all of the air-to-air photography by the last Friday and I decided to head home due to storms along the way.

I'll be wearing a bright yellow vest with EAA Photo and a giant number on the back and I'll let you guys know the number when I get there. I met a few of you last year and hope to meet more this year.
 
Can anyone suggest a good spot to overnight in the central LP of Michigan? Cheap 100LL and a decent-ish hotel nearby are about all I require.

Seems like Gladwin, MI might be a good option. KGDW
 
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Groundpounder said:
Can anyone suggest a good spot to overnight in the central LP of Michigan? Cheap 100LL and a decent-ish hotel nearby are about all I require.

Seems like Gladwin, MI might be a good option. KGDW
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@One Short used to be based there, but I don't know if she's around any more to share intel.

There's a spot where there's two airports close to each other where one is the county airport and one is the city airport. I stopped at one of them, but I can't remember which one! :rofl: They had a good price on 100LL, free malts, courtesy car, and very friendly and helpful people. I would recommend it, if I could just remember which one it was... Maybe @EdFred can help me out here.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
@One Short used to be based there, but I don't know if she's around any more to share intel.

There's a spot where there's two airports close to each other where one is the county airport and one is the city airport. I stopped at one of them, but I can't remember which one! :rofl: They had a good price on 100LL, free malts, courtesy car, and very friendly and helpful people. I would recommend it, if I could just remember which one it was... Maybe @EdFred can help me out here.
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You're thinking
Clare: 48D - has the ice cream, courtesy car, allows camping/cooking on the field, and cheapish 100LL - currently $3.98/gal

Clare County: 80D - never been there, and doesn't have anything that I'm aware of.
 
Can't wait- already have the fever. Just trying to decide whether to park in Vintage or the North 40, since I have a vintage plane now.

We came in last year on Saturday IFR and then broke it off to try the FISK arrival because it was being reported as good vis. It was drizzly MVFR and I will never do that again. Way too much traffic density for low visibility AND looking for the tracks, etc.
 
zbrown5 said:
We came in last year on Saturday IFR and then broke it off to try the FISK arrival because it was being reported as good vis. It was drizzly MVFR and I will never do that again. Way too much traffic density for low visibility AND looking for the tracks, etc.
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If you have an IFR slot, I would always suggest using it unless the weather is at least 2000 feet and 5 miles and expected to improve.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
@One Short used to be based there, but I don't know if she's around any more to share intel.

There's a spot where there's two airports close to each other where one is the county airport and one is the city airport. I stopped at one of them, but I can't remember which one! :rofl: They had a good price on 100LL, free malts, courtesy car, and very friendly and helpful people. I would recommend it, if I could just remember which one it was... Maybe @EdFred can help me out here.
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I ended up picking Cadillac, KCAD. There is a Hampton Inn nearby, as well as an Enterprise car rental facility.
 
Groundpounder said:
I ended up picking Cadillac, KCAD. There is a Hampton Inn nearby, as well as an Enterprise car rental facility.
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Cadillac is a fun place... Got my multi rating there with Tom Brady (and the tires were fully inflated ;)), and I've flown the Cubs at Northwoods Aviation on both skis and floats.

If you want a less formulaic experience, there's a German guy in town who owns a few adjacent storefronts and runs a butcher shop, a deli, a restaurant, and a hotel. The food is fantastic. http://chefhermann.com

I haven't yet stayed at his hotel - We generally gather at McGuire's Resort in the winter, and the Cadillac Sands in the summer. McGuire's is reasonably nice... All the Sands has going for it is that it's on the lake, if you're into that sort of thing (we kind of are, since we park a seaplane at the dock each day).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Cadillac is a fun place... Got my multi rating there with Tom Brady (and the tires were fully inflated ;)), and I've flown the Cubs at Northwoods Aviation on both skis and floats.

If you want a less formulaic experience, there's a German guy in town who owns a few adjacent storefronts and runs a butcher shop, a deli, a restaurant, and a hotel. The food is fantastic. http://chefhermann.com

I haven't yet stayed at his hotel - We generally gather at McGuire's Resort in the winter, and the Cadillac Sands in the summer. McGuire's is reasonably nice... All the Sands has going for it is that it's on the lake, if you're into that sort of thing (we kind of are, since we park a seaplane at the dock each day).
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Dad and I are staying at the Hampton Inn cause I have a bazillion Hilton points, so its free. That German deli looks awesome. I was gonna just Uber to the hotel, but we're getting in early enough that we may want to do some exploring, and $35/day is pretty good for a rental car.
 
Groundpounder said:
Dad and I are staying at the Hampton Inn cause I have a bazillion Hilton points, so its free. That German deli looks awesome. I was gonna just Uber to the hotel, but we're getting in early enough that we may want to do some exploring, and $35/day is pretty good for a rental car.
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Be sure to go by the high school to read the plaque commemorating when KISS played there. I came upon it by accident on a morning run when doing the Tom Brady multi thing.
 
I've arrived when it was really IFR (900 OVC) exactly once. It's sort of surreal breaking out over the show like that.
 
Groundpounder said:
If it is VFR, do IFR arrivals get priority over VFR's?
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I have seen it that way, yes. They will have traffic in the pattern do 360’s or go out and get behind inbound IFR traffic. The notam reads though that in VMC the Fisk is strongly encouraged.
 
If the field is open VFR, you'll get dumped out on final (usually 27 or sometimes 9) to merge in with the rest of traffic. So while you do skip the Ripon->OSH transition, you don't really get any priority when it comes to landing.
 
flyingron said:
If the field is open VFR, you'll get dumped out on final (usually 27 or sometimes 9) to merge in with the rest of traffic. So while you do skip the Ripon->OSH transition, you don't really get any priority when it comes to landing.
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Ok, thanks. Guess I'll pray for a nice 800ovc day when I'm trying to get there!
 
flyingron said:
If the field is open VFR, you'll get dumped out on final (usually 27 or sometimes 9) to merge in with the rest of traffic. So while you do skip the Ripon->OSH transition, you don't really get any priority when it comes to landing.
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But, that also means that you won't have any delays. They do typically bring the IFR traffic in on the RNAV 27, and whatever traffic is coming to 27 from Fisk will be worked around the IFR - So, you'll probably have someone making a short approach to the green dot (and maybe a second making a short approach to the orange dot) in front of you, and then there'll be some people extending downwinds to land immediately behind you.
 
OK now that our move from Virginia to Florida is complete, I can start planning for OSH 19. Just did my BFR and got my IFR currency back so I can get out there and shake more rust off. Camping gear is good to go so got all I have to really to think about is what beer we'll be bringing -- might bring some homebrew this year (if I do it will be an Oktoberfest and an Oatmeal Stout).

We flew in IFR via the GPS 27 on Saturday last year and it was the easiest arrival into OSH we've ever made -- except for the actual landing on 27 which was the worst I've made at OSH as the howling direct crosswind at touchdown kinda caught me flat-footed, no pun intended.
 
I’ve had IFR slots the last two years and both years I broke off and did the VFR approach instead. Too much fun. Granted, I did not get stuck in that cluster hold last year.

Don’t they keep you on the approach until you call field in sight? I’ve listened to guys tell the tower controllers they wouldn’t say it because they didn’t want to have to do a lap in the pattern.
 
Don't know. The only time I came in IFR it really was IFR. I flew it like any other instrument approach.
I think they pressure you to at least take a visual approach if not outright cancel (you can remain on the straight in, I think).
 
flyingron said:
Don't know. The only time I came in IFR it really was IFR. I flew it like any other instrument approach.
I think they pressure you to at least take a visual approach if not outright cancel (you can remain on the straight in, I think).
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Ditto. I think the NOTAM usually states if it's VFR they "recommend" canceling and joining the VFR arrival but otherwise I think the just bring you straight in.
 
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