Osh transition start for next year

Mxfarm

Mxfarm

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
870
Location
KPTS, 1K4, H17
Display Name
Display name:
Marc
So where should the 'transition' begin next year? This was Sunday, July 24th a bit after 1:00 pm. The conversation going on @ Madison approach could have been interesting.

IMG_6337.jpg
 
Bloomington, IL (KBMI) might be sufficient.
 
I-294 around Chicago was no picnic going home Saturday.
 
I had no idea it was that long. What is the flight time for that conga line - 1 hour, more if get waved off at FISK? If you get waved off at FISK, do you have to go ALL the way back to Madison?
 
These new transitions just make things worse in my opinion. It just lengthens the time aircraft are in close proximity of each other. Unless they put some active metering out beyond Fisk, it does nothing.
 
flyingron said:
These new transitions just make things worse in my opinion. It just lengthens the time aircraft are in close proximity of each other. Unless they put some active metering out beyond Fisk, it does nothing.
Click to expand...
Need a pre FISK for FISK?
 
Interesting.

To be fair, each arrow on that map looks to cover an area about 5 miles long by 3 miles wide (by my eyeball estimation). Wonder how it really was this year as compared to last year?

Always thought they should have some kind of reservation system. Give everyone a different time slot to hit. Help to meter things out a bit.
 
fasteddie said:
Interesting.

To be fair, each arrow on that map looks to cover an area about 5 miles long by 3 miles wide (by my eyeball estimation). Wonder how it really was this year as compared to last year?

Always thought they should have some kind of reservation system. Give everyone a different time slot to hit. Help to meter things out a bit.
Click to expand...
They already can’t fly a steady 90 knots at 1800 MSL. In 2018 they were three wide and two high around Green Lake, plus one guy was going clockwise. You want to trust 10,000 people who can’t handle an airspeed and altimeter or tell right from left to do all that and also show up at a designated time over target? I admire your faith in your fellow man. :)
 
Mxfarm said:
So where should the 'transition' begin next year? This was Sunday, July 24th a bit after 1:00 pm. The conversation going on @ Madison approach could have been interesting.

View attachment 109383
Click to expand...
Is that a transition from the notice? I didn’t go this year but don’t recall a southern entry point. I thought Endeavor Bridge was the farthest out. Maybe this shows a mass arrival group?
 
iamtheari said:
Is that a transition from the notice? I didn’t go this year but don’t recall a southern entry point. I thought Endeavor Bridge was the farthest out. Maybe this shows a mass arrival group?
Click to expand...

No, not a mass arrival. At 1700 Sunday when we got in line Fisk approach was telling everyone to start at Portage. No, Portage is not mentioned in the notice. No, Madison approach did not like it; they were telling everyone to stay at least 15 miles away from Madison.

The best solution I can come up with is to take the last numeral in your tail number, and that is your assigned hour to arrive on Saturday or Sunday. I.e. if your last numeral is an 8, your arrival time is 0800-0859. Sorry Canadian friends, I don’t know what to do about you.
 
Part of the problem on Sunday were the multiple airport closures due to incidents that would send everyone back around the various lake holds, and they closed just 9/27 at least once for special arrivals (such as Doc, which needed to back taxi because they weren't about to taxi in the grass... saw a King Air nearly get stuck in the grass).

Each closure was a hot mess of traffic.
 
@ one point weren't both runways closed Sunday? That would make a cluster of even a great plan.
 
iamtheari said:
They already can’t fly a steady 90 knots at 1800 MSL. In 2018 they were three wide and two high around Green Lake, plus one guy was going clockwise. You want to trust 10,000 people who can’t handle an airspeed and altimeter or tell right from left to do all that and also show up at a designated time over target? I admire your faith in your fellow man. :)
Click to expand...

Eh, not so much a "time on target" like they were planning to drop bombs on SOS Brothers. More like what @Van Johnston called out below.

Just something to try to get people to space out throughout the day. Maybe even ask the special arrivals like Doc to schedule their arrival.

I am a mere bystander, watching the show from the ground and via FlightRadar24. But it does seem like 75% of folks flying into the show all descend on the field at the same time.

That said, if weather moves in, who knows, I guess all the scheduling goes out the window.

I'm impressed year-after-year that the VFR arrivals work as good as they do.

Van Johnston said:
The best solution I can come up with is to take the last numeral in your tail number, and that is your assigned hour to arrive on Saturday or Sunday. I.e. if your last numeral is an 8, your arrival time is 0800-0859. Sorry Canadian friends, I don’t know what to do about you.
Click to expand...
 
Would a slot reservation system help? That's what we do with OGC at PTK in December.
 
We just went in ifr in a pc12. No problem at all.
 
I would guess flying IFR to Air Venture would get you a lot of practice for holding pattern work. :)
 
Sunday was a mess for sure. Talked to a lot of people that swore they'd never do that again. On my way home Thursday, Madison Approach were a bunch of rude f$%^. Spent more time saying "Unable" to VFR traffic than they were on frequency with arrivals.
 
Wagondriver said:
we got cleared in just like any ifr flight. No hold, no issues. We had a slot reserved, it was Wednesday morning about 9:00
Click to expand...

I think I have gone into Oshkosh every possible way other than driving (Fisk, warbird arrival, IFR in IMC, IFR in VMC, FLD) - this year i came in IFR in VMC and other than racing a major storm to the field, it was a non event. 10 minutes after parking (on the HGI ramp), it was a full blown deluge…

E32F1996-06FF-4DEF-9737-9770934429D1.jpeg
 
Mxfarm said:
@ one point weren't both runways closed Sunday? That would make a cluster of even a great plan.
Click to expand...

While we were watching up in the N40, just south of the Green Dot, the airport completely closed three times, and RWY 27 closed one additional time (for Doc's arrival). They very nearly had to close 27 again when the King Air (a lovely, simply beautiful late 70's KA that looked brand new) taxied left into the grass instead of hanging a right and staying on the hard surface. They damn near had the throttles to the stops to get it moving again.
 
iamtheari said:
They already can’t fly a steady 90 knots at 1800 MSL. In 2018 they were three wide and two high around Green Lake, plus one guy was going clockwise. You want to trust 10,000 people who can’t handle an airspeed and altimeter or tell right from left to do all that and also show up at a designated time over target? I admire your faith in your fellow man. :)
Click to expand...
How about staggered TO's from area airports with max airspeed on approach and in the pattern..

Those that can't follow basic directions would be turned away and the rest landed in the same order they took off.

That would take some strategic planning but it would certainly reduce the traffic jam.
 
Why one arrival for 3 runways? How about 3 arrivals? A north/west arrival, a west/south arrival, and a south/East arrival. 3 separate runways for each.

Default assignment based on last departure airport. If you know the prior year’s direction of arrival of all planes, you can distribute the following year’s arrival assignments (sectors) equally into roughly 1/3rds. More controllers, more frequencies, less congestion (reduces the bottleneck when invariably at least one day is jacked due to WX). And if a RWY closes, 2/3rds continue on instead of 100% stacking up.
 
At what point does it get so far away that your aircraft radio can't pick up the transmission of where to start!
 
How long before airplanes are going to be running low on fuel? If you get waved off do you get back in line or fly to another airport like Appleton.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Why one arrival for 3 runways? How about 3 arrivals? A north/west arrival, a west/south arrival, and a south/East arrival. 3 separate runways for each.

Default assignment based on last departure airport. If you know the prior year’s direction of arrival of all planes, you can distribute the following year’s arrival assignments (sectors) equally into roughly 1/3rds. More controllers, more frequencies, less congestion (reduces the bottleneck when invariably at least one day is jacked due to WX). And if a RWY closes, 2/3rds continue on instead of 100% stacking up.
Click to expand...

They typically use 18/36 for special arrivals. Warbirds (that can't fly down at 90 knots), mass arrivals, things like that. The way the warbird arrival is setup, they can split aircraft to it from the normal flow. You just turn right from the Fiske arrival and you are on left base for 36. I had them do this to me in a T-34. I had taken the aviation jewelry lady for ride an figured that a T-34 is basically a Bonanza, so fly the normal arrival. Next thing I know, "Grey T-34 turn right heading XX contact tower on XXX.X for warbird arrival." Well, if you insist. :D
 
They can pull you out to the 36R/18L without putting you on the warbird arrival. They probably thought you wanted to do a break (though silly coming in from Ripon in something like a T34). .
 
I arrived on Friday, the 22nd and the line was more manageable. The sky was busy, but everyone was following the NOTAM and maintaining 90 knots. The big problem was the wind from 200 degrees at 17 knots, gusting to 24 and I was given runway 27 in a taildragger! The pucker factor was high, but I made it to parking and the plane was reusable without repairs!
vak2e47l.jpg

TbIkCPyl.jpg
 
There is a diminishing return on the Airventure VFR arrival procedure. How much of the total time Airventure is open for arrivals are there problems? Of the problems, how much would they be mitigated by the arrival process being more complicated? What other problems would arise from the "improvements"?
 
I went in on Thursday before the show stated. Didn't even slow down (for a Cherokee) doing the procedure.

next year I may come in on the Thursday of the show. Although after two years I've made a bunch of early arrival friends. Decisions decisions.
 
The things that mess things up are when an incident closes a runway. Further, even if the incident is NOT on the runway itself, there's lots of stuff that heads over to that side of the field, and a second incident will completely close the airport (as happened) even if there's nothing on any of the runways.

There's nothing the approach procedure is. Everybody needs to go park it somewhere until the airport repoens.
 
flyingron said:
They can pull you out to the 36R/18L without putting you on the warbird arrival. They probably thought you wanted to do a break (though silly coming in from Ripon in something like a T34). .
Click to expand...

They gave me a left base entry to final. No break.
 
Pinecone said:
They gave me a left base entry to final. No break.
Click to expand...
Then there's no "warbird arrival" component to that at all. That's the standard approach to that runway.
 
No matter what if there's heavy wx before the show things are going to get bolluxed up. You could start the conga line at Minneapolis and you'd still get problems. As it is I used the procedure last year and this year with no problems at all. Kind of a pain doing slow flight for a half hour, but there are worse things. As far as I know there's never been midair at Oshkosh.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top