OSH - T-6 goes into Lake Winnebago Saturday 7/29 morning

There was nothing wrong with that landing in the video. T-6 on pavement in Oshkosh, that’s a keeper.
 
Little over a week before this, I was visiting my son and he told me the day I was leaving that he was going to be doing spin recovery in the T6A that morning (he's an IP for that aircraft, but this sortie was without a student and for his own proficiency). Even as I'm just getting started in a Piper, I asked my CFI to put us into one so I could experience it. Juan Browne stated in his video that spin training is no longer taught in civilian flight training, which makes no sense to me. I damn sure want to know how to avoid it- and what to do to in the event I fail...

I looked up his flight profile later that day
 
I don't remember it been a required item for PPL, at least in the time I've been in the flying business. Which admittedly isn't long compared to some of the dinosaurs on here, maybe they can expand on when the FAA required spin training to attain a PPL. The spin requirement used to be a niche item for CFI initial (I did it in a clapped out 152 the flight school pretty much dedicated to the task). I guess that is what they're talking about when they say it isn't "taught/required anymore".

Yes, I am a proponent of upset flying and recovery being part of PPL. But I'm a crazy purist (put my money where my mouth is and took a pretty steep lifetime paycut for it too). Most people just want to stay upright all the way to their jet job retirement. There's also a ton of people in the recreational space who would quit if aerobatics were a stated requirement of proficiency demonstration for a PPL, to include fully developed spins. The FAA struck a balance. Can't blame them, it's not for everybody, and we very much use aerobatics and aircraft upsets in primary (T-6) as a screen for markers of "manifestation of apprehension", which is our code for homeboy/girl ain't cut out for this thing we are asked to do, let alone downrange in much more expensive and nationally valuable equipment.

I don't agree with CFIs not having to demonstrate fully developed spins in their CFI initial, though given the ERAU nonsense and the state of aircraft maintenance labor landscape these days, maybe that's not the worst thing in civilian land after all.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I don't remember it been a required item for PPL, at least in the time I've been in the flying business. Which admittedly isn't long compared to some of the dinosaurs on here, maybe they can expand on when the FAA required spin training to attain a PPL.
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I obtained the PPL in 89. My CFI advised spins were not required at that time, but he did have me demonstrate spin recovery including under the hood.
 
tobnpr said:
Little over a week before this, I was visiting my son and he told me the day I was leaving that he was going to be doing spin recovery in the T6A that morning (he's an IP for that aircraft, but this sortie was without a student and for his own proficiency). Even as I'm just getting started in a Piper, I asked my CFI to put us into one so I could experience it. Juan Browne stated in his video that spin training is no longer taught in civilian flight training, which makes no sense to me. I damn sure want to know how to avoid it- and what to do to in the event I fail...
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The spin requirement was gone by the time I started training in 1971, though my instructor did give me a lesson on spinning and recovery.

The impetus of the removal was the realization that people mostly weren't dying from being unable to recover from a spin; they were dying from stalling too low for recovery FROM the spin. So the FAA changed the emphasis on stall/spin PREVENTION...the "I damn sure want to know how to avoid it" you mentioned. If you avoid the stall, you avoid the spin.

I said "...people mostly weren't dying from being unable to recover from a spin..." because people were dying DURING SPIN TRAINING. My homebuilt accident database from 1998 through 2021 has about 25 cases where a pilot started an aerobatic maneuver and wasn't able to recover. None of these were airshow accidents, just pilots doing aerobatics. Only about eight of these were in airplanes not normally flown in aerobatics.

So the FAA increased the emphasis on stall avoidance and eliminated the spin-training requirement. The requirement remains in Canada, and my understanding is that their stall/spin rate is about the same as ours.

I think *taking* spin training is a good way to increase your piloting skills. But I feel the same way about taildragger training. You'd hear a LOT of screams if the FAA started requiring a few hours of taildragger time during flight instruction....

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
The spin requirement was gone by the time I started training in 1971, though my instructor did give me a lesson on spinning and recovery.

The impetus of the removal was the realization that people mostly weren't dying from being unable to recover from a spin; they were dying from stalling too low for recovery FROM the spin. So the FAA changed the emphasis on stall/spin PREVENTION...the "I damn sure want to know how to avoid it" you mentioned. If you avoid the stall, you avoid the spin.
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Indeed. And that was the argument made by the T-6 pilot embedded video clip within that blanco T-6 video (a YT video featuring another YT video, gotta love the internet). I concur with his premise that spin recovery proficiency is moot at pattern altitudes. It is the spin onset/recognition of the incipient rotation stall indication that is more important, and self-limits the entire control-departing sequence in the first place. If that carveout/training approach also keeps a cohort from not giving up on flying because they can't stand flight in 3 dimensions, then twofer I suppose.
wanttaja said:
I think *taking* spin training is a good way to increase your piloting skills. But I feel the same way about taildragger training. You'd hear a LOT of screams if the FAA started requiring a few hours of taildragger time during flight instruction....
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Oh I'd be screaming too alright, but not for the reason you think. I disagree with the equivalence btw. I don't find learning the anachronism of pushing a grocery shopping cart from the castering-end particularly germane to piloting. Commercial insurance would just skyrocket if you added TW, and given the already discussed landscape in airline-hegemonic CFI land, that's just a recipe for a ton more ground loops in this space.

I don't want the subrogated added cost to training. I am of the opinion aerobatics and formation have a more legitimate claim to the piloting skill bar-raising than tailwheel (the military agrees at least), and I still don't support the former two being included in the PPL ACS either, for the same cost reason.
 
Speaking of pattern altitudes , about the only thing that could save your behind when stall/spinning at pattern altitudes would be a BRS.
Something like this ( looks like pattern altitude to me ) …

 
She did not have only 200 hours, that was Gryder pulling that out of his nether regions like usual. And his assessment of stalls/spins, and Juan’s, shows they probably haven’t actually done it. And there’s nothing wrong with a tail low wheel landing, either. And I’d like to meet the T-6 pilot who has never bobbled one on. I do T-6 checkouts for insurance, transition training for new T-6 pilots, and have flown T-6s for 15 years. Scott Perdue’s discussion on it was respectful. With the caveat that we still don’t know what happened, because it could have been a control failure, or a pax whose foot got stuck at the base of the stick, or a prop failure, or…nobody knows here, not really. But with that caveat, his take on it was the only one I’d put any stock in. He actually flies them, too.
 
FlightofTwo said:
She did not have only 200 hours, that was Gryder pulling that out of his nether regions like usual. And his assessment of stalls/spins, and Juan’s, shows they probably haven’t actually done it. And there’s nothing wrong with a tail low wheel landing, either. And I’d like to meet the T-6 pilot who has never bobbled one on. I do T-6 checkouts for insurance, transition training for new T-6 pilots, and have flown T-6s for 15 years. Scott Perdue’s discussion on it was respectful. With the caveat that we still don’t know what happened, because it could have been a control failure, or a pax whose foot got stuck at the base of the stick, or a prop failure, or…nobody knows here, not really. But with that caveat, his take on it was the only one I’d put any stock in. He actually flies them, too.
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Probably more productive to ignore them and not give them clicks than watch their dumb videos and point out errors. They and their fans will never admit they get anything wrong.
 
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Lindberg said:
Probably more productive to ignore them and not give them clicks than watch their dumb videos and point out errors. The abs their fans will never admit they get anything wrong.
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I usually let other people click and then tell me. :D But the downside to not correcting their errors is that people then are free to think “a 200 hour pilot who didn’t belong in a T-6 as evidenced by this terrible landing couldn’t recover from a basic spin which is no big deal”, and then they pass that info along until it’s gospel. Which isn’t right or fair… normally I try to ignore it. Once in awhile one comes along that makes that harder.
 
MauleSkinner said:
My training was in 1982-83. My instructor was stupid enough to show me one. I practiced them solo without his knowledge.
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And that is why I would never buy a flight school plane … albeit these days with ADSB/GPS it would be much harder to pull this off ….
 
Warmi said:
And that is why I would never buy a flight school plane … albeit these days with ADSB/GPS it would be much harder to pull this off ….
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Other than the attitude gyro, spins don’t put a lot of stress on the airplane.
 
I had a question about this flight, not even about the spin issue. Backing up more, what type of maneuvers were planned, had been done, & doing?

No I don’t own a T-6, you got me there. What I’m getting at, is how much does one normally ‘hang it out’, on an intro flight of sorts? There were those on the ground, with witness limitations, then ads-b data. I didn’t delve into details, thought I heard some of the ads data showed speed on the slower side?

No doubt a very tragic accident.
 
sourdough44 said:
I had a question about this flight, not even about the spin issue. Backing up more, what type of maneuvers were planned, had been done, & doing?
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No one knows for sure (or isn’t talking) as to what was planned for the flight.

Scott Perdue’s analysis of the ADS-B seems to indicate that once the got over the lake, she attempted a roll and lost control in the roll (and Scott would know).

If you look at just the ADS-B track on Flight aware, you won’t see it, but some of the other ADS-B servers have better data fidelity to see the altitude/heading deviations.

No one alive knows why she lost control. Could have been a bad entry, could be passenger involvement, could be failed control cable or something jamming controls. Lots of possibilities.

Aerobatics can be fun, but have a lot of hidden risks that can bite you.

One reason I won’t do aerobatics with a passenger.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It's because there is no other info right now to give us an idea of what the initial cause was.

I just watched Juan's video and while I'm not a huge fan of him, I thought it was one of his better ones. He obviously did more research on the pilot than DG did and kept it respectful while addressing what appears to be known -the airplane spun in from almost 4000'.
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Whilst we can say pilot error and be correct, it's possible that a terrified passenger becomes the pilot, and pulls back hard on the stick. It's happened. The T6 snaps over about five times quicker than my Skyhawk, and a fully developed spin is nearly instant.
 
PPL Spin Training is not the issue here. There is a world of difference between awareness/recovery in a spam can or typical aerobatic aircraft and a T6. I routinely practice spins at 3000 feet in my Decathlon. That would be foolhardy in a T6.

Total pilot hours is also not the issue. Hours in type might be. I don't know that number, but do recall reading the family had only owned this aircraft only a short time.

Here is an article on spin training from an instructor pilot with 50 years experience in the T6: https://www.t6harvard.com/pilot-stories/spinning-the-t6-scully-levin/ One point got my attention: an unintended spin at a higher than normal entry speed often results in the aircraft snapping over on its back.

Mechanical causes should not be ruled out just yet. A close friend of mine who collects and restores vintage aircraft looked at the accident aircraft a few years ago for purchase. At the time, it was very much a "project" aircraft. He expressed misgivings about the condition at that time.
 
Ed Haywood said:
PPL Spin Training is not the issue here. There is a world of difference between awareness/recovery in a spam can or typical aerobatic aircraft and a T6. I routinely practice spins at 3000 feet in my Decathlon. That would be foolhardy in a T6.

Total pilot hours is also not the issue. Hours in type might be. I don't know that number, but do recall reading the family had only owned this aircraft only a short time.

Here is an article on spin training from an instructor pilot with 50 years experience in the T6: https://www.t6harvard.com/pilot-stories/spinning-the-t6-scully-levin/ One point got my attention: an unintended spin at a higher than normal entry speed often results in the aircraft snapping over on its back.

Mechanical causes should not be ruled out just yet. A close friend of mine who collects and restores vintage aircraft looked at the accident aircraft a few years ago for purchase. At the time, it was very much a "project" aircraft. He expressed misgivings about the condition at that time.
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'In extreme cases, the inertial pitching moment could exceed the capability of the elevators to introduce an aerodynamic pitching moment in order to effect a recovery from the spin. It was for this reason that our Pilot’s Handling Notes included a statement to the effect of “Recovery from a spin might be facilitated by the occupant of the rear seat bailing out first”.' :eek2:
 
Piperonca said:
'In extreme cases, the inertial pitching moment could exceed the capability of the elevators to introduce an aerodynamic pitching moment in order to effect a recovery from the spin. It was for this reason that our Pilot’s Handling Notes included a statement to the effect of “Recovery from a spin might be facilitated by the occupant of the rear seat bailing out first”.' :eek2:
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Yikes.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Whilst we can say pilot error and be correct, it's possible that a terrified passenger becomes the pilot, and pulls back hard on the stick. It's happened. The T6 snaps over about five times quicker than my Skyhawk, and a fully developed spin is nearly instant.
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From what I understand, I don't think this was a 'terrified' passenger. Guy was heavily involved with warbirds. But, even the most well mannered passenger can accidentally touch something critical at the wrong time resulting in disaster.

A Navy Captain on a fam ride once 'inadvertantly ejected' himself because he didn't know where to put his hands when the pilot started doing high-g maneuvers. The whole airplane would have been lost if the ground crew had properly set up the ejection seat sequence valve...
 
MauleSkinner said:
My training was in 1982-83. My instructor was stupid enough to show me one. I practiced them solo without his knowledge.
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I was a rated rotary wing aviator adding a fixed wing rating in 1985. I did spin training in a 172 over Monterey Bay at night. Might as well have been under a hood. Invaluable training. Glad I benefitted friend it.
 
Spins were not required when I did my PPL in 1969, but my CFI felt they were good insurance, and we did a couple in a 1960 Cessna 150.
First, he demonstrated, then I did 2 or more, until he was satisfied that I reacted quickly and properly.

On the ground, the Examiner asked if Ozzie had taught me spins, I affirmed.

In the air, power off stall, he kicked the left rudder full to the limit, and I recovered from the resulting spin. He complimented Ozzie for my training.

Years later, I did an hour of aerobatic flight in a Cessna Aerobat, and became comfortable with my skills for recovering from any unusual attitude that turbulence might produce. Small Cessna's are pretty benign for stall recovery.

A T 6 is a completely different skill.
 
geezer said:
Spins were not required when I did my PPL in 1969, but my CFI felt they were good insurance, and we did a couple in a 1960 Cessna 150.
First, he demonstrated, then I did 2 or more, until he was satisfied that I reacted quickly and properly.

On the ground, the Examiner asked if Ozzie had taught me spins, I affirmed.

In the air, power off stall, he kicked the left rudder full to the limit, and I recovered from the resulting spin. He complimented Ozzie for my training.

Years later, I did an hour of aerobatic flight in a Cessna Aerobat, and became comfortable with my skills for recovering from any unusual attitude that turbulence might produce. Small Cessna's are pretty benign for stall recovery.

A T 6 is a completely different skill.
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I don’t know .. but I think that experiencing a few spins 20-30 years ago without staying current won’t make you any more prepared …
 
So, it appears that unless she was publicly lying, Devyn had 500 hours in June 2022. Maybe DG at least needs to see if his “sources” maybe have an agenda and didn’t give him good intel.

IMG_3333.jpeg
 
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Warmi, you seem to have missed my last paragraph.

An hour of training which included multiple spins, snap rolls, loops, and positive G rolls. The only wings level flight that hour was regaining lost altitude.

Additionally, my ANNUAL flight reviews included unusual attitude recovery under the hood, by my choice, not the rules. When BFR's became the law, they were less stringent than I was voluntarily doing. My PPL instructor was an above and beyond the rules advocate, and I agreed with his reasoning.

Years later, I experienced a clear air vortex encounter, and recovered without any ill effects beyond a slam to my head from the violent toss we experienced.
 
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