OSH - AIRCRAFT DOWN SOUTH OF ULTRALIGHT AREA

[Grum.Man]

I'll be honest, were they to happen to me, I'd be suing the gyro company, its owner, and the pilot's estate at a minimum. If it's true they didn't have liability insurance on that thing they deserve to be put out of business. Mooney guy shouldn't be left holding the bag for someone else's mistake no matter how underinsured he is. For that matter, even if he was overinsured you can bet his insurance company is going to sue everyone to get their money back. To be sure though, I'd just want to be square. The grandson of the helo pilot (passenger? I might have that wrong), who had to watch grandpa become a victim of negligent homicide, is the one who anyone with deep pockets (eaa) needs to worry about.

I can't say this mindset is right or wrong that's for your own moral judgement but I can promise you every time someone does this the only people who loose are the ones that weren't involved. Ticket prices will go up, engine prices will go up, aircraft prices will go up, our insurance rates will go up or our coverage will be dropped all together. Everyone tries to profit from mistakes and it isn't right in my book. Maybe it's easy to say now since it hasn't happened but if a loved one of mine was killed in an accident, money isn't going to bring them back or heal my heart. I would hope the same family would have the same forgiveness in their heart if the roles were reversed.

 

[Grum.Man]

I don't disagree with there being an elevated risk. I wouldn't say the probability of incurring damage is high, but maybe higher than a normal flight. Just flying in, many aircraft are converging on one point. However, most aircraft going into KOSH are not allowed to fly over the crowd, the camping areas, or even other planes. The ultralight area has some old planes, with sketchy engines at best, flying right over people and planes consistently. This needs to change.

I didn't want to rile up the alternate engine faithful but I was thinking the same thing. You have the highest risk airplanes at the show flying non stop over the most occupied grounds. Same goes for the helicopter rides as well though. Regardless Pioneer field is a good fit even if it sacrifices a bit of foot traffic. I really liked the express trams this year so I imagine something similar in higher numbers could be routed to Pioneer.

 

[Warmi]

I'll be honest, were they to happen to me, I'd be suing the gyro company, its owner, and the pilot's estate at a minimum. If it's true they didn't have liability insurance on that thing they deserve to be put out of business. Mooney guy shouldn't be left holding the bag for someone else's mistake no matter how underinsured he is. For that matter, even if he was overinsured you can bet his insurance company is going to sue everyone to get their money back. To be sure though, I'd just want to be square. The grandson of the helo pilot (passenger? I might have that wrong), who had to watch grandpa become a victim of negligent homicide, is the one who anyone with deep pockets (eaa) needs to worry about.

Why Gyro company ?

 

[Jim K]

Why Gyro company ?

I picked up somewhere that the gyro was owned by the manufacturer and was giving demo rides. I cannot find that anywhere now though so I may be mistaken. My point being that the owner of the aircraft, if it is true they didn't have liability insurance, should be held responsible.

 

[Llewtrah381]

I picked up somewhere that the gyro was owned by the manufacturer and was giving demo rides. I cannot find that anywhere now though so I may be mistaken. My point being that the owner of the aircraft, if it is true they didn't have liability insurance, should be held responsible.

I believe you’re right re the demo ride.

Also, I’m not sure but I think the pax killed in the helo MAY have also been a demo rider. Regardless, that’s another significant casualty of this insurance situation: the Mooney was just “stuff”. The gyro pax apparently walked away. The helo pilot died but was the pilot. The gyro pilot was significantly injured but was the pilot. The estate of the helo pax may be the biggest potential claimant here - with no insurance to cover that. I’m sure both pax signed waivers - will be interesting to see if those hold water in this situation.

Personally, I think EAA does share some responsibility. The Ultralight fly zone is the only place with repetitive takeoffs and landings, far closer to the crowd than any other runway, and with “demos” being done by people with no more than a morning briefing, from what I understand. For the rest of OSH, nobody can do aerobatics or formation flying except with documented training. Only “airshow” people (and “special arrivals”) can do low approaches or anything else than a standard landing.

Yes, it’s the “EXPERIMENTAL Aircraft Association” and these are the essence of “experimental” but when the Fisk controllers were telling people to break off and return to Endeavor because they got within 2 miles of another plane with the smoke around, the Ultralight area is an extreme outlier. (BTW: visiting the Fisk controllers was a highlight this year)

Seems easy to fix: “basic” Ultralight and small rotorcraft arrivals and departures only plus a block of time for a handful of specific, documented demo pilots to do sensible demos. Plus MAYBE cordon off a “safe zone” within the S40 (not sure how to fix Scholler but I’m sure there are possible options).

 

[Lowflynjack]

I believe you’re right re the demo ride.

Also, I’m not sure but I think the pax killed in the helo MAY have also been a demo rider.

I'm sure someone with more information will let us know for sure. I have a friend who sells and trains in Magni Gryos. He quit going to OSH a couple of years ago. One of his complaints was that they were no longer allowed to give demo rides from the ultralight field. They had to taxi across and take off from the main runway and this took way too much time. I don't remember seeing any doing that this year though. I wonder if that changed.

 

[Pinecone]

I can see more liability on the EAA if someone on the ground had been injured,

 

[skyking3286]

Seems like the idea of personal responsibility vs. corporation responsibility is a debatable subject. A reminder to insure to a level where you would feel comfortable in self-insuring hull damage if anything happens over and above that level. Also liability insurance is a no-brainer for your estate. And the law firms will do very well if there is a court action following. I wasn’t comfortable watching that UL pattern on the Vintage webcam that day either. And regardless of all the comments, there is a empty chair at the dining room table for a couple of families.

 

[kmacht]

I’m not sure how EAA doesn’t have some liability here. Yes it’s an air show and there are risks but EAA was the one who told the Mooney where to park and even though the ultralight field is uncontrolled EAA still defined the pattern and set the schedule of who and what flies when. They chose to allow the ultralights to fly over top of where they told the damaged Mooney to park. They should quickly move to make him whole and hope that ends up being the extent of it although I suspect there will be lawsuits from both the helicopter and gyro estates forthcoming as well.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

Is this the only time an aircraft in the UL pattern crashed into the camping area? Has one ever crashed into Scholler?

If the answers are Yes and No, I don’t see how this one accident necessitates a change in anything, other than the need to be seen as “doing something about it.”

 

[flyingron]

We only had one DC-3 ground loop in the paved ditch but that didn't stop the FAA from moving the crowd / camping line back forty feet.

 

[kmacht]

Is this the only time an aircraft in the UL pattern crashed into the camping area? Has one ever crashed into Scholler?

If the answers are Yes and No, I don’t see how this one accident necessitates a change in anything, other than the need to be seen as “doing something about it.”

I don’t think any have crashed into an area that the general public had access to during the show until this one. There have been many takeoff and landing accidents on the ultralight field itself and a number of landings needed to be made in the emergency grass strip in the middle of camp scholler.

 

[tyndall]

Is this the only time an aircraft in the UL pattern crashed into the camping area? Has one ever crashed into Scholler?

If the answers are Yes and No, I don’t see how this one accident necessitates a change in anything, other than the need to be seen as “doing something about it.”

Scholler has a big roped off strip under the flight path where you can't park. Regardless of one crashing, the EAA recognized a risk in the past and still mitigates it today.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

For that matter, even if he was overinsured you can bet his insurance company is going to sue everyone to get their money back.

I just want to emphasize to everyone how incorrect this is. The insurance company is not going to lift a finger to get their money back for any amount less than a million, even in cases of GROSS and obvious negligence, it's not worth it to them and they would rather stick the claim on their insured rather than get the money back and absolve their customer. BTDT. Subrogation is a myth in everything that most of us fly.

 

[tsts4]

I just want to emphasize to everyone how incorrect this is. The insurance company is not going to lift a finger to get their money back for any amount less than a million, even in cases of GROSS and obvious negligence, it's not worth it to them and they would rather stick the claim on their insured rather than get the money back and absolve their customer. BTDT. Subrogation is a myth in everything that most of us fly.

Not in my experience. AIG tried to subrogate against MT propellers in accident I had a few years ago and it was for a lot less then $IM.

 

[Lowflynjack]

Is this the only time an aircraft in the UL pattern crashed into the camping area? Has one ever crashed into Scholler?

If the answers are Yes and No, I don’t see how this one accident necessitates a change in anything, other than the need to be seen as “doing something about it.”

Yes and No. But I do think it highlights something a lot of people always thought was dangerous and was going to happen sooner or later. I take photos at a local drag strip sometimes. The public can stand right up next to a 4 foot tall chainlink fence while these cars race by 4 feet from them. Has anyone been hurt or injured? No. Will the racetrack get sued when it does happen? Yes

If EAA doesn't 'do something about it' the next lawsuit may shut them down. You knew there was a danger. It has happened before. What did you do to address it? Nothing?

 

[flyingron]

We had an ultralight land in the "gated community" this year. While this area was technically open to the public, we hadn't yet started parking aircraft in it when it occurred.

We've had planes end up in the overrun areas at the ends of 36 (where there aren't any parkers/campers). The FAA got real antsy about us parking things out on the taxiway papa (during Sloshkosh) or down off the end of Papa (a few years when we got full up in Vintage).

 

[Llewtrah381]

Is this the only time an aircraft in the UL pattern crashed into the camping area? Has one ever crashed into Scholler?

If the answers are Yes and No, I don’t see how this one accident necessitates a change in anything, other than the need to be seen as “doing something about it.”

First, I wonder how many accidents need to happen AT OSH for this perspective to change. There have been enough at other airfields to justify prudent crowd safety measures, in my mind.

Second, the UL area isn’t just a place where people are coming and going to the show in their ULs - a “Fisk” for ULs. It is that plus more. And it’s not just straight-up touch-and-go’s either. It’s more or less a demo area for the performance envelope of small aircraft, which means, by definition, they’re doing things beyond basic pattern stuff. But unlike the extreme performances during the air shows (set back 500ft from the crowd), these “performers” in the UL area don’t need any special qualifications to do so; my understanding is all they need is to attend a morning briefing out there. Limiting activities to straightforward arrivals and departures (including for demo flights for potential customers where the “demo” occurs outside the OSH Delta) plus some performance demos by qualified people in an organized way seems reasonable. As it is, the maxim “what you tolerate will happen” has come back to bite them.

 

[Pinecone]

I just want to emphasize to everyone how incorrect this is. The insurance company is not going to lift a finger to get their money back for any amount less than a million, even in cases of GROSS and obvious negligence, it's not worth it to them and they would rather stick the claim on their insured rather than get the money back and absolve their customer. BTDT. Subrogation is a myth in everything that most of us fly.

The worst people in aviation...

I just got done dealing with them all... Every last one of the *******s in aviation ended up on my doorstep. This past April a dingus in the hangar behind me left his door open and unattended during a windy evening and it blew out the shared wall onto my plane. The damage could have been a LOT...

www.pilotsofamerica.com

Disgree. They may not go to the point of taking anyone to court, but they will pursue other insurance companies and entities. They are in the business to make money, this is money IN to them

And, they have a whole department of lawyers who get paid even if them are not doing anything. So no added cost for them on the legal side, unlike for an individual.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Disgree. They may not go to the point of taking anyone to court, but they will pursue other insurance companies and entities. They are in the business to make money, this is money IN to them

And, they have a whole department of lawyers who get paid even if them are not doing anything. So no added cost for them on the legal side, unlike for an individual.

They did not subrogate in my case which was clear negligence, said it wasn't worth their time. Which ended up leaving the claim on my record, costing me thousands in subsequent insurance premiums.

There is still an added cost to their lawyers of filing fees, the potential for arbitration and court appearances also have a cost. It also takes their resources away from other higher cost cases. So no, they will not subrogate in a vast majority of cases, thus leaving the insured with the claim, after they've signed away their right to sue the negligent party.

Insurance will not take care of their insured, no matter how many lies they tell upfront in the process.

 

[tsts4]

They did not subrogate in my case which was clear negligence, said it wasn't worth their time. Which ended up leaving the claim on my record, costing me thousands in subsequent insurance premiums.

There is still an added cost to their lawyers of filing fees, the potential for arbitration and court appearances also have a cost. It also takes their resources away from other higher cost cases. So no, they will not subrogate in a vast majority of cases, thus leaving the insured with the claim, after they've signed away their right to sue the negligent party.

Insurance will not take care of their insured, no matter how many lies they tell upfront in the process.

Again, not my experience whatsoever with any my insurance coverages, especially my aircraft policy. Sounds like you need a better underwriter.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Again, not my experience whatsoever with any my insurance coverages, especially my aircraft policy. Sounds like you need a better underwriter.

They are not my underwriter anymore. I'll go ahead and name names at this point since it was 3.5 years ago. It was US specialty insurance and Wings was the broker. Never again for either of them.

 

[tsts4]

They are not my underwriter anymore. I'll go ahead and name names at this point since it was 3.5 years ago. It was US specialty insurance and Wings was the broker. Never again for either of them.

I have AIG through Falcon. That said I think that while we can both make general statements about our experiences pro and con, I also think that there's a truism that everyone's experience may differ even when using the same companies and rarely are there absolutes.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I got ****ed without lube by those people. That's an absolute.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I got ****ed without lube by those people. That's an absolute.

Sounds like my homeowners insurance! You lost over $40K? Here's a nice check for $7500!

 

[Hengelo]

Everyone tries to profit from mistakes and it isn't right in my book.

I think there is room for damages that does not cross the line into "every trying to profit."

 

[midwestpa24]

Everyone tries to profit from mistakes and it isn't right in my book. Maybe it's easy to say now since it hasn't happened but if a loved one of mine was killed in an accident, money isn't going to bring them back or heal my heart.

I don't necessarily disagree with you in the big picture, but in the case of this Mooney owner I differ. He flew into Oshkosh with a fully functioning airplane, and through absolutely no negligence of his own had to take the bus home and has lost an expensive piece of personal property. I don't see any attempt to profit, but just to be made whole again.

The owner has posted in another forum that his hull insurance isn't sufficient to cover the total loss and will probably exit flying. According to him, his insurance and attorney have already looked into the odds of recovering anything from the gyro operator and decided there isn't anything to get. It sounds like he is just going to wash his hands of it and walk away, counting himself lucky it was just a hunk of aluminum that was lost and not his or his family's lives.

 

[Grum.Man]

I don't necessarily disagree with you in the big picture, but in the case of this Mooney owner I differ. He flew into Oshkosh with a fully functioning airplane, and through absolutely no negligence of his own had to take the bus home and has lost an expensive piece of personal property. I don't see any attempt to profit, but just to be made whole again.

The owner has posted in another forum that his hull insurance isn't sufficient to cover the total loss and will probably exit flying. According to him, his insurance and attorney have already looked into the odds of recovering anything from the gyro operator and decided there isn't anything to get. It sounds like he is just going to wash his hands of it and walk away, counting himself lucky is was just a hunk of aluminum that was lost and not his or his family's lives.

I agree every circumstance is different. From what I can tell that was a 100k gyro so I'd have to imagine there is enough money there to cover the gap in insurance coverage. I am not against him going after that money. It's the people that tack on "emotional damages" in an attempt to capitalize on an accident that bug me.

 

[midwestpa24]

I agree every circumstance is different. From what I can tell that was a 100k gyro so I'd have to imagine there is enough money there to cover the gap in insurance coverage. I am not against him going after that money. It's the people that tack on "emotional damages" in an attempt to capitalize on an accident that bug me.

WAS a 100K gyro...that was not insured. Sounds like the aircraft itself was held by an LLC with no other assets. Could pursue the pilot of the gyro, but sounds like he has little in the way of assets either.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Pilots: "Aviation is so expensive because greedy people sue over every little thing, and it's heartless and cruel to go after a deceased pilot's estate like Kobe Bryant's family did"

Also pilots: "SUE THE **** OUT OF THE GRIEVING FAMILY"

 

[Lowflynjack]

My friend who flies and instructs out of gyros has trouble getting insurance. It can be $5K per gyro or more, and he has multiple gyros. Buying a $100K+ gyro, plus insuring it, especially for instruction and solo of a student makes it almost impossible to make a profit. On the other hand, one accident and his business is over

 

[Warmi]

I believe jus the basic liability insurance is cheap , at least compared to hull insurance so perhaps , just as in automotive world , we should require basic liability insurance of some kind.

 

[Grum.Man]

My friend who flies and instructs out of gyros has trouble getting insurance. It can be $5K per gyro or more, and he has multiple gyros. Buying a $100K+ gyro, plus insuring it, especially for instruction and solo of a student makes it almost impossible to make a profit. On the other hand, one accident and his business is over

Budd Davisson who is the highest time most renowned Pitts pilot in the world said he pays nearly 5k for insurance on a 65k Pitts S-2A. Isn't the saying if a business doesn't make a profit it's a hobby..

 

[Lowflynjack]

Budd Davisson who is the highest time most renowned Pitts pilot in the world said he pays nearly 5k for insurance on a 65k Pitts S-2A. Isn't the saying if a business doesn't make a profit it's a hobby..

It is strange that we can operate a vehicle with no insurance. I have my plane insured for the most money they would allow, but the only legal requirement I have to do so is my hangar agreement with the City.

In the case of the Mooney owner, he says he may never fly again. I might be in that bucket if my plane was totaled and I didn't have insurance.

 

[wanttaja]

I believe jus the basic liability insurance is cheap , at least compared to hull insurance so perhaps , just as in automotive world , we should require basic liability insurance of some kind.

That's something we need to establish here. Just saying "I pay $5,000 a year for insurance" doesn't help unless we know the poster is talking JUST liability, or liability and hull coverage.

Just renewed the liability coverage on my Fly Baby; it was about $300. Priced hull coverage when I bought the airplane, they wanted something like $1,000/year additional. Passed on it. Considering I've owned the airplane for 27 years and the plane is worth about $8-$10K, figure my decision was probably right.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Llewtrah381]

I believe jus the basic liability insurance is cheap , at least compared to hull insurance so perhaps , just as in automotive world , we should require basic liability insurance of some kind.

I have both a Piper Warrior and a Magni M-16 gyro. Both are insured for $80K, $1M, $100K/pax. The Warrior was $758 this year for all of that (I can’t see a breakdown of hull vs liability). The gyro was $5,441, of which $3,928 is hull and $1,513 is liability. Just the liability for the gyro is twice the total cost for the Warrior.

Oh - and my deductibles for the gyro are $2,500/$1,000 in/not in motion. Zero for both for the Warrior.

I have about 2,500 hours TT including 300 in Magni gyros and a Commercial Gyro rating. I’m 66.

Gyro insurance isn’t cheap, even for liability. Personal opinion: although a lot of the hull cost is high because it’s hard to “partially break” a gyro, the liability is up there because of the Pilot community’s culture. Hard to believe a 2-place gyro with a 17 gal gas tank can cause more liability claims than a Warrior but the market says that’s true.

 

[Llewtrah381]

My friend who flies and instructs out of gyros has trouble getting insurance. It can be $5K per gyro or more, and he has multiple gyros. Buying a $100K+ gyro, plus insuring it, especially for instruction and solo of a student makes it almost impossible to make a profit. On the other hand, one accident and his business is over

He actually had to put one in a “club” in order to get insurance that would cover someone solo. Because it’s experimental, options such as renting were very limited and the “club” route ended up being the best. But that went away after about a year and now he goes bare - at first host for people soloing but now for everyone.

But the bigger point is, getting insurance for these is REALLY tough. We may be down to one underwriter in the US. And although some places have tried making gyros for rent, at least in the past they have struggled to get coverage for solo pilots. My son lives up near Denver and someone was renting them up there (on leaseback?). I called and checked about it and I could go dual but not solo - even with a Commercial.

Getting some into Primary category may help but, for the foreseeable future, it seems like insurance will be a problem.

 

[schmookeeg]

I have trouble understanding how an operator giving rides does not pay the $1500/yr to cover risk of damage to others one might do with a $100,000 gyro. The optics are terrible.

 

[Llewtrah381]

I have trouble understanding how an operator giving rides does not pay the $1500/yr to cover risk of damage to others one might do with a $100,000 gyro. The optics are terrible.

I’d be curious to know what the insurance situation was for the Breezy that crashed and killed a few people a few years back.

I’d be stunned if the Trimotor, Bell helos, and bombers flown either by EAA or with their sanction didn’t carry insurance despite people signing waivers. Granted, they’re all commercial ops.

To my knowledge, and including the Breezy ops in the past, only demos out at the UL area fly people so close to crowds/public areas (debatably, the UL pattern keeps them away from technically being over crowds). It seems at least requiring insurance for those “gray market commercial ops” would be reasonable. Even people giving rides to friends (such as if I flew mine there and did so) should show proof of insurance out there - it’s just so different than activities elsewhere.

 

[Katamarino]

Pilots: "Aviation is so expensive because greedy people sue over every little thing, and it's heartless and cruel to go after a deceased pilot's estate like Kobe Bryant's family did"

Also pilots: "SUE THE **** OUT OF THE GRIEVING FAMILY"

Are you suggesting that the Gyro pilot is now decreased?