OSH - AIRCRAFT DOWN SOUTH OF ULTRALIGHT AREA

[skyking3286]

Airport shut down until after the airshow, black smoke south of ultralight area. In hold for a long time. . . cam shows a man pointing
to the south out of camera view during a light copter/gyro demo pattern, as camera pans smoke appears. Equipment and scooters roll
immediately.

Social media report: "Two ultralights (helicopter and stol plane) mid air collision. Was just outside of our airplane campsite."

FURTHER UPDATE FROM SCANNER TRAFFIC: Involves a fatality. One Helicopter and a gyro seems likely, due to the pattern activity and
the fact that STOL planes weren't flying in the demo. Airshow is being affected as they try to move planes that are shut down due to
the recovery ops. AirBoss got the runways at :23 after the hour.

UPDATE SOCIAL MEDIA COMMENT:
2 seat helo lost power. Collided midair with an ELA gyroplane.
2 on the helo killed on impact.
Gyro pilot serious injuries but alive.

FINAL UPDATE FROM THE OSHKOSH NWrn:

OSHKOSH - Two people were killed and two were injured Saturday when a helicopter and a gyrocopter collided in mid-air at Wittman Regional Airport, where the Experimental Aircraft Association AirVenture event is being held.

The injured people were taken to a local hospital and are in stable condition, according to a statement from EAA director of communications Dick Knapinski.

Just before 12:30 p.m., the helicopter, a Rotorway 162F, collided with the gyrocopter, an ELA Eclipse 10, at the south end of the EAA AirVenture flightline at Wittman Regional Airport, the EAA statement said.

The gyrocopter landed on top of a parked plane, according to the Oshkosh Fire Department.

"Aircraft operations at Wittman were halted while the accident was initially investigated," the EAA statement said. "The afternoon air show at the event did begin approximately on schedule, shortly after 2:30 p.m. CDT. ... These were aircraft that belonged to event attendees and were not involved in the air show. More details are still being gathered at this time. Further updates will be available as they are confirmed."

The National Transportation Safety Board said it's investigating the incident.

The collision happened on the same day that two people died when their T-6 Texan airplane crashed into Lake Winnebago north of Oshkosh.


Tragic. Rest in Peace and peace to the families involved.

 

[Daleandee]

Is this the one?

2 killed when plane crashes into Lake Winnebago

The bodies of both people have been recovered by divers.

www.thenorthwestern.com

"This is the fourth crash in the region during the EAA's AirVenture in Oshkosh. No one was seriously hurt in the other crashes. It's not known if the plane in Saturday's crash is connected to AirVenture."

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Is this the one?

2 killed when plane crashes into Lake Winnebago

The bodies of both people have been recovered by divers.

www.thenorthwestern.com

"This is the fourth crash in the region during the EAA's AirVenture in Oshkosh. No one was seriously hurt in the other crashes. It's not known if the plane in Saturday's crash is connected to AirVenture."

It is. My friend filmed a walk around video on it yesterday. He called and said it is rumored to have been giving rides when this happened.

 

[skyking3286]

Nope that is in another thread. This just happened about 2 hours after that.

OSH - T-6 goes into Lake Winnebago Saturday morning​

 

[MooneyDriver78]

They landed on a Mooney, the owner posted on Mooneyspace.

 

[texasclouds]

RIP Mooney :-(

 

[midwestpa24]

RIP Mooney :-(

Although I haven't seen the details, I'm assuming RIP to the people inside the aircraft that hit the Mooney.

 

[skyking3286]

He's OK. Busy getting his options in line, posting on Mooneyspace and FATPNW. EAA stepped in with lodging and a car for him.

 

[aggie06]

Deleted. Added nothing to the discussion.

 

[hindsight2020]

thread's getting spicy over on the space of the mooniacs.

 

[texasclouds]

Although I haven't seen the details, I'm assuming RIP to the people inside the aircraft that hit the Mooney.

Looks like they maybe didn’t make it. If so, RIP the people who crashed on the Mooney.

 

[Pinecone]

He's OK. Busy getting his options in line, posting on Mooneyspace and FATPNW. EAA stepped in with lodging and a car for him.

He and his family just missed being at their airplane by a few minutes. The were at the seaplane base and came back via main entrance instead of S40.

 

[schmookeeg]

thread's getting spicy over on the space of the mooniacs.

Funny how for every "that sucks, pilots died, condolences" type posts there were, there seemed to be two that shrugged about the dead and went on to discuss liability, insurance, and tort law.

 

[flightwriter]

Funny how for every "that sucks, pilots died, condolences" type posts there were, there seemed to be two that shrugged about the dead and went on to discuss liability, insurance, and tort law.

It may look like "shrugging" but I would posit that it's seldom that simple. We all react differently to aviation accidents, and for some, honing in on the forensics and broader consequences are just how we work through it. Far easier to focus on those tangible factors than it is to be reminded of our own mortality. Just my $.02.

 

[Hang 4]

It may look like "shrugging" but I would posit that it's seldom that simple. We all react differently to aviation accidents, and for some, honing in on the forensics and broader consequences are just how we work through it. Far easier to focus on those tangible factors than it is to be reminded of our own mortality. Just my $.02.

This seemed like more concern for the loss of the Mooney than the loss of life

 

[schmookeeg]

I was reacting to what the denizens chose to post publicly about. I dont know any of them nor their motivations.

Still an ugly look inside their private little tent.

 

[Piperonca]

According to ADSB track, the gyro turned back into the Rotorway.

 

[skyking3286]

It goes against what first eyewitness reports were at the time. Possible the witnesses could not distinguish between the two, given the cabin on the gyro. Tragic video above, sorry for this loss. Like some noted, there was some cowboy flying that day.

 

[aggie06]

I talked to at least two people immediately after the incident that watched the whole thing and made similar statements.

 

[aggie06]

NTSB preliminary report was released.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/192738/pdf

 

[flyingron]

From my rotocraft friend: Given the dozens of eyewitnesses who saw the gyro performing a "high final spiral to threshold" maneuver all week long, and being warned repeatedly to not do so.

In addition, the NTSB report shows the "new" pattern which essentially flies along the line separating the camping areas from the road.

 

[aggie06]

EAA needs to get control over that area and the other people who think they are too good for any rules. The more I think about it, the more I can’t help but think that it’s a culture problem that is already leaking out into other areas. The way the son of the EAA maintenance supervisor acted like EAA security and Vintage FL volunteers were trash, tried to fight us and threatened to run us over with dad’s truck, and then yelled obscenities at us was just an extension of “rules don’t apply to me” culture.

 

[Warmi]

EAA needs to get control over that area and the other people who think they are too good for any rules. The more I think about it, the more I can’t help but think that it’s a culture problem that is already leaking out into other areas. The way the son of the EAA maintenance supervisor acted like EAA security and Vintage FL volunteers were trash, tried to fight us and threatened to run us over with dad’s truck, and then yelled obscenities at us was just an extension of “rules don’t apply to me” culture.

You mean a couple of road/camp raging idiots you encountered is a reflection of the whole hundreds ( if no thousands ) people strong Ultralight field ?

 

[aggie06]

You mean a couple of road/camp raging idiots you encountered is a reflection of the whole hundreds ( if no thousands ) people strong Ultralight field ?

No, I’m talking about the guy that drove his truck through a gate because everyone let him once he told them who daddy was. I’m talking about the yellow shirt EAA security guys who said it’s ok for him to do whatever he wants because of who his dad is. I’m talking about the EAA maintenance employee that lied about what he was doing out there (said he was guarding a crosswalk that is only ever manned by Vintage FL and definitely not by facilities maintenance personnel). I’m talking about the same employee who tried to fight a maroon shirted EAA security employee on behalf of the facilities director’s son and used very inappropriate language while jumping in the truck with the facilities director’s kid to illegally drive through all the airplanes and to tell me and others that we were at fault because we didn’t pull anyone out of the burning wreckage. EAA lets all that continue with people too afraid to cross the boss’s son, even when that son lurches the truck forward at me (a volunteer) and yells that he’s “going to hit my b**** ass” just because he wants to be in the middle of what was a crime scene controlled by Winnebago County Sherriff at that point. The same kid that ran from the cops with no repercussions once they were called over to deal with him. I get that EAA has had his dad on all kinds of promotional material about how nice he is and how much he does for AirVenture and SnF, but the only way you fix a culture of “rules for thee” is by stopping that crap early.

These are all EAA employees causing this, with no consequences, not a couple of road/camp raging idiots, whatever that is.

 

[flyingron]

EAA needs to get control over that area and the other people who think they are too good for any rules. The more I think about it, the more I can’t help but think that it’s a culture problem that is already leaking out into other areas. The way the son of the EAA maintenance supervisor acted like EAA security and Vintage FL volunteers were trash, tried to fight us and threatened to run us over with dad’s truck, and then yelled obscenities at us was just an extension of “rules don’t apply to me” culture.

Believe me, this is being addressed. And it was Vintage FL that took care of the family of the deceased and the owners of the Mooney. It was fortunate that the EAA Chaplain's office sprung into action (alas there were communications issues, it.was fortunate that my wife was a professional colleague of Cam Martin and had his number in her phone).

 

[Lowflynjack]

EAA needs to get control over that area and the other people who think they are too good for any rules. The more I think about it, the more I can’t help but think that it’s a culture problem that is already leaking out into other areas.

As an EAA photographer, we had approval to cross the burn line for many years. We could step out and take photos of the crowd, or even drive our golf carts just outside of the line rather than through the crowd. Then people decided to bring their own yellow vests, pretending they had access, and violate the rules, which caused us all to be banned. Seems like it would have been simpler to look at our vests that say EAA on the back and know we're supposed to be there. Because people couldn't follow the rules, the rules changed... and we now follow the new ones (and grumble about them!)

On another note, I work the Vintage area and make sure to stop by and talk to the Vintage FL folks and let them know what I'm doing, why I'm there, and take plenty of photos of them doing their job! Never had any issues, great team!

 

[schmookeeg]

I'm "enjoying" the updates from the affected mooney on FB -- apparently neither the gyro nor the copter had liability insurance, and the mooney had inadequate hull cover to dry his tears (after his relief at not being chummed from above), so obviously there is nothing left to do but to sue everyone so he can "be made whole"

I suspect the only pocket to pick in this one is EAA's. I can hear the biting of law sharks from here.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I suspect the only pocket to pick in this one is EAA's. I can hear the biting of law sharks from here.

There may be an easy lawsuit there. If they can prove that aircraft from the ultralight field are routinely flying over planes in Vintage Camping and being allowed to get away with it, which is what I have complained about for years.

In the Ultralight section of the NOTAM: "Do not overfly aircraft parking areas or Runways 18/36 L/R". I understand this aircraft may have drifted out of the pattern after the impact, but they do fly over the camping area all day, every day.

 

[Warmi]

There may be an easy lawsuit there. If they can prove that aircraft from the ultralight field are routinely flying over planes in Vintage Camping and being allowed to get away with it, which is what I have complained about for years.

In the Ultralight section of the NOTAM: "Do not overfly aircraft parking areas or Runways 18/36 L/R". I understand this aircraft may have drifted out of the pattern after the impact, but they do fly over the camping area all day, every day.

The end result will be that there won’t be any flying over there and given enough time and another crash, this time perhaps on the main runway, with enough lawyers and “easy lawsuits” there won’t be any flying during AirVenture at all.

 

[schmookeeg]

There may be an easy lawsuit there. If they can prove that aircraft from the ultralight field are routinely flying over planes in Vintage Camping and being allowed to get away with it, which is what I have complained about for years.

In the Ultralight section of the NOTAM: "Do not overfly aircraft parking areas or Runways 18/36 L/R". I understand this aircraft may have drifted out of the pattern after the impact, but they do fly over the camping area all day, every day.

I can't lie, that whole end of the show always felt a little too "wild west" for my taste, and I never found myself there after my first visit.

Still not sure that EAA should be on the hook for allowing flying to occur at a fly-in. I mean, at what point does the camper own his risk? Risk that he was clearly not willing to fully insure? Does the justice system owe him "made whole" or should he be made to "make do" with the amount he chose for his hull renewal policy? The storm damage analogy is great. He was accepting of force majeure up to that amount.

I just dunno, but something tells me the winds are not favorable here to EAA.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I can't lie, that whole end of the show always felt a little too "wild west" for my taste, and I never found myself there after my first visit.

Still not sure that EAA should be on the hook for allowing flying to occur at a fly-in. I mean, at what point does the camper own his risk? Risk that he was clearly not willing to fully insure? Does the justice system owe him "made whole" or should he be made to "make do" with the amount he chose for his hull renewal policy? The storm damage analogy is great. He was accepting of force majeure up to that amount.

I just dunno, but something tells me the winds are not favorable here to EAA.

I'm not saying they should sue, but if I were a gambling man, I would bet they would win. It's a fly-in at a controlled airport and they're letting these guys fly basically uncontrolled. They have rules saying you can do this, but you must follow these guidelines, yet nobody enforces them.

I've heard rumors they were planning to move the ultralight runway to a better location anyway. My guess is, this will speed up that process.

 

[Grum.Man]

I love the fun fly zone, probably one of my favorite areas to hang out during the week. I always thought in my mind that it was pretty wild that they are allowed to fly the pattern that they do even out over the campers in Scholler. I am almost certain something will change over there for next year after this incident. If EAA ends up being taken to court it wouldn't be a stretch to say the whole grass strip gets shut down. Pioneer field seems like a much better fit except it's so far from the show grounds.

 

[Grum.Man]

My personal opinion is flying into airventure carries an elevated risk. Between the airplane traffic, weather, and pedestrians the probability of incurring damage is high. If you aren't comfortable with your insurance coverage then you should probably leave the plane at home. In this society we are one tragic accident away from EAA requiring proof of liability coverage to attend.

 

[schmookeeg]

My personal opinion is flying into airventure carries an elevated risk. Between the airplane traffic, weather, and pedestrians the probability of incurring damage is high. If you aren't comfortable with your insurance coverage then you should probably leave the plane at home. In this society we are one tragic accident away from EAA requiring proof of liability coverage to attend.

Yeah that captures my feeling on the thing -- I also feel it's a less common view of the world. :/

 

[ateamer]

If the Mooney owner sues EAA, the orgamization will likely settle out of court quickly and quietly. They won’t want further negative publicity, nor chance a ruling that binds them to any particular action in the future. Plus it will probably cost less to replace the Mooney than to fight the case all the way through a jury trial and possibly an appeal.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

My personal opinion is flying into airventure carries an elevated risk. Between the airplane traffic, weather, and pedestrians the probability of incurring damage is high. If you aren't comfortable with your insurance coverage then you should probably leave the plane at home. In this society we are one tragic accident away from EAA requiring proof of liability coverage to attend.

That should have been the case for decades, right? In every single state, you must show or affirm that you have liability insurance to drive.

 

[schmookeeg]

I wonder just how underinsured the mooney was. He is grousing about the sales taxes paid on the thing, so maybe he's 25K or so away from being "squared" -- and maybe EAA can square him quietly.

And yeah the more I ponder it this morning before tea, the less I like the idea that he needs squared at all.

 

[Grum.Man]

One thing for sure needs to change at the fun fly zone. If you elect to fly your plane for show or fun you really should be required to have 1mil liability coverage. That’s not very expensive and is a reasonable ask given the risk.

 

[Jim K]

I'll be honest, were they to happen to me, I'd be suing the gyro company, its owner, and the pilot's estate at a minimum. If it's true they didn't have liability insurance on that thing they deserve to be put out of business. Mooney guy shouldn't be left holding the bag for someone else's mistake no matter how underinsured he is. For that matter, even if he was overinsured you can bet his insurance company is going to sue everyone to get their money back. To be sure though, I'd just want to be square. The grandson of the helo pilot (passenger? I might have that wrong), who had to watch grandpa become a victim of negligent homicide, is the one who anyone with deep pockets (eaa) needs to worry about.

 

[Lowflynjack]

My personal opinion is flying into airventure carries an elevated risk. Between the airplane traffic, weather, and pedestrians the probability of incurring damage is high. If you aren't comfortable with your insurance coverage then you should probably leave the plane at home. In this society we are one tragic accident away from EAA requiring proof of liability coverage to attend.

I don't disagree with there being an elevated risk. I wouldn't say the probability of incurring damage is high, but maybe higher than a normal flight. Just flying in, many aircraft are converging on one point. However, most aircraft going into KOSH are not allowed to fly over the crowd, the camping areas, or even other planes. The ultralight area has some old planes, with sketchy engines at best, flying right over people and planes consistently. This needs to change.