oral question

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Tarheelpilot

Final Approach
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Tarheelpilot
Scenario:

On an circle to land approach, weather is minimums for the approach. Inside the FAF after receiving your landing clearance from tower your radio dies and you loose all communication with atc however everything else is working normally. You continue the approach and obtain a visual. While circling to land a vehicle enters your runway and remains in the way precluding a safe landing on the runway your a cleared to land on. What do you do?
 
Shoot the approach again, if you are reasonably sure you can make it in.
 
(I'm not a CFI or even an experienced instrument pilot, so take this for what it's worth.)

If the weather were at least a bit above minimums, I'd probably continue "circling" in whatever pattern was possible until the ground vehicle went away. I don't think there's a time limit on circling.

With weather literally right at minimums, not being able to (or wanting to) descend below circling mins before maneuvering to land and figuring I'll wind up in the clouds at some point, I'd go missed and lost-comms. (Which to the best of my recollection is, after missed, back to the IAF to try again or to the alternate, depending on how likely I thought it was that the vehicle would have moved.)
 
Ok, I re-thought the answer. Only one runway? No choice but to do a missed approach. Now the question becomes whether to shoot another approach at the same airport. You take the chance of shooting the approach again and the vehicle is still on the runway. I would be inclined to go to the nearest airport with weather above minimums. ATC is going to know something is amiss and clear the airspace.

If the airport has more than one runway, I would choose one and land on it.

Reading John's post, that is also an option, I suppose, if one can stay clear of the clouds.

But if this is a controlled field, with operating control tower, I would think the tower would have something to say to the operator of the vehicle for a runway incursion. They would also do everything they could to get the vehicle off the runway.
 
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Tarheelpilot said:
Scenario:

On an circle to land approach, weather is minimums for the approach. Inside the FAF after receiving your landing clearance from tower your radio dies and you loose all communication with atc however everything else is working normally. You continue the approach and obtain a visual. While circling to land a vehicle enters your runway and remains in the way precluding a safe landing on the runway your a cleared to land on. What do you do?
Click to expand...

Continue circling and examine your options. You've got a vehicle on the runway at a towered field, somebody screwed up. They'll probably sort it out in short order and the runway will be cleared. If so, fine. If not, then perhaps another runway is an option. Perhaps a taxiway. Perhaps the grass alongside the runway.
 
I suspect what the examiner is looking for is "how do I get out of here safely?" The missed approach procedure is designed to be executed when you're at or near the missed approach point, not some random point as you orbit the airport. Knowing the obstacle departure procedure (if one exists) and the standard instrument departure profile (if an ODP doesn't exist) should keep you from hitting anything as you climb back up into the clag and navigate to your next point (back to an IAF or off to your alternate). At this point squawking 7600 is a very good idea.
 
How much runway do I need for what I am flying and how much runway do I have. Is there another runway or a parallel taxiway? Can I safely land short or long over the vehicle?
 
TMetzinger said:
The missed approach procedure is designed to be executed when you're at or near the missed approach point, not some random point as you orbit the airport.
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That is not at all true. At any point during a circle to land approach if you loose visual sight of the runway environment you are to execute a missed approach.

In this example, as long as the pilot has visual with the runway environment continue to circle to land as long as VMC conditions exist considering the communication emergency. Pilot should be looking for light gun signal at that point for clearance to land if at a controlled field. If visual is lost or landing is not an option, execute the missed approach procedure to the published hold, THEN squawk 7600 if have not done so already then shoot the approach again.
 
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Shawn said:
That is not at all true. At any point during a circle to land approach if you loose visual sight of the runway environment you are to execute a missed approach.

In this example, as long as the pilot has visual with the runway environment continue to circle to land as long as VMC conditions exist considering the communication emergency. Pilot should be looking for light gun signal at that point for clearance to land if at a controlled field. If visual is lost or landing is not an option, execute the missed approach procedure to the published hold, THEN squawk 7600 if have not done so already then shoot the approach again.
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I agree that you are to execute a missed approach from the circle, and you're correct (and I'm wrong) that you should be able to execute that missed as long as you are with in the circling approach space. So forget the part about obstacle clearance.


But the question must be looking for something - it's an oddball scenario to say you got a light signal to land and then someone blocked the runway. The obvious answer is "go missed and go elsewhere". But it's bizzare to postulate a runway blocked at a towered airport.

Now, at a non-towered airport, this makes more sense - you'd circle, attempt to land and find that you cannot. At that point, there's no weird contradiction between a Tower signalling you to land and some nutjob blocking the runway. In the non-towered case you go missed (duh), and it's now a judgement call to try again, or to go elsewhere. I'd go elsewhere.
 
mcmanigle said:
(I'm not a CFI or even an experienced instrument pilot, so take this for what it's worth.)

If the weather were at least a bit above minimums, I'd probably continue "circling" in whatever pattern was possible until the ground vehicle went away. I don't think there's a time limit on circling.

With weather literally right at minimums, not being able to (or wanting to) descend below circling mins before maneuvering to land and figuring I'll wind up in the clouds at some point, I'd go missed and lost-comms. (Which to the best of my recollection is, after missed, back to the IAF to try again or to the alternate, depending on how likely I thought it was that the vehicle would have moved.)
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That sounds reasonable. ^^^
 
TMetzinger said:
I agree that you are to execute a missed approach from the circle, and you're correct (and I'm wrong) that you should be able to execute that missed as long as you are with in the circling approach space.
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You worded that carefully (I suspect for good reason). If you descend while circling then your original concern with obstacle clearance on a missed approach returns.
 
Thanks for the responses.

Answer given was to turn back to the final course while VMC and execute the published missed. DME said that was not the correct answer and never said what he was looking for with the question.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Answer given was to turn back to the final course while VMC and execute the published missed.
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Your answer, I assume.

DME said that was not the correct answer and never said what he was looking for with the question.
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I assume you meant DPE there. Did he say why that was incorrect?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
On an circle to land approach, weather is minimums for the approach. Inside the FAF after receiving your landing clearance from tower your radio dies and you loose all communication with atc however everything else is working normally. You continue the approach and obtain a visual. While circling to land a vehicle enters your runway and remains in the way precluding a safe landing on the runway your a cleared to land on. What do you do?
Click to expand...
I remember the First Rule of Wing Walking: "Never let go o'nothin' 'til you got a-hold o'somethin' else." Right now the only thing of which "you got a-hold" is the sight of that airport, and going back up into the clouds with defective avionics means letting go of that without having "a-hold o'somethin' else," because you might find that your nav system follows your comm system into the sunset in fairly short order, and being up in the goo in minimum weather with no nav or comm is not something I want to be. So, what I'll do in that emergency situation is pick any available surface on the airport (parallel taxiway, grass next to the runway, ramp, whatever) on which I can land with reasonable safety, and land there.
 
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TMetzinger said:
I agree that you are to execute a missed approach from the circle, and you're correct (and I'm wrong) that you should be able to execute that missed as long as you are with in the circling approach space. So forget the part about obstacle clearance.
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Not quite true. You really are only guaranteed a safe missed approach from the MAP on the final approach course at or above MDA. See AIM 5-4-21b. Once you start the circling maneuver, you're more or less on your own to get back into position to execute that missed approach procedure as published. Generally speaking, the first thing to do if you have to go missed after beginning the circling maneuver is a climbing turn towards the runway, then turn to the final approach course direction, and then execute the published missed. See AIM Section 5-4-21c for a fuller discussion.
 
No this was not my answer. It was a friend. Just curious what the general opinion was from the group.

Yes I intended to type DPE.

I agree with Ron. I would treat it as an emergency and get my butt on the ground safely without going back into the soup. If I already had a failure of the comm I would not assume the problem was stable and feel a warm fuzzy about going IMC again.
 
If I could stay VMC I'd rock my wings, do the whole lost comms routine, try to get the car off the runway, otherwise with no where to land, I'd go missed to my alternate.
 
James331 said:
If I could stay VMC I'd rock my wings, do the whole lost comms routine, try to get the car off the runway, otherwise with no where to land, I'd go missed to my alternate.
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After having lost all comm, you'd trust your nav radios to stay operational long enough to get to your alternate? Certainly a choice one can make after evaluating the risks with the various options, but not something I'd choose to do unless there were no safe place (not necessarily the runway) on which to land where I was.
 
Ron Levy said:
So, what I'll do in that emergency situation is pick any available surface on the airport (parallel taxiway, grass next to the runway, ramp, whatever) on which I can land with reasonable safety, and land there.
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You do what you want. I'm not gonna land on a parallel taxiway, grass which isn't used as a runway, or a ramp, just because an airport vehicle drove out on the runway. I'd be at risk for hitting a lot more things. Stray chalks on the ramp, cones, parked airplanes, airplanes taxiing. I'll take my chances with the one vehicle on a piece of pavement that is there for the sole purpose of me doing what I am suppose to do...land and take-off. If I'm in a small single engine doing the approach at around 90 knots, I'm gonna keep circling, keeping the runway in sight. The tower is gonna wonder what the heck I am doing and probably notice that there is a reason I haven't landed and try to get the vehicle off the runway. If it is an uncontrolled airport, I'll either land past the vehicle or keep circling a bit to see if he clears the runway. If he stops halfway down, I'll do a low pass to get his attention to get the hell out of the way. At any time I lose visual with the runway, standard missed approach, do the approach again, type 7600 during the process. At the end of all of it the vehicle driver will get a piece of my mind. Probably an imprint of my boot on his behind.
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
You do what you want. I'm not gonna land on a parallel taxiway, grass which isn't used as a runway, or a ramp, just because an airport vehicle drove out on the runway. I'd be at risk for hitting a lot more things. Stray chalks on the ramp, cones, parked airplanes, airplanes taxiing. I'll take my chances with the one vehicle on a piece of pavement that is there for the sole purpose of me doing what I am suppose to do...land and take-off. If I'm in a small single engine doing the approach at around 90 knots, I'm gonna keep circling, keeping the runway in sight. The tower is gonna wonder what the heck I am doing and probably notice that there is a reason I haven't landed and try to get the vehicle off the runway. If it is an uncontrolled airport, I'll either land past the vehicle or keep circling a bit to see if he clears the runway. If he stops halfway down, I'll do a low pass to get his attention to get the hell out of the way. At any time I lose visual with the runway, standard missed approach, do the approach again, type 7600 during the process. At the end of all of it the vehicle driver will get a piece of my mind. Probably an imprint of my boot on his behind.
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I'm certainly OK with all that as long as I have the gas and the weather remains cooperative and I never said otherwise, and probably wouldn't do any differently as long as there's no pressing reason to land right now, but I'm not going back up in the goo with dying radios and near-mins weather.
 
Its possible to land safely with a vehicle on the runway. They land three planes at once on one runway at Osh. They divide the runway into thirds. "Land at the Blue Dot" etc. And landing on a taxiway is done a LOT, when they are paving the main runway at lots of airports (including one I used to be based at).
 
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coloradobluesky said:
Its possible to land safely with a vehicle on the runway. They land three planes at once on one runway at Osh. They divide the runway into thirds. "Land at the Blue Dot" etc. And landing on a taxiway is done a LOT, when they are paving the main runway at lots of airports (including one I used to be based at).
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Not when the vehicle on the runway remains in the way precluding a safe landing on it.
 
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