Opinions on Accelerated Commercial courses

Aye Effaar

Aye Effaar

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I've spent 20-hours working towards my Commercial certificate with a local flight school but can't get an accurate assessment of the amount of time remaining (I have PPL ASEL, ~500 TT, >50 Complex, Instrument Rating, AGI, IGI). Unfortunately, I'm now in a position where time is a premium. I've asked my instructor about his firm offering a finish-up or bootcamp weekend to get to completion, but the Chief Pilot rejected this request.

I've researched the topic both online and in POA forums. I focused on organizations that offer a fixed program. Either 3 or 5 days to achieve your Commercial certificate, with the checkride scheduled to occur immediately after the last day of training. You show up meeting all the 61.129 required experience, having passed your written, with a current BFR.

I've found the following organizations:
  • GATTS
  • Venture North Aviation
  • Livingston Aviation
  • Sporty's Academy
I'd appreciate feedback from anyone who has taken one of these programs and their opinion of the experience. Also, if you worked with another provider, I'd like to hear about that as well.

I would also accept negative feedback about the idea. My current flight school did not elaborate why they rejected the request -- just some sort of vague comment about they felt it didn't work out in the past. If you're a CFI and have a negative opinion, please feel free to share that as well.
 
I was in that boat not long ago. I booked a finish-up with Riggins in Madison, SD. Unfortunately, it was winter IMC the whole week I was there so we didn’t get it done. I finished up with an independent CFI at home during the summer. I had to get a flight review and re-take the written due to the delay but it all worked out in the end.
 
A commercial certificate shouldn’t take 20+ hours of flight training, IMO. A change might be good just to get a different set of eyes and/or different instructor techniques.
 
I'd probably suggest a different approach to this question if time is an issue. Call each of the desired schools and see what their training backlog is. Some or all of the options may be eliminated due to long wait times.

Also, winter time flying can be a problem as was already pointed out earlier in this thread. When I was providing accelerated training in the upper midwest there were times where we just couldn't get things finished up in the time allotted. That's something you should factor in as well.
 
MauleSkinner said:
A commercial certificate shouldn’t take 20+ hours of flight training, IMO. A change might be good just to get a different set of eyes and/or different instructor techniques.
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It requires 20 hours of dual plus 10 hours of solo per the regs. There may be some overlap on the training if you've got IR or complex already. I had neither, and just an hour of simulated instrument. Plus time to polish maneuvers. So it depends.
 
Aye Effaar said:
I've spent 20-hours working towards my Commercial certificate with a local flight school but can't get an accurate assessment of the amount of time remaining (I have PPL ASEL, ~500 TT, >50 Complex, Instrument Rating, AGI, IGI). Unfortunately, I'm now in a position where time is a premium. I've asked my instructor about his firm offering a finish-up or bootcamp weekend to get to completion, but the Chief Pilot rejected this request.

I've researched the topic both online and in POA forums. I focused on organizations that offer a fixed program. Either 3 or 5 days to achieve your Commercial certificate, with the checkride scheduled to occur immediately after the last day of training. You show up meeting all the 61.129 required experience, having passed your written, with a current BFR.

I've found the following organizations:
  • GATTS
  • Venture North Aviation
  • Livingston Aviation
  • Sporty's Academy
I'd appreciate feedback from anyone who has taken one of these programs and their opinion of the experience. Also, if you worked with another provider, I'd like to hear about that as well.

I would also accept negative feedback about the idea. My current flight school did not elaborate why they rejected the request -- just some sort of vague comment about they felt it didn't work out in the past. If you're a CFI and have a negative opinion, please feel free to share that as well.
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How are you on the oral? Your maneuvers?
 
Lindberg said:
How are you on the oral? Your maneuvers?
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I feel solid on the oral. However, I haven't completed the maneuvers yet. I book two training sessions a week, but we've been weathered out a lot. For example, in the past four months, we've only been able to squeeze in 12 flights.

Training takes place from a delta airport under the shelf of a bravo, so we spend 0.5 of our 1.5 airtime flying to/from the practice area. In addition, the instructor likes to review most maneuvers and introduce new maneuvers at the end, which makes it challenging to practice new maneuvers (lazy-8's an 8's on pylons are remaining).

It seems to me a couple of marathon flying days could get it done.
 
mondtster said:
I'd probably suggest a different approach to this question if time is an issue. Call each of the desired schools and see what their training backlog is. Some or all of the options may be eliminated due to long wait times.

Also, winter time flying can be a problem as was already pointed out earlier in this thread. When I was providing accelerated training in the upper midwest there were times where we just couldn't get things finished up in the time allotted. That's something you should factor in as well.
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Weather has already been a big obstacle to me -- which is why I was thinking about an accelerated program. So that if we get a decent VFR day, we use it to the max.

I'm interested in your experience teaching an accelerated program. Did you feel there was any difference how it turned out for the student? I see you offered these in the past -- did you stop offering it due to the weather challenge, or were there other factors? Finishing the commercial is important to me, but if it compromises some element of the program, I'd want to avoid it.
 
How much time do you spend practicing maneuvers? I logged a lot more hours solo than dual trying to perfect my power off 180 and eights on pylons. And I still sometimes do lazy eights just because they’re fun and satisfying.
 
I used CRAFT in South Carolina to do my accelerated IR. They also offer accelerated commercial (https://flycraftchs.com/commercial-course/)

They were very organized and professional. They schedule the check ride and work back. I needed to finish before my (second) written expired and they were able to do that.

Give 'em a call and see what they say. Weather should not be a big deal right now in South Carolina.

John
 
iamtheari said:
How much time do you spend practicing maneuvers? I logged a lot more hours solo than dual trying to perfect my power off 180 and eights on pylons. And I still sometimes do lazy eights just because they’re fun and satisfying.
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It's all dual. They require training flights to take place with one of their instructors.
 
Aye Effaar said:
It's all dual. They require training flights to take place with one of their instructors.
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So you can't rent the aircraft you're training in for a personal flight??? Sounds weird, but I did all my training part 61 so what do I know? It also sounds like you're almost done so why not just get it completed? If time is truly a concern and you have the financial resources then I sure would go with one of the outfits you listed to get it knocked out...
 
Aye Effaar said:
I'm interested in your experience teaching an accelerated program. Did you feel there was any difference how it turned out for the student? I see you offered these in the past -- did you stop offering it due to the weather challenge, or were there other factors? Finishing the commercial is important to me, but if it compromises some element of the program, I'd want to avoid it.
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As MauleSkinner pointed out, the commercial single engine land certificate generally doesn’t take a ton of hours worth of flight training to complete. There’s no sense in dragging the training out too long, so I don’t think traditional flight training would offer any real advantage or superior outcome over an accelerated course.

I didn’t quit instructing for any reason other than a lack of time to give to students. Flight instruction has always been a second job for me and my other aviation related activities consume too much time. I still take on a student or two from time to time but nowhere near as many as I used to.
 
Aye Effaar said:
I've spent 20-hours working towards my Commercial certificate with a local flight school but can't get an accurate assessment of the amount of time remaining (I have PPL ASEL, ~500 TT, >50 Complex, Instrument Rating, AGI, IGI). Unfortunately, I'm now in a position where time is a premium. I've asked my instructor about his firm offering a finish-up or bootcamp weekend to get to completion, but the Chief Pilot rejected this request.

I've researched the topic both online and in POA forums. I focused on organizations that offer a fixed program. Either 3 or 5 days to achieve your Commercial certificate, with the checkride scheduled to occur immediately after the last day of training. You show up meeting all the 61.129 required experience, having passed your written, with a current BFR.

I've found the following organizations:
  • GATTS
  • Venture North Aviation
  • Livingston Aviation
  • Sporty's Academy
I'd appreciate feedback from anyone who has taken one of these programs and their opinion of the experience. Also, if you worked with another provider, I'd like to hear about that as well.

I would also accept negative feedback about the idea. My current flight school did not elaborate why they rejected the request -- just some sort of vague comment about they felt it didn't work out in the past. If you're a CFI and have a negative opinion, please feel free to share that as well.
Click to expand...

Commercial is a fun certificate. I would not want to get it done in 3-5 days.
 
sarangan said:
Commercial is a fun certificate. I would not want to get it done in 3-5 days.
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Agreed!

Getting the power off 180’s to standard was something I had to work on. But the very windy day when my insisted we go fly really boosted my confidence in mastering the airplane.

Runway 18R and winds 170 23G33 made the lesson hella fun once I figured out how to “tail slide” the airplane from downwind to final and stick the wheels into the thousand foot markers.
 
Lindberg said:
It requires 20 hours of dual plus 10 hours of solo per the regs. There may be some overlap on the training if you've got IR or complex already. I had neither, and just an hour of simulated instrument. Plus time to polish maneuvers. So it depends.
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True. My statement assumed (and you know what happens when you assume…you look like a ****ing idiot) that the instrument/solo/complex or TAA requirements were met, as these time requirements are clearly delineated in a reg that the OP is obviously aware of, so the OP asking the instructor “how much more time?” is related to proficiency rather than time requirements.

back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I got my commercial certificate, the requirements were somewhat different, but 6 hours of commercial maneuver instruction got me to standard, including some back-and-forth with my instructor and I trying to figure out maneuvers that neither of us had ever seen before since they had just been added back into the PTS. And quite frankly, I was a crappy pilot at the time.
 
MauleSkinner said:
True. My statement assumed (and you know what happens when you assume…you look like a ****ing idiot) that the instrument/solo/complex or TAA requirements were met, as these time requirements are clearly delineated in a reg that the OP is obviously aware of, so the OP asking the instructor “how much more time?” is related to proficiency rather than time requirements.
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I agree, and I made the same assumption. Most of the Commercial applicants who come to me have met at least some of the training and experience requirements. The instrument training requirement is commonly already done (although with different documentation requirements now). Most have a 2-hr dual day XC somewhere in their logbook, say from buying a plane in another state and flying it back home with a CFI. Many have the long solo XC completed, although finding it is a trick, as is making sure they understand what the word "solo" means.

I find that most often, they are short on the night requirements, specifically the solo landings at a towered field at night, and the night dual XC. Those things just don't seem to happen regularly enough on their own.

However, all of my clients own their own airplanes, so I do imagine it would be different with a renter.
 
idahoflier said:
So you can't rent the aircraft you're training in for a personal flight???
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Not unusual for a busy flight school. When you think about it, a pilot taking one of the planes for a personal trip means that aircraft is not available for training. And most training aircraft log more hours doing training flights than a renter would taking it on a cross country.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not unusual for a busy flight school. When you think about it, a pilot taking one of the planes for a personal trip means that aircraft is not available for training. And most training aircraft log more hours doing training flights than a renter would taking it on a cross country.
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I think the question was more about taking it out for an hour or two of solo maneuver practice than of taking it to the beach for a weekend.

The best thing about training for the Commercial certificate is, barring FBO rules like this, you CAN go practice all of the maneuvers by yourself, unlike the instrument rating and much of the Private certificate. Once you have the basics down, there is great advantage to drilling on them yourself, making and correcting your own mistakes, rather than having a CFI there.
 
Aye Effaar said:
I've found the following organizations:
  • GATTS
Click to expand...
One of the posters here told me about a very unpleasant experience with GATTS, resulting in this person choosing to discontinue training and return home. I know that often such negative reviews could be equally the fault of the trainee as the company, but in this case I don't think so.

You will see lots of positive reviews on GATTS from several years ago. My understanding is that they changed ownership since then.
 
RussR said:
One of the posters here told me about a very unpleasant experience with GATTS, resulting in this person choosing to discontinue training and return home. I know that often such negative reviews could be equally the fault of the trainee as the company, but in this case I don't think so.

You will see lots of positive reviews on GATTS from several years ago. My understanding is that they changed ownership since then.
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I heard the story as well.

I had hoped that by posting in the PoA forum, someone might join the discussion and provide some recent experience. Their website has a very compelling offer, but I think it needs confirmation.
 
I'm largely in the same situation with completing commercial. That said I have a question related about instrument training for commercial 61.129(a)(3)(i). In short at the school I did private and instrument I was told that my training hours for the instrument rating would satisfy the commercial requirement. But the people I'm working with for commercial insist that I need to fly additional hours with their instructor given my logged instrument hours did not specifically call out 61.129(a)(3)(i) on each flight. And one of the local DPE's told me hours used for another certificate or rating cannot be applied to a new application.

Obviously I have little interest in spending more money flying more instrument, fun as it is. What is the right answer with respect to instrument training hours towards a commercial certificate?
 
vsc said:
given my logged instrument hours did not specifically call out 61.129(a)(3)(i) on each flight.

...

What is the right answer with respect to instrument training hours towards a commercial certificate?
Click to expand...

Write "61.129(a)(3)(i)" next to each instrument training flight that covered any of those topics.
 
Aye Effaar said:
I've spent 20-hours working towards my Commercial certificate with a local flight school but can't get an accurate assessment of the amount of time remaining (I have PPL ASEL, ~500 TT, >50 Complex, Instrument Rating, AGI, IGI). Unfortunately, I'm now in a position where time is a premium. I've asked my instructor about his firm offering a finish-up or bootcamp weekend to get to completion, but the Chief Pilot rejected this request.

I've researched the topic both online and in POA forums. I focused on organizations that offer a fixed program. Either 3 or 5 days to achieve your Commercial certificate, with the checkride scheduled to occur immediately after the last day of training. You show up meeting all the 61.129 required experience, having passed your written, with a current BFR.

I've found the following organizations:
  • GATTS
  • Venture North Aviation
  • Livingston Aviation
  • Sporty's Academy
I'd appreciate feedback from anyone who has taken one of these programs and their opinion of the experience. Also, if you worked with another provider, I'd like to hear about that as well.

I would also accept negative feedback about the idea. My current flight school did not elaborate why they rejected the request -- just some sort of vague comment about they felt it didn't work out in the past. If you're a CFI and have a negative opinion, please feel free to share that as well.
Click to expand...
I used Venture North as my finish for ppl. I am an older than average student, had 140 hours due to CFI being called back to airlines, COVID, BLAH BLAH BLAH. My check ride was scheduled 3 times and canceled for weather and finally the DPE was COVID positive night before check ride. Was up against knowledge test deadline so used Venture North just to get ticket. They made me change everything. Anti-GLUMPS. Had to change pattern procedure because “Bill likes it this way”. All this was done in my plane. My CFI belittled much about my plane including autopilot (husband just earned Instrument Rating; everyone raves about how our plane flies down to minimums). My oral was rapid-fire single-question for 45 minutes with no reference material used when Bill was satisfied with my knowledge. The flying part he seemed bored with until he didn’t like my approaches. “You’re going to crash this plane, but what do you care, you own it” he said. Then, while taxing in, me knowing I had failed, he told me I was a very safe pilot and he’d put his kids in my backseat any day. All I cared about was getting my certificate. My confidence, though, is still destroyed to this day. I have flown alone once since then. Because I keep hearing in my head “You’re going to crash this plane. But what do you care, you own it.” Avoid Venture North.
 
You might look for a local independent CFI who is not looking to build time for the airlines. There is a new flight school near me with a bunch of long time CFIs that might work for you. I’ll PM the info.
 
vsc said:
I'm largely in the same situation with completing commercial. That said I have a question related about instrument training for commercial 61.129(a)(3)(i). In short at the school I did private and instrument I was told that my training hours for the instrument rating would satisfy the commercial requirement. But the people I'm working with for commercial insist that I need to fly additional hours with their instructor given my logged instrument hours did not specifically call out 61.129(a)(3)(i) on each flight. And one of the local DPE's told me hours used for another certificate or rating cannot be applied to a new application.

Obviously I have little interest in spending more money flying more instrument, fun as it is. What is the right answer with respect to instrument training hours towards a commercial certificate?
Click to expand...

I'd talk to another flight school. No where in the FARs does it say training can't be used to satisfy multiple requirements. That's insane. By that twisted logic, 61.129(a) calls for you to earn 250-hours total time. Are they suggesting the time you spent towards your private and towards your instrument somehow do not apply? If you are getting push back from someone who's opinion you respect -- call your local FSDO and ask them to clarify.

On a separate note: an applicant for commercial does not need to have an instrument rating. 61.129(a)(3)(i) exists to ensure a commercial pilot has at least "some" instrument time. If you have earned your instrument rating you've met 61.129(a)(3)(i)

I'M EDITING THIS

This last comment is incorrect. An Instrument Rating does not automatically guarantee compliance with 61.129(a)(3)(i). The FAA provided specific guidance on this issue

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or.../2018/Oord-AOPA_2018_Legal_Interpretation.pdf
.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
But those specific instructional items still need to be logged, which may or may not have happened.
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I have read the private basic instrument, instrument rating and commercial instrument training requirements and it's really hard not to have met the commercial requirements if you have completed an instrument rating...

I believe there are two parts to this. Getting the endorsement and acceptance by the DPE in question. I'm going to call the FSDO today for a reading, though I suspect I won't get anything more than an unofficial read pushing me to Oklahoma City. Additionally I decided to reach out to my CFII to see if we can add 61.129(a)(3)(i) to applicable instrument rating training flights.
 
vsc said:
I have read the private basic instrument, instrument rating and commercial instrument training requirements and it's really hard not to have met the commercial requirements if you have completed an instrument rating...

I believe there are two parts to this. Getting the endorsement and acceptance by the DPE in question. I'm going to call the FSDO today for a reading, though I suspect I won't get anything more than an unofficial read pushing me to Oklahoma City. Additionally I decided to reach out to my CFII to see if we can add 61.129(a)(3)(i) to applicable instrument rating training flights.
Click to expand...

Everyone agrees except (partially) the FAA Chief Counsel, who in 2010 issued the following letter (and references a previous letter):

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...0/Hartzell-AOPA_2010_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

In the 3rd paragraph they include the words "provide evidence that they have met the requirements of 61.129". This evidence is typically just another comment in the instrument training flights in your logbook. While in the past, DPEs did tend to apply "you have an instrument rating, so you're good", now many are specifically looking for either 1) instrument training past the instrument checkride (which would be de facto towards 61.129, sort of) or 2) documentation during the instrument rating training that the training also complied with 61.129.

They do admit that "some/most/or quite often all" of the requirements will be met during the instrument rating training.

Yes, it's ridiculous, because you cannot get an instrument rating without also being trained on the items in 61.129, which are extremely basic parts of instrument training. I actually had a Commercial applicant not be able to start a checkride due to this. Now, if I was to train someone for an instrument rating, I'd be entering "61.129a(3)(i)" to every remarks block, so it's covered if they ever pursue the Commercial in the future.
 
"Everyone agrees except (partially) the FAA Chief Counsel, who in 2010 issued the following letter (and references a previous letter)"

This is good information. Thus no need for me to call the FSDO, who likely know less about this than what I just learned...

Thus because I have little interest in paying for more instrument training, I'm going to get the entries made in my logbook.
 
RussR said:
Everyone agrees except (partially) the FAA Chief Counsel, who in 2010 issued the following letter (and references a previous letter):

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...0/Hartzell-AOPA_2010_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

In the 3rd paragraph they include the words "provide evidence that they have met the requirements of 61.129". This evidence is typically just another comment in the instrument training flights in your logbook. While in the past, DPEs did tend to apply "you have an instrument rating, so you're good", now many are specifically looking for either 1) instrument training past the instrument checkride (which would be de facto towards 61.129, sort of) or 2) documentation during the instrument rating training that the training also complied with 61.129.

They do admit that "some/most/or quite often all" of the requirements will be met during the instrument rating training.

Yes, it's ridiculous, because you cannot get an instrument rating without also being trained on the items in 61.129, which are extremely basic parts of instrument training. I actually had a Commercial applicant not be able to start a checkride due to this. Now, if I was to train someone for an instrument rating, I'd be entering "61.129a(3)(i)" to every remarks block, so it's covered if they ever pursue the Commercial in the future.
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There's apparently revised guidance on this issued in 2018.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or.../2018/Oord-AOPA_2018_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

It looks like an Instrument rating does not by itself guarantee compliance with 61.129. You also need to make sure you have an endorsement you met the "recovery from unusual flight attitudes" required by 61.129(a)(3)(i).
 
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I know for a fact that I practiced recovery from unusual attitudes. Also good input. Thank you.
 
I did recovery from unusual attitudes on my IR check ride as well. I'll have to look and see if they are noted in the logbook.
 
Having hijacked the thread, perhaps a few thoughts on accelerated training. I few down to the Dallas area to complete instrument training. In my case the school brought in a contractor where it became obvious that we had very different understanding resulting at one point with a shouting match in the cockpit. After landing I cited an FAA AC, though while not regulatory is generally accepted as such. In the end I flew home having spent a lot of money for nothing. Notable is I spoke to the DPE who was lined where he totally agreed with me, asking who was this CFII...?

Lessons learned. When you go into an accelerated course, go in with a lot of energy in reserve. You will work hard and not get much rest. And as cited above you have no idea what you are going to wind up with for an instructor. It could work out to your benefit, or you might have personality issues or in fact find that the instructor doesn't know what they are talking about. Unfortunately on this later point, once you are committed likely you have already invested a good deal of money.

For reference after a few months gap, I was able to get everything lined up with the original school and knock out the practical exam. At this juncture I'm very hesitant to try an accelerated situation again largely because of uncertainty of the instructor. And if I did I would work at length due diligence interviewing at length the instructor.
 
jsstevens said:
I did recovery from unusual attitudes on my IR check ride as well. I'll have to look and see if they are noted in the logbook.
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Technically the check ride isn't training (despite us all learning stuff during them!)
 
Pugs said:
Technically the check ride isn't training (despite us all learning stuff during them!)
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True. And I wrote that poorly. I was so trained AND did them on the check ride.
 
Just to close this loop. I went with American Flyers to complete my Commercial. They offer a 'Finish Up' program that perfectly matched my needs. The program involves a ground review and one flight with a CFI to assess your current status. Afterwards, they put together a custom program to get you to the finish line. I completed my Commercial quickly and efficiently and received a refund for unused funds. I highly recommend their program. I flew out of Morristown, NJ (KMMU).
 
Aye Effaar said:
Just to close this loop. I went with American Flyers to complete my Commercial. They offer a 'Finish Up' program that perfectly matched my needs. The program involves a ground review and one flight with a CFI to assess your current status. Afterwards, they put together a custom program to get you to the finish line. I completed my Commercial quickly and efficiently and received a refund for unused funds. I highly recommend their program. I flew out of Morristown, NJ (KMMU).
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I used AF (at ADS) for an accelerated MEI course. I thought they did a good job.

We used a Cessna 310. One thing that really stood out was that at the time they had two of them. One was down for maintenance when I was there, so I flew the other one. One day we had some problem with it - I forget, maybe a magneto or something similar. We went to lunch, the mechanics jumped right on it, took the part off the other 310 that was already down anyway, and we flew as scheduled after lunch, meaning virtually no delay in my training. I was pleasantly surprised.
 
Congratulations for getting it done! Thank you for sharing your story. You made a good decision in pulling out of that flight program in favor of something else. Flight training is one of those things that can easily go badly, especially if the wrong flight instructor gets involved...and policies, like the training with instructor only thing you encountered. Too many students can't make the change and essentially get ripped off.

I got my CFI's from AF at Santa Monica when they were there. My experience with them was great as well. I, too, had left the school I was at because I felt it wasn't working.
 
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