Opinions on a Lance expense

tawood

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Tim
Since my claustrophobic Mooney debacle, a nice Lance is under my consideration (thanks @eman1200 for the suggestion). Its a 1977, N/A, well equipped for IFR, even has A/C. What I'm wondering is how it compares with 4 place / 200 hp aircraft as far as annuals, maintenance, etc. Same? A little more? Considerably more? I understand it would be in general terms and vary from plane to plane, of course. I also know feeding it with gas will be a bit more as well. I would be using it as a 2 place, sometimes 4 place, travel machine and load hauler (@KayDeeW does not pack light! LOL).
I think a few regulars on here have Lance ownership experience...looking around @Rgbeard , @cowman ...sorry if I'm missing others.
 
I have many hours in them and love them. They have a lot of room. I flew the turbo version and you had to watch the manifold pressure at takeoff as to not over boost. I think it’s a great plane.,


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We looked hard at the Lance when we were looking, and for our mission (both of us are just pilot, wife, and one child) we went for the Mooney mainly looking at down the road reman costs. Overhaul on a big six is a good bit more than an IO-360, and that was the decider. Yes, the larger plane would have been nice, but for just three, a Mooney does the job.

So what I'm saying is other than fuel burn, I don't think the costs are that divergent until you get to reman time.
 
I would be using it as a 2 place, sometimes 4 place, travel machine and load hauler

How much load is this future load-hauling, travel machine going to be taking?
 
lance...............do it!
 
you'll spend more moneys on strippers juggies and you won't be the only lance in kentucky
 
As you say it's hard to pin down and most airplanes aren't quite an apples to apples comparison. However, going from a fixed gear Archer with a 4cyl to a retract Lance with a 6 my base annual price went from about $1k to about $2k. That doesn't include any extra stuff that needs done but I'd say the little incidental repairs that come up.... alternators, vacuum pumps, tires, etc aren't much different. Of course, you have the more expensive overhaul hanging over your head too.

The upshot is being a big cherokee model with many still in service you're not likely to run into unobtainum parts and any A&P ought to know how to work on them.
 
As you say it's hard to pin down and most airplanes aren't quite an apples to apples comparison. However, going from a fixed gear Archer with a 4cyl to a retract Lance with a 6 my base annual price went from about $1k to about $2k. That doesn't include any extra stuff that needs done but I'd say the little incidental repairs that come up.... alternators, vacuum pumps, tires, etc aren't much different. Of course, you have the more expensive overhaul hanging over your head too.

The upshot is being a big cherokee model with many still in service you're not likely to run into unobtainum parts and any A&P ought to know how to work on them.
Ok, you're a good comparison for me, as I'm upgrading from a similar plane as you did...how was the insurance difference?
 
Ok, you're a good comparison for me, as I'm upgrading from a similar plane as you did...how was the insurance difference?

Your best best on insurance would be to call and get a hypothetical quote, especially with how things have been in the past year. However, with a lot of PA28 time I was down to about 700/year on the Archer and the Lance started at around $3,000 for the lowest quote. After getting 100 hours in it that dropped to around $2300
 
The Lance is a big Arrow with two more cylinders. Don't over-think it.

My wife and I use ours as a two-person-plus-two-dogs-and-luggage hauler all the time. We occasionally have the third or fourth occupant, but most of the time it's us, and we have zero-guilt and lots of room.
 
My wife and I also fail to pack lightly.

Witness: our idea of a fun 3-day weekend:

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Damn Rusty I always get jelly when I see pics of your Big Arrow with the doors open full of stuff..... You even have the same general paint scheme as my Arrow.... Usually just me in the Arrow and maybe wife and kid... so far no issues going places when it is the three of us and light packing. But the ability to pile in three people plus actual baggage.... oh yeah!
 
I have owned my Lance for 1 year and 6 days. I moved up from an Archer. My first year has been pretty expensive. Had to overhaul the prop for $5k. Had a gear retraction issue that ended up only costing $200. I also did some upgrades to the radios/transponder. I burn 15.5 gph instead of 8. But I go 155 knots instead of 115. Insurance for me (no retract time prior and no IR the first year) has been insane. It was $5k for the first year and now it has dropped to $4500 for my second with adding 160 hours of experience and my instrument. I think my CFI buddy is actually keeping my insurance higher because he only has 75 hours of retract. I need to make him fly more this year. My annual has probably doubled.

Gas has been the big eye opener for me. It likes to burn fuel. But I enjoy my increase in speed and I can haul as many dogs as I want. I had a 140lb mastiff passenger a month ago. No way I would have gotten him up on the wing of the Archer. Getting him in the back door of the Lance wasn't so bad.

I'm usually flying solo, which is a waste with this plane, but I have put 6 passengers in it once and 5 a couple of times. It flies like a truck but I've already forgotten what the Archer felt like. The Lance is the new normal. It's also a very stable plane. You don't get tossed around as much as you would an Archer. 1000 extra pounds will do that.
 
P.S. The Lance is super comfortable from a width perspective. No more rubbing shoulders. You also get used to the long nose pretty quickly but trying to spot traffic at 12 o'clock low is impossible.
 
I have owned my Lance for 1 year and 6 days. I moved up from an Archer. My first year has been pretty expensive. Had to overhaul the prop for $5k. Had a gear retraction issue that ended up only costing $200. I also did some upgrades to the radios/transponder. I burn 15.5 gph instead of 8. But I go 155 knots instead of 115. Insurance for me (no retract time prior and no IR the first year) has been insane. It was $5k for the first year and now it has dropped to $4500 for my second with adding 160 hours of experience and my instrument. I think my CFI buddy is actually keeping my insurance higher because he only has 75 hours of retract. I need to make him fly more this year. My annual has probably doubled.

Gas has been the big eye opener for me. It likes to burn fuel. But I enjoy my increase in speed and I can haul as many dogs as I want. I had a 140lb mastiff passenger a month ago. No way I would have gotten him up on the wing of the Archer. Getting him in the back door of the Lance wasn't so bad.

I'm usually flying solo, which is a waste with this plane, but I have put 6 passengers in it once and 5 a couple of times. It flies like a truck but I've already forgotten what the Archer felt like. The Lance is the new normal. It's also a very stable plane. You don't get tossed around as much as you would an Archer. 1000 extra pounds will do that.
Thanks for the price point(s). I do have my instrument, about 1000 hours, and my complex, but very little retract time. I'm not overly worried about insurance though as I'm hoping it drops considerable once I get some time in type, and honestly I've never worried about gas (its the one expense I have complete control over). I have been logging quite a bit of instrument time lately but I've never used an AP, and this one has an AP with altitude hold, which I'm sure I would enjoy. Hand flying IFR, even VFR, gets tiresome at times.
 
Anyone with experience with factory A/C? I'm pretty sure I've seen planes that once had A/C that have had it removed, so I'm wondering if I need the added weight here in Michigan...? For three months out of the year though, it sure sounds nice!
 
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Mine is also a 77 so our planes would be siblings.....or something.

For AC all I hear about is trouble with them. I don't know much else. If you're a Facebook person there is a PA32 FB page that is awesome for asking questions and hanging out with other PA32 folk. Most of us PA32 POA folk are on it.
 
I have been logging quite a bit of instrument time lately but I've never used an AP, and this one has an AP with altitude hold, which I'm sure I would enjoy. Hand flying IFR, even VFR, gets tiresome at times.
I had about 1500 hours and a good amount of instrument flying before I flew with a real/solid AP. You’ll never want to go back. You are relaxed at your destination, your lady enjoys traveling with you even more because you have more brain power to interact, you’re further ahead of the airplane at all times…real game changer. If the prospective plane has a good one, that’s great. They are expensive to install.
 
Gas has been the big eye opener for me. It likes to burn fuel.

This is exactly what I was going to say. I don't have Lance ownership experience, but I do have small 4 seat (Tiger), bigger 4 seat (182) and 6 seat (205) experience, and the annuals and insurance and what not are all kind of incremental increases. They all cost the same to hangar, and maybe a little more here or there to annual, but the big difference is fuel burn.

PS - insurance will be more than an incremental increase, so there's that. Also, I would take overhaul costs with a grain of salt. If you're a typical owner, you'll probably be moving on to something else waaay before you need to overhaul. Yeah, yeah, it'll get baked into the sales price (sorta) and there's depreciation (sorta), but when it's all said and done, I wouldn't let the overhaul cost tail wag the dog.
 
I haven't had mine for a year yet, but I was quoted $2500 for the annual. For the most part, parts are pretty easy to find and reasonable compared to many others. Gas isn't that big of an issue; the Archer I used to fly got more or less 10nm/gal... The Lance does too, just a third again faster.

Between that and the extra space, it's a real traveling machine. Not really fun to fly, but if your mission is cross country with family, it's pretty damn hard to beat.

Prices have gone crazy in the last year, and insurance hurts until you get some time. Of course that's true of about any airplane right now.
 
Well, it seems I've lost one due to this crazy market. @KayDeeW and I looked at it yesterday, and it was very nice w/a low time engine, exceptional panel, good paint and interior, so I told the guy I'd give him his asking price, and I'd like to set up a pre-buy....
He responded, "Well, a guy from Texas earlier today sent me a 50% deposit, and he'll be coming Saturday to get it. I'm just showing it now to see if you can pay and take possession before Saturday." It was Thursday. I told him I'd need to at least set up a pre-buy and he simply said, "sorry." So, I assume this guy from Texas is buying a Lance sight unseen without a pre-buy.
 
Well, it seems I've lost one due to this crazy market. @KayDeeW and I looked at it yesterday, and it was very nice w/a low time engine, exceptional panel, good paint and interior, so I told the guy I'd give him his asking price, and I'd like to set up a pre-buy....
He responded, "Well, a guy from Texas earlier today sent me a 50% deposit, and he'll be coming Saturday to get it. I'm just showing it now to see if you can pay and take possession before Saturday." It was Thursday. I told him I'd need to at least set up a pre-buy and he simply said, "sorry." So, I assume this guy from Texas is buying a Lance sight unseen without a pre-buy.
Crazy. But not surprising. I got REALLY lucky and got mine just as the market was getting hot. It was a race to be the first one there willing to pay asking price (which was about 15% less than it's worth today) and place a deposit.

I did get a pre-buy, but it felt like a bit of a waste of time & money. Had I known what I’ve learned in the last 9 months I could've done a better job myself. Luckily it worked out okay, but we'll see what the first annual finds. At this point I'd be willing to buy a regularly flown, non-coastal based example with good logbooks without a prebuy. They're pretty simple airplanes without too many problems unless you're buying a turbo. Corrosion inside the wings is the biggest fear, but mainly an issue in corrosive environments. At this point they all have leaky fuel tanks or have been resealed. Most of the stuff that will kill the airplane is too invasive to find during a prebuy. Landing gear can have some issues, but nothing some money can't fix. Engine of course is big money, but pretty bulletproof so long as it isn't allowed to sit for extended periods.

Sight unseen though.. yikes. Possible he had someone local take a look at it. That might be the way to get one bought.
 
...Sight unseen though.. yikes. Possible he had someone local take a look at it. That might be the way to get one bought.
No, he mentioned the guy wired the 50% deposit within minutes of his first phone call. Seems like the current market could be ripe with fraud.
 
Thought I’d dig in my notes and share what was turned up in pre-buy, which then finished as an annual. This was a plane flown often, recently updated avionics, and cursory logbook review had no coastal type entries.
AW items
Breather hose from Home Depot
Leaking fuel pump
Throttle/mix/prop rod ends worn
Routing of fuel line away from exhaust
Valve gaskets leaking

Recommended repairs
Powerplant hoses old
Old a/p Servo removal
Remove ADF bracket, prime

The only real concerning (aka don’t fly this until fixed vs fly this to somewhere to get fixed) item was the fuel line way too close to exhaust on a turbo’d engine.

Converting to annual, plane was missing an STC for the turbo. The STC carried an AD for the old power plant hoses so that was 2 AMUs. And the Engine monitor was wired incorrectly. We will call the engine monitor troubleshooting 0.5 AMU as that required some fishing.
 
I have owned two Lances since about 1988. The first one had the factory A/C. (More on it below.) I had to sell the aircraft (N4498F) when I lost my job due to the RTC takeover of the Savings and Loan I worked for. It was a tough few years. It was 11 years (2005) before I was able to get back into flying and the first thing I did after getting current was find another Lance (N4306F) and I have had it since. While I had another job change about 4 years ago, including double house payments, etc., I worked hard to not have to sell this one as I had close to the exact plane I wanted. I am now back into heavy flying again this year.

As the the A/C. Unless you are based at a large airport in the south with a lot of taxi time, it's not worth the 70 pounds. I am based in FL and determined that my second Lance would not have A/C. You can't use it during take-off or climb. You can't use it in the pattern when landing. If you go to 8k or so, you don't need it during cruse. But, I am based at a large Class-C airport with a major Allegiant Air hub. (KSFB). I do spend a lot of time on the ramp and taxi-ways. It would be nice for that, but not at the costs. FYI, with my first Lance, I was based at a small airport and was only on the ground for about 4 minutes before take-off, so it did not even have time to cool us down before T/O. A/C maintenance was a big cost. At the time, there was a shortage of compressor belts and no legal substitute. The grove angle was wrong on any available belt. But, the A&P would install an available belt, but the live expectancy was short. AND(!), you have to remove the prop to replace the belt. Also, mine had the OLD Freon. I don't know if there is any STC to run newer Freon. If not, then there is another big cost. So, as I said, I will never own another Lance with the A/C. If I had to buy a plane with it, I would have it all yanked out. YMMV

I have had the engine overhauled in my current Lance. I did it at 1800 hours specifically so I could reuse the older, pre-problem, crankshaft and older, pre-problem cylinders. I had my local AI, who used to rebuild engines for one of the 'major' rebuilders, rebuild it. My overhaul in 2007 was $23,189.08. One of the biggest expenses at overhaul, and every so many year (maybe 7?), is all the oil and fuel lines that have to be totally replaced. Plan any overhaul to e near that limit. I did not plan well and had to replace 2 year old hoses.

If looking for a Lance, also look to see if they still have an operable auto-extension system. It requires some extra 'standard procedures', but it could just save your aircraft one day. I have had to fight at least one A&P that said "it must be removed per Piper." That is not true. Piper Auto-Extension is a topic that deserves it's own thread. Both of my Lance's had it.

I have a family of 5 (before the kids got married) and the Lance would carry everything you put in it. On one flight, after weighing all the bags, the girls put some heavy toiletries and other things in their purses and even sneaked an extra bag onboard. It was a hot summer departure, so I used the 8k runway. The climb-out was weaker than I expected, but it climbed all the way to 8000. When I got to the destination and started unloading the stuff, I realized what they did to me. To this day, I think I was over-gross about 150 pounds, maybe more. I have heard of people flying 300 pounds over, but within CG. I don't recommend it, but that is the story.

The older auto-pilot works well and my current Lance will even handle altitude and fly the approach. I highly recommend a Lance with the full auto-pilot. But, my first Lance did not have altitude hold but, even so, when trimmed out, it did not really need it during cruse.

Misc:
Recently, I actually flew a PA28 for the first time. It was tight. You will really enjoy the extra shoulder room in the Lance. Before the first Lance, I had a '68 C-182. Moving to the Lance was no big issue. The Lance on approach is stable. Just drop the gear as you intercept the ILS from level flight and it will just about match a normal glide-slope. Wait until below the clouds and then dump the flaps. After using the J-bar flaps, I don't ever want to use electrical flaps again. Landings need to be nose-high on the Lance. You got a lot of gear length in the front.

My Lance has a lot of speed-mods by the previous owner. I flight plan 145k at 8000 or 9000 feet using 15gph. Lean of peek will get you down to 14gph, but it will take more time and thus burn just as much fuel. Don't expect to fly above 9000 on the hershey bar wing. I have had it up to 14,000 one time to cross Lake Michigan to Greenbay, but it took a long-long time to get it up there. I added a 3-blade skirmisher (sp?) prop and love it. I have not flown a T-tail nor a tapered wing, but the gound-roll on the T-tail is much longer in the book than my normal tail. I would pass on the t-tail turbo version of the PA32R-300. Maybe it's better with the later -301, but heat was a reported problem in the early versions.
 
Additionally, now that my Lance is in good shape, figure $2500 for an annual. Except for 'new hose' years. I have also had repeated landing gear power-pack problems for a while, until I was out of town and needed it repaired. The A&P at that location was qualified to rebuild it and said that my problem was the re-builder being used by my A&P was doing a cheap job. No problems since then.
 
Don't expect to fly above 9000 on the hershey bar wing. I have had it up to 14,000 one time to cross Lake Michigan to Greenbay, but it took a long-long time to get it up there.
Weight dependant of course. Solo with 50lbs ballast in rear baggage and full gas she'll easily do 500'/min to 12000. Loaded up to 3600lbs and I'll get about 300fpm above 10k. On this last trip I got her up to 12k at max gross to top some weather, but it took a while. I don't think she would've gotten to 13.

Be sure to look at the w&b. There's a wide range. Mine has 1475 useful, but I can only put light stuff in the nose baggage. I normally carry 2 cases of water in the back. Moving the cg as fast aft as possible makes a huge difference in speed. Id say easily 5 knots.
 
For every pound you put in the rear baggage area, you can usually put one pound in the front baggage area. Put someone in the back seat and that normally opens up the front baggage to full capacity. Just remember that sometimes the front baggage can get a little warm.
 
How are prices on decent Lances? Looking at Controller, they seem to range between 100-215k. Is that the "new" pricing, or usually what they go for?
 
Man, I had not been watching the cost of a used Lance. My insurance is about to renew and I need to up the hull value a bunch. Prices seem to have doubled in the last 4 years for a Lance.
 
When looking at a Lance, watch out for 'over 5000 hours' as a new recurring wing spar inspection is required.
 
When looking at a Lance, watch out for 'over 5000 hours' as a new recurring wing spar inspection is required.
Depends on the type of 5000 hours. Mine is over 5000 total time and does not need the spar inspection.
 
How are prices on decent Lances? Looking at Controller, they seem to range between 100-215k. Is that the "new" pricing, or usually what they go for?
I bought mine for just under $130k a year ago. I bet mine would go north of $150k now and that's with an engine at 1500 smoh. I would consider mine a "decent" one with an older engine (that is purring just fine for now).
 
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