Operating in Class D without clearance

Dana said:
A few years ago I was going to a private airport inside a class D. I contacted the tower a few miles outside, and they steered me around for awhile before even entering the D, to avoid departing traffic. The traffic was actually no issue, I could see it, but I think they couldn't see me on radar (fabric plane with wood wings, no transponder) so they got nervous.
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Just curious: if they couldn’t see you, how were they steering you around?
 
Dana said:
I think they couldn't see me on radar (fabric plane with wood wings, no transponder) so they got nervous.
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Not all Class D airports even have primary radar. I can think of 3 near me who only track aircraft visually. (Got a big scolding from one of them when I was a student pilot and mis-reported my location to them on first contact. They were pretty unhappy when they finally spotted me somewhere else!)
 
I was told to remain outside of the delta at Gary, GYY once (yes Gary of all places), as they had maybe 4 aircraft in the airspace. I had to quickly find another airport without busting airspace. I guess you could do flight following or IFR to get in?
 
Our tower guys are pretty accommodating. The one time I heard them keep someone out, they gave them a pretty good idea of how long it would take to be able to fit them in. It didn’t take very long. Maybe a quick question of the estimated wait time would give them two pieces of info: you really do want in, and you’re willing to work with them.
 
mandm said:
I was told to remain outside of the delta at Gary, GYY once (yes Gary of all places)...
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Gary? "XXX will gladly comply."

I don't recall ever being denied access to a delta, but I have been encouraged to enter. :)

Nauga,
and a little TFOA...almost
 
nauga said:
I don't recall ever being denied access to a delta,
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Only time I’ve ever been denied was doing wildlife surveys over the river that flowed within half a mile of the airport.

But taking my 100-kt Maule into Class B got a lot easier once I started getting references from tower controllers.
 
Jim_R said:
Not all Class D airports even have primary radar. I can think of 3 near me who only track aircraft visually. (Got a big scolding from one of them when I was a student pilot and mis-reported my location to them on first contact. They were pretty unhappy when they finally spotted me somewhere else!)
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Don't they normally have a feed from a nearby facility if they don't have their own radar?
 
birdtrick said:
But you don't need a clearance to operate in their airspace.
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You don’t need a clearance to operate in C Airspace. Same establishment of communication is only required.
 
Dana said:
Don't they normally have a feed from a nearby facility if they don't have their own radar?
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I don't know about "normally". I just know that three towered fields near me have no radar insight into their traffic, only visuals. No idea if that's an unusual concentration or representative of the situation more broadly. At any rate, it's definitely a thing.
 
Jim_R said:
Not all Class D airports even have primary radar. I can think of 3 near me who only track aircraft visually. (Got a big scolding from one of them when I was a student pilot and mis-reported my location to them on first contact. They were pretty unhappy when they finally spotted me somewhere else!)
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lol, I have done that into a Charlie. But I was lucky, ATC asked if I could see a SouthWest plane coming in. I said, it was United.
Trying to contain his laughter, he told me I was east of the airport not west....

I will probably never forget that.

Tim
 
TommyG said:
You don’t need a clearance to operate in C Airspace. Same establishment of communication is only required.
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True, but once you are talking to them you need to what they ask.
 
I have had the tower advise to local flights ,if you go out you may not get back in a reasonable tie frame.The Tampa airspace is overcrowded on a regular basis and they are understaffed.can get very frustrating.
 
OP might try flight following with approach, who may or may not have jurisdiction within Class D airspace at any given airport.
 
PaulS said:
True, but once you are talking to them you need to what they ask.
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Yes exactly, just seems some pilots don’t grasp that D and C are the same requirements, and the pilot must still follow ATC instructions in D same as C.
 
Arrange a meeting with the tower chief - if a phone call isn't working; I bet he can give you a time that's mutually agreeable. Myself and a CFII friend got a pretty good accommodation with BWI (Baltimore) to fly into the inner harbor area - we gave them a radial and distance where we'd be and they worked with that. They also were welcoming for practice approaches outside their rush hours, especially late night.
 
AlphaMike said:
same as A, B, C, D and E...
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There are rare cases where ATC has control authority in class G. We had an LOA authorizing control in G for SAs at Beaufort. Almost 300 ft below the E.
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MauleSkinner said:
go for it. I’m guessing the reason they are less able to accommodate you is that they’ve become aware of your personality. You’re seeing the consequences of that…maybe you’ll see the consequences of not complying.
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Yeah I feel like I’m starting to get an idea as to why he’s being told to remain clear.
 
luvflyin said:
Supervisor: those planes were only two miles apart. That’s a loss of separation, you are being relieved from position.
Controller: no it’s not, the .65 is not regulatory.
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The .65 is not "regulatory." But it is an "FAA Order" telling its own personnel how to act on the job. So that guy is toast.
 
BIS is another unicorn. They do ASRs into Y19 in class G as well.
 
Velocity173 said:
BIS is another unicorn. They do ASRs into Y19 in class G as well.
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Interesting discussion. I wouldn’t think any kind of waiver would be necessary. Any more than clearing a plane for any Approach with a DA/MDA in Class G. GCA isn’t really ‘air traffic control,’ it’s just verbal ‘needles.’
 
I'm based in Bridgeport CT and a lot of the Long Island flight schools practice touch and goes at my home drome. The rare occassions that I have been told to remain outside the class D, the controller gave me a time in which to call back. Something like "call me back in 10 minutes" in which case I practiced turns. They know my N number and that I am based there however. But I would ask for a time in which to call back. That will let the controller know you are not going away and you are in effect, putting them on notice that they are going to have to deal with you. Maybe.
 
luvflyin said:
Interesting discussion. I wouldn’t think any kind of waiver would be necessary. Any more than clearing a plane for any Approach with a DA/MDA in Class G. GCA isn’t really ‘air traffic control,’ it’s just verbal ‘needles.’
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Well I don’t know if it was an actual waiver but a simple authorization. Conducting approaches to the air station was a given. Conducting approaches off field and in class G is a whole different ball game.

As far as GCA not really air traffic control, you can’t get anymore air traffic control than a GCA. These aren’t advisories once the aircraft is in the G. They’re definitely exercising air traffic control while in a class G. Now today with the GPS going into rwy 25 at ARW it’s not really critical but back in the day, the ASR was the only way of getting in during bad weather.
 
Velocity173 said:
BIS is another unicorn. They do ASRs into Y19 in class G as well.
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And it’s not authorized when the KBIS tower is closed. Any idea why that might be?
 
iamtheari said:
And it’s not authorized when the KBIS tower is closed. Any idea why that might be?
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Because the controllers providing the radar approach are based at KBIS. KARW has the same restriction.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Because the controllers providing the radar approach are based at KBIS. KNBC has the same restriction.
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Why is it keyed to the tower hours rather than the approach control hours? They’re probably the same hours, but it’s still imprecise.
 
iamtheari said:
Why is it keyed to the tower hours rather than the approach control hours? They’re probably the same hours, but it’s still imprecise.
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Yeah they’re both have the same operating hours. Wording between the two facilities is different but they mean the same. When the primary facility is closed, there are no controllers there to provide the approach.

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Velocity173 said:
Yeah they’re both have the same operating hours. Wording between the two facilities is different but they mean the same. When the primary facility is closed, there are no controllers there to provide the approach.

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Yeah. Seems at first to be self enforcing. If they ain’t there, you ain’t gonna get the Approach. But it’s nice to know ahead of time to accommodate your flight planning.
 
MauleSkinner said:
go for it. I’m guessing the reason they are less able to accommodate you is that they’ve become aware of your personality. You’re seeing the consequences of that…maybe you’ll see the consequences of not complying.
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His personality? Did I miss something? The OP hasn't provided his actual verbal interactions with ATC.
midlifeflyer said:
It will be fun to talk about it after listening to it on VASAviation and speculate about whether and how long the certificate suspension will be.

OTOH, we can also chalk this thread off as trolling.
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Posting a specific subject about interaction with ATC isn't trolling. The OP expressed frustration with the situation, but I don't see where he indicated he was going to operate illegally in contradiction with ATC.

The POA Thread Police need to chill a bit.

:rolleyes:
 
3393RP said:
His personality? Did I miss something? The OP hasn't provided his actual verbal interactions with ATC.
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No, but he provided several posts to indicate he really didn’t care what they said, he should be able to do what he wants because in his opinion there is no safety issue. Very much an anti-authority default, IMO.
 
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Well, I have even FURTHER bad news for the OP (and everyone else). 91.123 is in effect REGARDLESS of the airspace you are in. If you are in communication with ATC (flight-following, VFR advisories, whatever) anywhere and they give you an instruction, you have to comply as long as it is safe to do so (no emergency, etc.). So you'll just cancel FF and then do what you want? Nope. ATC can require you to stay in communication and continue to comply with their instructions even in airspace where communication is not required. Lots of pilots will argue this, but the FAA has made it clear that this is the case (Google "FAA" and "Karas Letter").

I (and others I've spoken to) have had it happen real-world:

ATC: "N1234 fly heading 180."
N1234: "N1234 cancel VFR advisories."
ATC: "NO. N1234 Stay with me. Fly heading 180."
...and I'm screwed.

Needless to say I'm using FF a whole lot less these days, especially with the advent of ADS-B.

C.
 
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