Operating in Class D without clearance

B

birdtrick

Filing Flight Plan
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Troy Hartman
I do aerial photography work in Southern California and more recently have had Class D tower controllers tell me they are too busy to let me operate in their airspace. It used to only happen once in a while but it is happening more often, and I end up wasting a lot of time and money when I turn around and leave without getting my work done. I'll ask nicely for reconsideration and get rejected. I am reaching a point where I'd like to just establish two way communications and simply tell the controller where I'll be operating. I understand I'll likely **** the controller off, but what can they do?
 
They can tell you to remain clear of Class D.

Have you tried a phone call to let them know what you’re needing to do and what you might do that would allo them to accommodate it?
 
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Can they though? I've called and they always say "traffic and workload permitting". That's a big help.
 
I always operate in class D without a clearance, though I do establish 2-way radio communication. ;)
[somebody had to give the snarky response, might as well be me]

On a related note, over the weekend I was denied VFR clearance for class B for the first time in over a decade. Flying near Seattle, requested the Seahawk transition (which I've done many times) and was told to remain clear of the Bravo. The controller said they were too busy. Oh well.
 
It's happening more and more often. Too busy. Seems more inexperienced controllers are in the tower now.
 
Can they tell you to leave? Well, of course they can tell you that, but do you have to comply if there is no safety issue in your PIC opinion?
 
What regulation gives a Class D controller the right to tell you to remain clear of the Class D airspace?
 
birdtrick said:
What regulation gives a Class D controller to right to tell you to remain clear of the Class D airspace?
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the right to tell you is part of the fact that they are responsible for and control the airspace. You merely have to comply.

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.​

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.
(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.
(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes.
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birdtrick said:
Can they though?
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Yes they can. But let's get the technicalities straight.

You don't need a "clearance." All you need is to establish 2-way communications. But once you do, they can instruct you to remain clear. Refusing would be a 91.123 violation.

Better choice for efficiency? Call in advance and ask for good times.
 
But you don't need a clearance to operate in their airspace.
 
birdtrick said:
But you don't need a clearance to operate in their airspace.
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go for it. I’m guessing the reason they are less able to accommodate you is that they’ve become aware of your personality. You’re seeing the consequences of that…maybe you’ll see the consequences of not complying.
 
birdtrick said:
I do aerial photography work in Southern California and more recently have had Class D tower controllers tell me they are too busy to let me operate in their airspace. It used to only happen once in a while but it is happening more often, and I end up wasting a lot of time and money when I turn around and leave without getting my work done. I'll ask nicely for reconsideration and get rejected. I am reaching a point where I'd like to just establish two way communications and simply tell the controller where I'll be operating. I understand I'll likely **** the controller off, but what can they do?
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Where is this.
 
Hawthorne for whatever reason has become a big problem. I need to operate 2.5 miles south of the field where nothing is going on and I’ll be told to go away. Occasionally Palomar. In doing this for 24 years in this area it’s never been an issue until this last year or so.
 
birdtrick said:
... I'll ask nicely for reconsideration and get rejected. I am reaching a point where I'd like to just establish two way communications and simply tell the controller where I'll be operating. I understand I'll likely **** the controller off, but what can they do?
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If after establishing 2-way radio contact (not a clearance), the tower says to remain clear of their airspace, the regs give you 3 options:
1. Comply and stay outside their airspace
2. State "unable" and tell them why
3. Declare an emergency
If you opt for (2) or (3), better have a good reason based on safety of flight that the FAA will accept if reviewed.

As far as I know, the FAR or AIM does not give you the option to argue with the controller over the radio. Not even if you do this "nicely".

My favorite suggestion here so far is to call the tower on the phone, tell them what you're doing and ask when are good days or times for it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
go for it. I’m guessing the reason they are less able to accommodate you is that they’ve become aware of your personality. You’re seeing the consequences of that…maybe you’ll see the consequences of not complying.
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It will be fun to talk about it after listening to it on VASAviation and speculate about whether and how long the certificate suspension will be.

OTOH, we can also chalk this thread off as trolling.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It will be fun to talk about it after listening to it on VASAviation and speculate about whether and how long the certificate suspension will be.

OTOH, we can also chalk this thread off as trolling.
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Yeah, I'm not buying that a 24-year commercial pilot doesn't know that he has to follow ATC instruction in controlled airspace. In the LA area, no less.

ETA: And supposedly a CFI.
 
I know HHR is a squeeze, but can you do your survey work above their class D? Say 2,501 or above? then you can shoot them the finger and not talk to them at all. Of course, if you stray just slightly outside of the lines, they will probably seek to burn you -- but you have much more defensible "dude my bad" in that scenario, rather than willfully ignoring an explicit ATC instruction.
 
It's not lost on me what this post looks like coming from somebody with my experience. But having the conversation with a group of pilots over the weekend there were strong opinions on both sides, so I didn't see it as completely stupid to post here. Controllers have a lot of control that sometimes they take too much advantage of, like bad cops. But that's how it goes.
 
birdtrick said:
... Controllers have a lot of control that sometimes they take too much advantage of, like bad cops. But that's how it goes.
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Also, there are new inexperienced controllers who want to do a good job but don't yet have the experience to handle complex busy scenarios. It's hard to tell the difference over a few brief radio calls, so assuming they are "bad cops" on a power trip doesn't seem fair.
 
You can tell pretty easily who the power trippers are. They don’t seem overwhelmed like the obviously inexperienced controllers.
 
birdtrick said:
Hawthorne for whatever reason has become a big problem. I need to operate 2.5 miles south of the field where nothing is going on and I’ll be told to go away. Occasionally Palomar. In doing this for 24 years in this area it’s never been an issue until this last year or so.
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Hawthorne can be an issue... used to shoot approaches into HHR and we were always being barked at by ATC. Considering a few times we were wing to wing with a 767/57/37 going into LAX... and I believe that more traffic is going into there, Torrence, Compton, and Long Beach I can understand why they can be a little snippy.

Palomar.. I don't get it unless the locals are complaining about the noise.. I've heard from a few there are some noise ordinance nazis on patrol 24/7 just looking for a fight. May be easier to not accommodate you so they don't have to do the noise paperwork.

Can your work be done by a drone?
 
If this thread isn't an example of the old timey saying "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" I don't know what is.

I've been in the aerial survey world for 16 years. We've flown over NYC, Chicago, etc airspaces and all over the SFRA in DC, let alone a class D. It takes some preparation and some coordination. If you're just showing up saying hi and then getting defensive when they say not now, I can see why you're not getting anywhere.

Unfortunately a few bad actors in this field ruin relations with ATC for all of us.
 
Pre-coordination has been a funny thing in this area. 75% of the time they say “no paperwork on file” when I get there but no worries, we get it done. I always pre-coordinate with LAX, San Diego, and John Wayne because they request it. Ontario doesn’t care if I do. I joke with the controllers by email and ask what does pre-coordination really do? They aren’t going to change a thing about their operation and always say traffic and workload permitting. A couple of the controllers agree pre-coordinating doesn’t do anything. Perhaps that’s why the paperwork isn’t in the tower when I arrive.
 
If you enter class D without establishing communications, and/or ignore tower's request for communication, you'll get a phone number to call. (I witnessed this happen about a month ago).
If you talk to the D tower and they tell you not to enter and you do, you'll get a phone number to call.
 
birdtrick said:
..... Too busy. Seems more inexperienced controllers are in the tower now.
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Or they really are too busy. I was turned down for a practice approach under VFR into KCRQ not long ago. Too busy. HHR tower is often dealing with law enforcement helos, traffic watch, the Mini Route over LAX and their own landing/departing traffic. Advanced Air pretty much owns the airport now. With the amount of flight training taking place in SoCal these days, your recent experience doesn't surprise me.
 
The recent "too busy" is, I suspect, mostly a result of the controller shortage and the fact that there are often fewer controllers working than there are supposed to be at nearly every controlling facility. This is certainly true on the west coast and maybe elsewhere too. So that results in an inability to support some activities that normally they'd be happy to allow.

There was another discussion I read recently, maybe here, about how it's been almost impossible in the last couple of years to get cleared to use the Mini Route transition through the LAX Bravo. That's another example of the same problem, they are short of controllers and don't have anyone to staff the position necessary to approve that transition.

So you're probably not encountering cranky controllers, you're encountering stressed/overworked controllers who are covering multiple stations and may literally be too busy to keep an eye on you in their airspace. I wish the FAA would solve this problem.
 
I’ve seen and heard, twice, Class D problems.

First time I was with my primary CFI years ago. The plan was a touch and go at a neighboring class D before heading back to my home class D. I was about 10 south on a straight in and given the “report 2 mile final”. Almost immediately I was given “cleared to land”. My CFI and I both looked at each other, confused, and I said “Warrior xxx is still 9 south”. Turns out someone had not only entered their airspace without 2-way communication, they had also turned final in front of us. Tower was not happy at all. I wanted to listen to THAT conversation but my CFI decided we should just go home.

Not too long ago, sometime this summer, I did hear tower tell someone to stay outside class D. There’s a 141 school at my airport and a certain times of the day they can saturate tower and the pattern. Tower apologized for the delay and got them in as soon as they could create a gap in the traffic.
 
Establishing communication and complying with the communication that results from that seems to be confusing for some.
 
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birdtrick said:
What regulation gives a Class D controller the right to tell you to remain clear of the Class D airspace?
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91.123 is the reg that you have to comply with. What gives the controller the “right” to keep you clear? This.
IMG_8541.jpeg
 
Matthew said:
Not too long ago, sometime this summer, I did hear tower tell someone to stay outside class D. There’s a 141 school at my airport and a certain times of the day they can saturate tower and the pattern. Tower apologized for the delay and got them in as soon as they could create a gap in the traffic.
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A few years ago I was going to a private airport inside a class D. I contacted the tower a few miles outside, and they steered me around for awhile before even entering the D, to avoid departing traffic. The traffic was actually no issue, I could see it, but I think they couldn't see me on radar (fabric plane with wood wings, no transponder) so they got nervous.
 
iu
 
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