keen9
Pre-takeoff checklist
With EasyActivate and EasyClose on the flight service webpage, you can activate (aka open) and close via text message.
Opening a flight plan while on flight following
- Thread starter azpilot
- Start date
denverpilot
Tied Down
Yep. Already mentioned that if you go thru Leidos’ tools you can do it. The argument is why the inconsistency in interfaces? And more importantly why pretend we aren’t headed for full surveillance?
If I took off and my aircraft code is being received, just open the thing. It’s not 1950 and we’re not walking into the FSS to talk to Bob the Friendly FAA briefer. We’re doing this all with computers now.
John Collins
En-Route
VFR Flightplans filed thru ForeFlight via Liedos (used to be Lockheed Martin Flight Service) have been able to be activated since version 6.0. Activate = Open. Although the FAQ could use some improvement, here is a current one:
Cancel and Amend works with IFR flightplans. Cancel, Amend, Activate, and Close works with VFR flightplans and this has been in the product since April of 2014. DUATS never had these capabilities, so they were only offered if one filed via Leidos. Leidos was the default filing system used whenever a customer did not provide log in credentials for DUATS or if filing was using the ICAO format.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Interesting. I suspect some of the reason I thought Activate wasn’t in the software for VFR was I assume it hid it - greyed it out when you had a DUATS login entered?
I always had a DUATS login entered from back in the bad old days where the debate was that a weather briefing retrieved on FF without a login “wasn’t legal” for purposes of proving one had done a proper pre-flight.
So I suppose when that change came along in FF for VFR I never saw it. Or thought it was the IFR stuff greyed our for VFR.
They definitely need to update and re-write the FAQ now that DUATS is dead. I probably haven’t attempted / needed to use it / used Leidos directly since I knew Leidos direct “worked better”.
denverpilot
Tied Down
And this seems to indicate that we have yet another inconsistency in this whole thing? ICAO filing means they have to drop the feature again?
Forward into the past. LOL.
John Collins
En-Route
ICAO filing via ForeFlight has always included VFR Activate and Close in the US. With FAA/Domestic filing via ForeFlight, there was a choice of using DUATS.COM with its limited functionality or Leidos with all the nice stuff such as amend, cancel,activate and close. Support would advise pilots if they want the extra features of Leidos, they needed to remove their DUATS.COM sign in credentials. It will become a moot point next month as all US VFR flightplans will be filed with Leidos.
ForeFlight never implemented ICAO using DUATS, it was only implemented via the Leidos API. DUATS.COM was always a teletype style interface and highly unwieldy to implement. With Leidos, the API was straight forward, fill in all the required fields and send a flightplan message, analyze the response as valid or an error message. With DUATS.COM, one had to simulate typing the user name, analyzed the response typed out, simulate typing in the password, analyze the response that was typed out, simulate the sequence to file a flightplan, analyze the response typed out, enter the first item of the flightplan, analyzed the response typed out, ... analyze the umteenth item, analyze the response typed out, and so on. Totally tedious, so when ICAO came along and was provided by Leidos, ForeFlight only implemented ICAO support using the Leidos API. Leidos also added many other user friendly features such as the ability to amend and cancel the flightplan or if VFR to activate and close the flightplan.
When DUAT.COM (the other original DUAT contractor, not DUATS.COM) was dropped for the DUATS II follow on contract, Ledios was awarded one of the two DUATS II contracts along with the existing DUATS.COM. The Leidos brief provides all the same content and complies with the DUAT II contract.
Quotes are from the current version of AC 00-45H Change 1:
The ForeFlight briefing uses the NWS weather information provided by Leidos, a DUATS II source. ForeFlight saves the briefing for a minimum of 120 days and simply repackages the Leidos briefing.
BrianNC
En-Route
So to clarify, if I file a VFR flight plan with FF, then 800wxbrief does not receive that flight plan, which means I can’t use their texting service to open and close? I know that’s exactly what you said but making sure anyway. lol.
denverpilot
Tied Down
All understood and even inferred from personal understanding that all FF does is implement API calls.
The complaint (from me, which is no longer valid) is that if you had a DUATS login in the software it didn’t exactly tell you “Hey, I can do more useful things if you remove that!” LOL.
UI/UX problem. And the bitrot in the FAQ. FAQs always experience bitrot like that unless updating them is linked to the release process.
On a bigger picture the complaint is there’s too many disparate behaviors between all of the software out there for flight plan filing.
Good to know it’s Leidos that causes the differences in features offered between Domestic and ICAO. Dumb, but your confirmation was expected. Different API coders, can’t stick to any standard of business continuity or services offered. LOL. Totally normal for this sort of web software garbage.
I’m curious if the problem mentioned above about Domestics still exists — filed via ForeFlight they don’t show up or work with the SMS interface at Leidos, but if you file via Leidos you get that feature.
May have to go test that. It sure as hell isn’t documented anywhere that I can find but the above comment definitely is how it worked (or didn’t work as the case may be) in the past.
Correct. I even swapped a few emails with FF about it. I told them I’d like to open and close via text and they said if enough people requested it they would consider adding it. So request!
denverpilot
Tied Down
Correct. I even swapped a few emails with FF about it. I told them I’d like to open and close via text and they said if enough people requested it they would consider adding it. So request!
Seems to me like they don’t have control over that? If they’re pushing the flight plan into Leidos’ API and it’s not showing up on the Leidos web page as having the “SMS feature” isn’t that on Leidos and not FF?
denverpilot
Tied Down
By the way @Half Fast after you’ve done a few rounds with ForeFlight tech support you realize that “if enough people request it” line is literally scripted. That’s the scripted answer to anything they don’t offer.
It’s probably true to an extent, but I’m not hanging my hat on there being a scoreboard that drives every decision there. Never seen that sort of customer request scoreboard at any software company that wasn’t ignored at least partially on a regular basis.
It sounds nice to customers though. Until they figure out it’s been the scripted answer for a decade. LOL.
We had customer requests like that in telecom. The official Customer Support priorities list shown to customers had their concerns listed. The real engineering goals lists that were confidential had 1/5 or less of those things listed as actual goals for a year. Resources never meet customer “needs” in software. Ever.
Mostly because as soon as you write it, they want it to do something else. For free. As a free upgrade. Also usually because the engineering division didn’t get a cut of “annual support” money. They only make money on new feature releases and sales of the next major version. The “support” money went into keeping staff on the phones 24/7 and the actual support for downtime and configuration issues and all the usual support stuff.
Depends on the company and their structure and how silo’ed it is.
It’s probably true to an extent, but I’m not hanging my hat on there being a scoreboard that drives every decision there. Never seen that sort of customer request scoreboard at any software company that wasn’t ignored at least partially on a regular basis.
It sounds nice to customers though. Until they figure out it’s been the scripted answer for a decade. LOL.
We had customer requests like that in telecom. The official Customer Support priorities list shown to customers had their concerns listed. The real engineering goals lists that were confidential had 1/5 or less of those things listed as actual goals for a year. Resources never meet customer “needs” in software. Ever.
Mostly because as soon as you write it, they want it to do something else. For free. As a free upgrade. Also usually because the engineering division didn’t get a cut of “annual support” money. They only make money on new feature releases and sales of the next major version. The “support” money went into keeping staff on the phones 24/7 and the actual support for downtime and configuration issues and all the usual support stuff.
Depends on the company and their structure and how silo’ed it is.
Yes, but you can already open in FF via internet. FF could create their own independent text feature to access that, sans Leidos.
John Collins
En-Route
I don't understand your comment. Leidos offers the API for either ICAO or FAA/Domestic Format and provides the same features to ForeFlight. The issue was with their competitor which had an archaic teletype interface. Remember DUATS.COM was around long before Leidos offered their competitive solution and was the only game in town. So all flightplans were originally thru DUATS.COM and they were all FAA/Domestic format. DUATS.COM did not offer activate/close/amend of flightplans and to interface with their system, users needed to provide their account information to third parties so their account could be accessed. Then Leidos came along and offered a modern API that did not require account information. The first support added features not offered by DUATS.COM. Then ICAO was offered.
There are differences between what one can do with ICAO verses the FAA/Domestic flightplan format, but for most piston GA users, they provide equivalent functions. For aircraft that are Jet/Turboprop, or need to use advanced RNAV navigation, ADS-B, data link communications, international or oceanic flight, the ICAO format is essential and is the main rationale for the FAA eventually sunsetting the FAA/Domestic flightplan form. But for simple IFR using conventional ground based navigation systems or VFR flight, ICAO format does the same thing only formatted differently and in most cases, one could be switched from Domestic Format to ICAO transparently without any impact to the pilot. For these pilots, ICAO is simply different, but functionally the same.
Regarding SMS verses internet, I see no technical reason why either could be implemented to Activate/Close a VFR flightplan.
denverpilot
Tied Down
People here are saying VFR flight plans originated from ForeFlight do not have the Leidos SMS features. (Text message to open/close.) While if created originally at Leidos (not via the API ForeFlight talks to) that same flight plan will gave those features associated with the user’s account and tail number associated with it.
That was also my experience with those in the past when NOT using the DUATS login in ForeFlight. I will eventually re-test to see if it’s true.
And you said those features were NOT available on any ICAO flight plan, if I understood you correctly.
So if the above information is correct, the matrix boils down to...
Use Leidos from start to finish if you want SMS open/close features and avoid IACO flight plans until they’ve added that feature to those.
Make sense what we’re talking about now?
Not “activate” inside ForeFlight but “open” via text message no matter what source originally shoved it into Leidos. Or what type of flight plan it is.
I’d go test it but I don’t want to put things into either system I’m not actually flying. So I’ll test when I have a chance.
John Collins
En-Route
Please quote me where you read that I said those features were NOT available on any ICAO flightplan. No, you did not understand me correctly. Both flightplan formats, ICAO and Domestic format have activate and close when filed via Leidos, either directly thru the Leidos portal and indirectly thru ForeFlight to the Leidos API. Also, open a flightplan and activate a flightplan mean the same thing.