Open cockpit?

[pigpenracing]

I love open cockpit. My first was a Skybolt, then I flew my Pitts model 12 open cockpit. I now have a Pitts S1 with the canopy off and just picked up a Stearman the other day. Open cockpit flying is fabulous! Nothing like being upside down with the wind in your face! Here is the pic of my Breezy I sold a few months back. I sold it to a friend and still get to fly it. Now this is open cockpit flying.

 

[aftCG]

I rather enjoy flying with the canopy open. I put the first several seconds of this video in to convey why

 

[LoLPilot]

Longest trip I took in one day was about 300 miles (150 miles there and back). It is wearing, in an open-cockpit airplane. When I was partners in a Stinson Station Wagon, I was surprised how I could fly a couple of hours and still feel pretty fresh.

So, no, they're not really suitable for gotta-be-there and gotta-be-ready to party travel. Great if an adventure is your goal, though....

Ron Wanttaja

I once read an old Flying magazine article that was about a couple guys buying a Grumman and flying it coast-to-coast. They asked Pilots they met along the way about why they flew and they said they were forced to ask themselves the same question - why were they doing this? The answers that came up most often and that they had to answer about their own trip was: romance. Most learned to fly for romantic visions of flying, and they concluded that their “cross country” trip was indeed for romantic reasons. They also decided that it was the best reason of all to fly.

I’ve conclused the same. As far as going places to be at those places, flying a small plane will never be practical as long as Southwest will fly you round trip for $300. So I don’t see a reason to own a plane for travel. If I had to fly for work and they’d reimburse my expenses? I’d rent a 182. But it wouldn’t be my typical mission. But I saw a video of a guy landing a Luscombe on an empty road out west and that got my heart racing a bit. So yeah I’d want to travel. I’d want to be able to say “hey wanna roll it?” if I ever took a friend up. I’d want to be able to blast off from grass strips. And it would have to not break the bank. This has lead me to a Champ (couldn’t roll it but I think they’re adorable and you can get the door STC and slide the window open), a Citabria (probably a 7ECA), or an EAB biplane.

 

[Dana]

It's a somewhat serious question. I love the lines of biplanes and they bring to mind images of anthropomorphized felines flying around in leather helmets, jackets and goggles . I've never flown in one but I am amazed at the affordability of things like Acrosports. I'm loving my tailwheel training and I'm thinking I may want to own a t/w. The cost of parts for certified aircraft and the fact that I am mechanically inclined makes the EAB option attractive to me and there are a number of really pretty biplanes available in that vein.

To address your second point first, I'll never again own a non experimental. I could never afford to pay an A&P for every little thing, and I'm always tinkering or improving.

I'm just about to buy my third biplane, before that it was a couple of ultralights. No, they aren't ideal cross country machines, you do get beat up by the wind. But I did fly my Starduster home from Memphis to Connecticut when I bought it, 1000 miles over 4 days, camping out under the wing. It was a wonderful trip.

The new plane (A Hatz) will be the first two seater I've owned since the T-Craft I had 30 years ago.

 

[keen9]

I want to finish my t/w and HiPo first to see if he’d let me fly I’ve airborne so we could put some Waco time in my logbook!

The Waco flight was my first logged high perf, T/W, and first aerobatics. I flew all but takeoff and landing, and logged 0.7 for the 30 minute flight package as he gave me some taxiing instruction and didn't count the ground time in the 30 minutes.

 

[LoLPilot]

To address your second point first, I'll never again own a non experimental. I could never afford to pay an A&P for every little thing, and I'm always tinkering or improving.

I'm just about to buy my third biplane, before that it was a couple of ultralights. No, they aren't ideal cross country machines, you do get beat up by the wind. But I did fly my Starduster home from Memphis to Connecticut when I bought it, 1000 miles over 4 days, camping out under the wing. It was a wonderful trip.

The new plane (A Hatz) will be the first two seater I've owned since the T-Craft I had 30 years ago.

So you’ve been happy with Experimental ownership? That’s a biggie for me there. I love the idea of doing most of my own work and of tinkering but at the same time I worry a bit about buying something built in someone’s shop as a hobby. Oddly enough that wouldn’t faze me if it were a car or motorcycle and in an open cockpit I think I’d typically wear a ‘chute so I shouldn’t worry too much I guess.

 

[LoLPilot]

The Waco flight was my first logged high perf, T/W, and first aerobatics. I flew all but takeoff and landing, and logged 0.7 for the 30 minute flight package as he gave me some taxiing instruction and didn't count the ground time in the 30 minutes.

That’s super cool! What’s he like as an instructor?

 

[DaleB]

So you’ve been happy with Experimental ownership? That’s a biggie for me there. I love the idea of doing most of my own work and of tinkering but at the same time I worry a bit about buying something built in someone’s shop as a hobby. Oddly enough that wouldn’t faze me if it were a car or motorcycle and in an open cockpit I think I’d typically wear a ‘chute so I shouldn’t worry too much I guess.

Disclaimer: I am just Some Guy On The Internet to you. Spent some time building an RV-7, sold that, bought and fly an RV-12 already flying, and am building an all wood open cockpit biplane. So I'm not totally ignorant, but I'm no expert.

Buying and owning an EAB is a little different that a factory built plane. On the EAB, I think you really want to have someone very familiar with the type (preferably a builder) do a thorough pre-buy inspection. You CAN do all your own work and modifications, but it's not a requirement and you'll still be paying an A&P to sign off on the annual condition inspection. The big difference is, there's typically no factory maintenance manual to say what's "right". "Right" is determined by the owner and maintainer. That is usually based upon the plans, plus accepted practices, AC43.13, etc.

For most of the planes you're talking about, there is an active community that will be happy to help out and answer questions, look at areas where you have questions, and often give you frank input on specific airplanes that might be for sale. Check out biplaneforum.com, there are some incredibly knowledgeable people over there.

 

[Grum.Man]

I wouldn't worry about any of the modern experimental aircraft designs. As long as there is a rivet in every hold you about can't go wrong. They are inspected and deemed airworthy by knowledgeable people. In the case of the RV's I agree you should have another RV builder inspect it preferably one that has built a few of them.

I'm a little more skeptical of a wooden airplane as you kind of need to know what you are doing on those and it's easy to hide poor craftsmanship. With that said, most of them are old enough now where if they haven't come apart they probably want.

 

[DanWilkins]

I recommend getting some time in a little biplane. They are around and many owners are willing to introduce their plane to those with a sincere interest. That's how it happened for me.

 

[LoLPilot]

I recommend getting some time in a little biplane. They are around and many owners are willing to introduce their plane to those with a sincere interest. That's how it happened for me.

I’d like to do that. When I bought my first bike I’d never ridden before and was extremely lucky that when I got the hang of getting it moving and finally cracked the throttle I thought “this is fun.” Substantially lower investment though!

 

[DaleB]

I’d like to do that. When I bought my first bike I’d never ridden before and was extremely lucky that when I got the hang of getting it moving and finally cracked the throttle I thought “this is fun.” Substantially lower investment though!

The similarity extends further than that. When I bought my first bike I'd never ridden before (unless you count dirt bikes at Boy Scout camp one summer). Bought one and damn near killed myself numerous times before I could ride more or less safely.

The consequences of dropping a bike at low speed vs. dropping a biplane at are a little different, though.

 

[LoLPilot]

The similarity extends further than that. When I bought my first bike I'd never ridden before (unless you count dirt bikes at Boy Scout camp one summer). Bought one and damn near killed myself numerous times before I could ride more or less safely.

The consequences of dropping a bike at low speed vs. dropping a biplane at are a little different, though.

That’s too funny that we both did that. Yeah technically I have much more airplane training than I did motorcycle training. I was 18 when I did that. My dad used to ride so he helped me pick a bike out, I got the “motorcycle operator’s manual,” from the DMV, we towed the bike to my parents house (kind of out in the country) and after I read the book my dad talked me through starting it and the clutch on a bike vs on a car, etc. I learned by “wow that was scary I won’t do that again,” or “that actually worked well.” Ten years later I took a riders course (I did already have my license via the road test) with one of my friends who had to take it and got a lot out of it.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I love the idea of doing most of my own work and of tinkering but at the same time I worry a bit about buying something built in someone’s shop as a hobby.

What do you worry about?
Wings falling off because the builder forgot a bolt or someone used "structual Bondo"? Pretty much doesn't happen (it does, but it happens with type certificated aircraft as well...)
Less than stellar job with some of the systems such as fuel / electrical? Yea, that seems to be a lot more common. But, huge problems tend to get filtered out in the first 100 or so hours. Others can be dealt with.

I bought an already done been flying homebuilt - worked/works for me. On those occasions when I consider something type certificated, pause, take a deep breath, yea, that would be a nice airplane, but don't be a moron and actually buy one.
My ride is far from perfect, but I can chunk away at the things I would like to see improved pretty much on an as-desired schedule.

 

[LoLPilot]

What do you worry about?
Wings falling off because the builder forgot a bolt or someone used "structual Bondo"? Pretty much doesn't happen (it does, but it happens with type certificated aircraft as well...)
Less than stellar job with some of the systems such as fuel / electrical? Yea, that seems to be a lot more common. But, huge problems tend to get filtered out in the first 100 or so hours. Others can be dealt with.

I bought an already done been flying homebuilt - worked/works for me. On those occasions when I consider something type certificated, pause, take a deep breath, yea, that would be a nice airplane, but don't be a moron and actually buy one.
My ride is far from perfect, but I can chunk away at the things I would like to see improved pretty much on an as-desired schedule.

That really does make me feel a lot better about things. I’d certainly enlist the help of an A&P with anything I wasn’t totally confident in. Like I do my car. My mechanic knows that when I call him and say I need something done it’s something good. If it’s something I’m sure about I don’t even bother him and if it’s something I’m comfortable but iffy with I’ll call him and ask him if I could drop by so he could take a looksee and tell me if my work looked okay to him. I’ve not had a problem with doing that and he’s taught me a few things along the way.

 

[Ken Ibold]

So you’ve been happy with Experimental ownership? That’s a biggie for me there. I love the idea of doing most of my own work and of tinkering but at the same time I worry a bit about buying something built in someone’s shop as a hobby. Oddly enough that wouldn’t faze me if it were a car or motorcycle and in an open cockpit I think I’d typically wear a ‘chute so I shouldn’t worry too much I guess.

It's all in the prebuy. When I was buying my EAB Pitts, I sent it to THE Pitts guru in the country for a prebuy. His reply, "This is built better than any of the stuff coming out of Afton" said it all.

The quality of EABs is all over the place. Some are slapped together, sho 'nuff, but a great many are painstakingly built by craftsmen who find the joy in the building process. THOSE are the ones to get.

 

[Dana]

So you’ve been happy with Experimental ownership? That’s a biggie for me there. I love the idea of doing most of my own work and of tinkering but at the same time I worry a bit about buying something built in someone’s shop as a hobby. Oddly enough that wouldn’t faze me if it were a car or motorcycle and in an open cockpit I think I’d typically wear a ‘chute so I shouldn’t worry too much I guess.

As others have mentioned, the risk seems a lot less when you're buying a plane that already has a few hundred hours on it. OTOH, you'll sometimes find planes with only a few hours, still in the phase 1 test period. Sometimes these are planes that scared the pilot on the first flight, but there are also some master craftsmen who like to build more than fly.

As with any aircraft, if you're not comfortable with inspecting it yourself a good pre-buy by somebody familiar with the design, or at least with the construction type.

 

[LoLPilot]

Thanks for the responses all!

First I need to finish my t/w, HiPo and IR. I also need to find out if this open cockpit business is for me! But the responses have helped and I think I’ll get in touch with Kevin and just ask him not to hang me from the shoulder harness during the first ride!

 

[keen9]

That’s super cool! What’s he like as an instructor?

Kevin is great at least for my learning style. He let's you do things your way, and gives just the right amount of guidance to get you doing it better.

PS I am probably biased at this point. There is a really great unpainted RV-9 in the hangar across from the one he keeps at KCPS .

 

[j1b3h0]

Romance. You said it all. On a warm day there is nothing quite like climbing in my Stearman, listening to that little round motor start up and belch a puff of smoke. Lots of people may disagree but I think a light airplane is a very impractical way of traveling. It depends a great deal on the skill and experience of the person in the hero-chair, the weather, wind, and the flavor of airplane. And the more adaptable to actually going somewhere an aircraft is, the more obscenely expensive it becomes. But, as romance goes, it’s certainly as good a bargain as say, a wooden sailboat. Try it. Dress appropriately, wear sunscreen. Smell the grass, feel the temperature changes. It’s all that, and there are some very fine flying open cockpit airplanes. After you sample the silky, ball-bearing, finger tip controls of a Waco or Stearman all other light planes feel like jalopies.

 

[pigpenracing]

We just got a new one today

 

[LoLPilot]

Romance. You said it all. On a warm day there is nothing quite like climbing in my Stearman, listening to that little round motor start up and belch a puff of smoke. Lots of people may disagree but I think a light airplane is a very impractical way of traveling. It depends a great deal on the skill and experience of the person in the hero-chair, the weather, wind, and the flavor of airplane. And the more adaptable to actually going somewhere an aircraft is, the more obscenely expensive it becomes. But, as romance goes, it’s certainly as good a bargain as say, a wooden sailboat. Try it. Dress appropriately, wear sunscreen. Smell the grass, feel the temperature changes. It’s all that, and there are some very fine flying open cockpit airplanes. After you sample the silky, ball-bearing, finger tip controls of a Waco or Stearman all other light planes feel like jalopies.

Now you're making me want to do the Waco flight even more. The Waco and Stearman are, IMO, some of the most beautiful airplanes ever produced and I would love to own one someday.

We just got a new one today View attachment 67329 View attachment 67330

BEAUTIFUL!!

 

[j1b3h0]

 

[kbrown66]

Fly with doors off in the Summer....a little extra noise is well worth breeze.

 

[Dana]

After you sample the silky, ball-bearing, finger tip controls of a Waco or Stearman all other light planes feel like jalopies.

Finger tip??? My recollection of flying a Stearman is both hands and all my strength on the stick to do anything but gentle maneuvering.

 

[j1b3h0]

Finger tip??? My recollection of flying a Stearman is both hands and all my strength on the stick to do anything but gentle maneuvering.

I have pilot friends move one of the ailerons while standing behind the wing. They’re always astonished. The ailerons are so light they feel as though they’re not connected to anything. You’d be correct to say Stearman controls require a pilot to really move the stick around - unlike say a Glasair, where the stick hardly moves at all, but unless you were doing loops or rolls, three fingers and a thumb are all that is required.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Finger tip??? My recollection of flying a Stearman is both hands and all my strength on the stick to do anything but gentle maneuvering.

The example I flew was not like that at all. One hand on the stick and stick/rudder forces that were not significantly different than the Supercubs I was also flying at that time.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Anyone familiar with the SV4 biplane? I get to fly one soon here in Germany.

 

[3393RP]

I have a few hours in Stearmans, and also rode as a passenger doing acro in one. Some of the most fun I've had in the air.

The best wind in my face experience was flying from ACT to FTW in the Collings Foundation's B-17 Nine-O-Nine. I was the only non-crew passenger on board and wandered all over the aircraft. The upper hatch in the radio room was open, and I stood on some framing so I could get out in the air stream.

I took some great photos as we were flying along. That's the Nine-O-Nine in my avatar pic, taxiing in at ACT.

 

[LoLPilot]

Anyone familiar with the SV4 biplane? I get to fly one soon here in Germany.

They sure are cool looking! Let me know how it is!

I have a few hours in Stearmans, and also rode as a passenger doing acro in one. Some of the most fun I've had in the air.

The best wind in my face experience was flying from ACT to FTW in the Collings Foundation's B-17 Nine-O-Nine. I was the only non-crew passenger on board and wandered all over the aircraft. The upper hatch in the radio room was open, and I stood on some framing so I could get out in the air stream.

I took some great photos as we were flying along. That's the Nine-O-Nine in my avatar pic, taxiing in at ACT.

That’s awesome. I’d love to ride in a B17!

 

[3393RP]

That’s awesome. I’d love to ride in a B17!

Check the websites for the Collings Foundation, AZ CAF, Madras Maiden, and other touring B-17s.

They're probably charging over $400 for a ride these days, but where else can you get that experience?

I've also flown in the Collings B-25 Tondelayo and B-24 Witchcraft.

It's a fantastic experience. Around 2006 I was standing on the ramp at the DAL Frontiers of Flight museum looking at the Collings B-17 before my B-25 flight, and a tall elderly gentleman standing next to me said "The last time I flew a B-17, I left it in a parachute".

His airplane was on one of the No Ball missions in early 1944, which were tasked with destroying V-1 launch sites near the Pas de Calais. The aircraft was hit by flak and the crew bailed out. He spent the rest of the war at Stalag Luft III.

There aren't many of those aircrew still around. Talking to one of them is a wonderful experience.

No Ball information:

https://www.b24.net/storiesKeilman6.htm