On the runway, ready for takeoff and then...

It is possible to adapt the POH checklist and re-write it for more sensible use. The takeoff checklist that came in the POH of my 1974 AA-5 is actually quite usable in terms of length, with a few items I've added (for modern avionics, AP, and IFR equipage) and a few items removed (like the now-removed vacuum system, mechanical gyro adjustments, and manual transponder settings.). Takeoff, landing, and emergency checklists should actually be concise enough that you will actually use and comply with them accurately. If there are 45 items in checklists, they will be difficult to consistently comply with.
 
LongRoadBob said:
for experienced folk this must seem stupid, that I’m hung up on semantics and just need to use common sense, by I am gettin very mixed messages, CFI pounds in that “just follow the checklist”, and yet the list is incomplete. So I just get the message that it is a game. I don’t like that. I like to know the logic behind what I’m doing, but it seems like either I’m “not at the level” of learning that yet, or else it’s as incomplete as it seems.
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Most GA checklists are a disaster. Your observation is correct.

The problem the CFI faces is that only the manufacturer checklist is a legal document required to be on board. So we have to teach to use it.

For personal aircraft (including mine) you’ll see owners completely re-write the things so they make sense. The problem is, if you have to take a checkride in your aircraft some examiners will appreciate that effort and others will say to use the legal document. Catch-22.

And then you have airplanes like mine where an STC modified the manufacturer checklist but didn’t provide reprints or addendums like you’d see in today’s manuals, so you get forced to print your own to even make the aircraft legal.

The newer AFM format in newer aircraft is a hell of a lot more comprehensive and designed better to be modified by things. The old POH stuff in older airplanes is a complete cluster...

The good news is that you see it. Lots of people don’t analyze and notice the errors of omission and steps in the wrong order or section.

Many 141 schools and other schools DO just re-write the things to get them concise and organized well for normal ops, and emergencies. Even just color boxing certain procedures makes a world of difference on where your eyeballs should go.

The only thing I say to anyone who wants to mark up a checklist for themselves with new things is that to keep it legal only add things, never delete anything out from the manufacturer’s wording. I’ve seen folks add things like checking and setting up their iPad that didn’t exist when the POH was written in 1975.

It helps them be consistent, and that’s all anybody is really looking for. If you do it consistently one way it can be made into a flow and the checklist remains a checklist instead of a do-list.

Is your instructor teaching you flows? An example of this might be the Cessna emergency checklist for an engine failure. If you start on the floor at the fuel cutoff (check both or fullest tank in stuff without a both setting) and work your way up and then all the way to the left you’ll get everything.

Fuel cutoff, straight up and slightly right ... mixture rich, now go left, prop, throttle, carb heat ON, keep going left past the yoke, mags (the one is missed all the time), if you have one boost pump on, and the other one people miss, primer In and locked.

With good flows you can do everything needed nearly blindfolded. Then the checklist is checking to see if you did it all.

Don’t get too hung up on the awful checklists... until you’re flying something new enough to have an AFM. Almost all POH era lists suck.
 
As a side note, at non-towered airfields, I've seen traffic pattern/runway incursions happen before because somebody was NOT transmitting/listening on the correct frequency (or their radio had unknown problems) and they couldn't necessarily see the other aircraft when they looked in a particular area. Consider doing a com check with the FBO or unicom or even a blind com check transmission.
 
LongRoadBob said:
It sure how it is with others, but we have separate “run up” and also “pre takeoff” on our clubs checklist.
Pre-takeoff includes such things as last check of free yoke, mixture full rich, autopilot off, trim set to takeoff, transponder set to ALT, flaps up, passenger brief, emergency procedures (if on runway throttle to idle, brakes, if after takeoff nose down for 70 kias, la d straight ahead, etc. note time, check runway agrees with compass, etc.

This takes a minute or two.
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So.... just curious. Where does the “pre takeoff” portion of the checklist occur? All of that should happen in the runup area, with the sole exception of compass check (which I always fail to remember) and visual check on flap position (which I always remember because taking off with misconfigured flaps can ruin your day). You are probably near sea level. My airport elevations are all 4000+ so we lean for takeoff in the runup and just leave it at that setting. If I flew at sea level probably setting the mixture to rich would be my last in-cockpit action before taking the runway. Even if needing to back taxi. Once on the runway the plane needs to be configured for flight. As someone else said your takeoff begins when you cross the hold short line.

If all of those things are happening on the runway please understand that you are creating a safety hazard for others, as well as delaying other pilots and needlessly burning avgas. It may be your club policy and maybe your CFI insists on you following it, but nobody else flies like that. Or shouldn’t be in any case.
 
LongRoadBob said:
but never after run up
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Nope, because you should be taking off full rich typically and just pushing all the knobs full-forward when you go full power to take off

10 seconds is kind of a long time to sit on the runway. It sounds fast but if you have ever stared at a clock for 10 seconds it's a bit of time, especially at a busy airport

I think you need to change your mindset, that once you enter the active runway you are in flight mode.. that 5-10 sec prep (sounds like it's psychological mostly) should happen during run up, etc, prior to entering, not once you're on the runway

Safety is of course number 1 and it sounds like this just comes down to a proficiency, currency, familiarity kind of thing.. the solution? More flying! :D
 
woodchucker said:
Once on the runway the plane needs to be configured for flight.
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Yes!!! I will only add one bit to this, the plane a*the pilot* should be configured for flight once you are on the active runway
 
Tantalum said:
Yes!!! I will only add one bit to this, the plane a*the pilot* should be configured for flight once you are on the active runway
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Yep! Which means I need to toss the empty beer can before ensuring the canopy is secure! :D It’s on that checklist somewhere!

And for @LongRoadBob I am not implying you are doing anything wrong necessarily by following club/CFI policies. You are a student and I totally get that. But if you don’t learn how to complete *most* final checks prior to taking the active it will become an issue at some point. It’s a discussion for you to have with your CFI.

You mentioned another club flying out of a C? Definitely look into it. Maybe see if you can meet with a CFI from that club to compare and contrast procedures.
 
Why would you enter the runway prior to being ready to takeoff, that is just asking for problems.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Understood. And understand.

We fly out of a little airport (oldest one in Europe I believe) G class, uncontrolled. I see the runway as a place I want to spend the least time on, for safety. Even with our weird (to me...but who am I to judge?) checklist the instructors generally still push for quickness.

I’m a little torn. The club I’m a member of right now is “the biggest club in Norway” which I actually see as both a plus and a minus. Plus because of resources, minus because they don’t have that many trainer airplanes and more members booking it, students like me as well as folk that want to take planes out for a tour which I understand.

I’m a little torn because even though I am apprehensive about it, there is another club (the only other real choice for me) up at a major class C airport, that costs more, and so far I’ve had a problem even just booking meeting the folk there, but that each flight would mean communicating with a major airport ground, tower, and approach and departure. I don’t want to end up with a PPL and be wary of entering class C, or other airspace’s than G. but I’m really considering again tying them. The only way to get good at this I think is with that kind of pressure.

I’m really leaning toward that right now.
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I trained at a class C and I do think it prevented me from being scared of it later.

What I would have done in that situation is to turn my plane and look for him while simultaneously talking on the radio, and then if he’s not verbally responding or initiating a go round, taxi my plane into the grass - hopefully there is some and it’s not too soft, muddy, gravelly or bumpy or a drop off a hill. Unless I saw he was obviously so high he was going to overfly me on the landing but not sure I wouldn’t still move my butt out of the way.
 
The Navion has a real slow approach speed. A guy pulled out on the runway while we were on final. The instructor (who had not flown with me in the Navion) wants me to go around. I told her to wait a minute that they'll probably be gone by the time I got to the threshold.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Understood. And understand.

We fly out of a little airport (oldest one in Europe I believe) G class, uncontrolled. I see the runway as a place I want to spend the least time on, for safety. Even with our weird (to me...but who am I to judge?) checklist the instructors generally still push for quickness.

I’m a little torn. The club I’m a member of right now is “the biggest club in Norway” which I actually see as both a plus and a minus. Plus because of resources, minus because they don’t have that many trainer airplanes and more members booking it, students like me as well as folk that want to take planes out for a tour which I understand.

I’m a little torn because even though I am apprehensive about it, there is another club (the only other real choice for me) up at a major class C airport, that costs more, and so far I’ve had a problem even just booking meeting the folk there, but that each flight would mean communicating with a major airport ground, tower, and approach and departure. I don’t want to end up with a PPL and be wary of entering class C, or other airspace’s than G. but I’m really considering again tying them. The only way to get good at this I think is with that kind of pressure.

I’m really leaning toward that right now.
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I fly and instruct out of a busy class D airport. There is a class C nearby, which is actually quieter than the D. But my students are required to fly I; and out of the C airport and a further away airport without any input from me prior to solo.

Reason, at least a couple of times a year there is a gear up or some other problem that shuts the runways down. So if my student Is up there solo, they know to go to the C to land.
 
You don’t enter the runway until you’re ready to take off. Do you pull onto the interstate and park when you change the oil in your car?
 
ktup-flyer said:
You don’t enter the runway until you’re ready to take off. Do you pull onto the interstate and park when you change the oil in your car?
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gee...yeas, I do that all the time, is that...is that frowned upon? The other motorists seem to encourage me, what with all their horn honking, and waving.

It’s really a stretch calling that the same thing. There are at least some extra checks you need to do JUST before takeoff. Maybe some do it while still taxiing, but there is a range of time most planes sit, after they have backtracked and are pointed the right way.

my instructor has I think 30+ years flying, and much of them at this airport, so I’m doing as he instructs for now. As I said, will definitely talk with him about what he and the club think about doing almost all before entering.
 
Ktup-flyer is right, unless you are at a tower controlled airport and told to line up and wait, you should be ready to go once you cross the hold short line.
 
One of the airports in my area forbids run-up anywhere other than at the line-up position on the runway.

Kenny Phillips said:
Yeah, I have never done a runup on a runway, and never will, unless there are armed bandidos running after me, in which case I'll do a running runup on the runway.
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I am ready to go. And there are things I have to do on the runway, such as check runway heading, record departure time and double check the takeoff checklist. I might run the engine to full if I'm doing a short field takeoff. These things don't take long. If my 10 seconds are causing anyone angst, I apologize but I won't change how I fly based on peer pressure.
 
Grum.Man said:
with the exception of lining up the compass the rest of that should be done before entering the runway.
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I say set your DG before entering the runway. A heading is a heading. The only real argument I've heard from folks about waiting until on the runway is for the purposes of double checking that you're actually taking off on your intended runway. But if that's the case, it means it's risky to fly any airplane that has a wet-compass only. ;) Drives me nuts these flight school students/renters who spend 5 minutes doing their checklist at the hold short line in a 152, then pull out on the runway, line up, and sit there another minute before taking off.
 
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LongRoadBob said:
It sure how it is with others, but we have separate “run up” and also “pre takeoff” on our clubs checklist.
Pre-takeoff includes such things as last check of free yoke, mixture full rich, autopilot off, trim set to takeoff, transponder set to ALT, flaps up, passenger brief, emergency procedures (if on runway throttle to idle, brakes, if after takeoff nose down for 70 kias, la d straight ahead, etc. note time, check runway agrees with compass, etc.

This takes a minute or two.
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Consider moving yoke, autopilot, trim, squawk, and flaps to pre-taxi. Pax and departure briefs should be complete before engine start.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
RoscoeT said:
I say set your DG before entering the runway. A heading is a heading. The only real argument I've heard from folks about waiting until on the runway is for the purposes of double checking that you're actually taking off on your intended runway. But if that's the case, it means it's risky to fly any airplane that has a wet-compass only. ;) Drives me nuts these flight school students/renters who spend 5 minutes doing their checklist at the hold short line in a 152, then pull out on the runway, line up, and sit there another minute before taking off.
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well, again all great advice. And I get that some think one shouldn’t least time possible on the runway. Makes sense to me. Least amount of time.

And I don’t know if different in the US, but certainly you and others indicate everyone is irritated waiting for students to do run up, in the areas usually used for rum up, and mentioning a minute out on the runway, seems to show that students in the US are being taught this way too.

So blaming the students seems to be pretty misguided. I guess you guys didn’t take any guff from your CFI’s now did you. No sir, you told them right out “Even though you’re telling me to do it, I refuse, enough of that noise, we’re doing all this stuff my way while still on the ramp, so I can just taxi out and take off”.

Folks that want to complain about ought to complain to the ones responsible for it. The clubs, instructors, etc. I don’t know either the why of it, but the checklists are required for us, and in a lot of flying clubs, and CFI’s are telling us to follow it and where. And most of the time the pre takeoff is done on the runway. I too think some of the items are a little dumb to include their, such as flight briefing (in fact we don’t, we already have) but one requirement is the mantra about emergency procedure just before takeoff. “If after takeoff nose down for 70 kias land straight ahead” someone in the club, not a student, recently had a failure and specially noted particularly that repeating that just before takeoff as thought here helped he thought.

oh well. I can ask, I know my CFI is a respected pilot, and had many years, and I believe he is aware of and tries to make sure we aren’t holding others up, but he decides where and when we do it.
 
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It's a team effort. Talk to your instructor about how to make your pre-takeoff checks more efficient of runway time while maintaining good safety practice. At a lazy airport, it matters less, but at a busy airport dallying at the end of the runway will get you the stinkeye from other pilots and/or ATC. At a busy GA airport like KGAI, your window for departure can be really short, and there is often a Conga line of departures, so you better be ready when an opening comes between arrivals.
 
First, got to say I really appreciate threads like these. Great for a new guy.

Been thinking what I would do. 1st, communicate. Call out "XYZ plane still on run way". 2 - most runways that you need to taxi back have a side area at the ends for turn around. I'm thinking I would scoot off the runway into that area until I can confirm - by seeing - the other plane fly past and I won't have the opportunity to fly up into him, or I see the other plane land. Either way I can wait in order to avoid problems.

My thinking is that you need to spend as little time on a runway as possible. Either entering, taking off, landing, or leaving - even on a runway I have to taxi back on.

Keep threads like this coming!
 
My two cents. Imagine the runway is hot lava. You want to spend as little time on the runway as possible. So in a situation where you need to back taxi, you do all checklists, etc., before entering the runway, so all you have to do once you get to the end is go. Once I cross the hold short and enter the runway environment, the checklist safely tucked away.
 
student pilot, no electrical, conventional gear, soloed. After doing my takeoff/run up checklist my CFI wants my eyes outside the aircraft. Our airport has a run up area near each end of the runway so I have not had to do a back taxi yet. It is however easy enough for me to sit in front of my computer and insure you that if I had called for take off on 27 and read 27 on my compass as I taxied to the down wind end of the runway I would turn around and go back to the taxi area ASAP. Also mentioned was the fuel shut off switch. My thinking is that also needs to be on a pre-crash checklist where it probably wouldn't seem so out of place.
 
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In your scenario they guy on short final may very likely not even see you sitting there. Most planes are white. Your are sitting right on top of or just behind WHITE numbers and not moving. I 3rd or 4th or 5th the advice to start talking immediately, turn and get off if needed.

Immediately start calling off the landing traffic while you start turning. In all but emergency cases, it should be 100x easier for them to abort the landing than you getting out of the way since you were stopped. But this guy might still be listening to the last radar services frequency or nordo or maybe just has his volume turned down because he was just listening to AWOS. Or you might have your radio on the wrong frequency or your volume turned down from previously talking to a passenger. All very, very likely scenarios. So even though you communicated you have to go with him not hearing you (or you not hearing him!)

So start turning so you can see him and get off the runway. But also because the motion might catch the final guy's attention and get him to break off. And try minimize rolling ahead - not at all if possible. Just playing the odds, most pilots don't hit the numbers they usually land past them enough that they probably wouldn't hit you.

And if the guy is anywhere other than a longer final or really really slow do not rush a takeoff. What if your mixture is still out for taxi and you kill the engine. Now you are 200ft farther down, right where he is likely to land. What if they are having an issue and need to land NOW (many possibilities here). You being seen moving off to the left or right will help them a ton. Now if they don't have an emergency and see you, what's the worse that can happen? You have just exited the runway while they have initiated a go around. If they have troubles on the go around they can still land because you gave them the runway back or didn't take any more. And if it all works out your biggest concern is how much of an arsehole the other guy is about it after he shuts down.

Most of the other posts challenge how you got into this situation. They are right. But you could still find yourself in this very situation and its not so unlikely out on the frontier airports. You need to control as much of it as you possibly can. Talking. Egressing. Removing variables instead of adding more.
 
Checklists used to be sane until the mid-70s, along with POHs. Then endless lawsuits forced the manufacturers to include everything that could possibly go wrong just so they could say the pilot was warned.

We had a Citabria built around that time. It took Bellanca a little longer to catch up. The entire POH was an 8.5" x 11" piece of card stock, folded in half to form four 5.5" x 8.5" pages. It included the checklist which, IIRC, took about four column inches.

We used to do all the runup and checks off the runway, leaving only the five T's to do immediately before rolling on takeoff. Time,Turn (heading indicator agreeing with runway heading), trim (confirm T/O position), transponder (switch to Alt), and Talk (Broadcast intentions). The whole thing took maybe ten seconds, and some could be done in the backtrack.
 
LongRoadBob said:
well, again all great advice. And I get that some think one shouldn’t least time possible on the runway. Makes sense to me. Least amount of time.

And I don’t know if different in the US, but certainly you and others indicate everyone is irritated waiting for students to do run up, in the areas usually used for rum up, and mentioning a minute out on the runway, seems to show that students in the US are being taught this way too.

So blaming the students seems to be pretty misguided. I guess you guys didn’t take any guff from your CFI’s now did you. No sir, you told them right out “Even though you’re telling me to do it, I refuse, enough of that noise, we’re doing all this stuff my way while still on the ramp, so I can just taxi out and take off”.

Folks that want to complain about ought to complain to the ones responsible for it. The clubs, instructors, etc. I don’t know either the why of it, but the checklists are required for us, and in a lot of flying clubs, and CFI’s are telling us to follow it and where. And most of the time the pre takeoff is done on the runway. I too think some of the items are a little dumb to include their, such as flight briefing (in fact we don’t, we already have) but one requirement is the mantra about emergency procedure just before takeoff. “If after takeoff nose down for 70 kias land straight ahead” someone in the club, not a student, recently had a failure and specially noted particularly that repeating that just before takeoff as thought here helped he thought.

oh well. I can ask, I know my CFI is a respected pilot, and had many years, and I believe he is aware of and tries to make sure we aren’t holding others up, but he decides where and when we do it.
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CFIs can be wrong. Flight clubs can enact rules that are wrong.

If you see any checklist from a US school, and airplane owners, all checks are done prior to entering the runway. The only thing should be done entering the runway is a check for final traffic, very mixture rich, line up power up make sure all gauges are in the green. Check airspeed rotate. All only a mere few seconds on the runway compared to taking all the time you want during run up.
 
LongRoadBob said:
It sure how it is with others, but we have separate “run up” and also “pre takeoff” on our clubs checklist.
Pre-takeoff includes such things as last check of free yoke, mixture full rich, autopilot off, trim set to takeoff, transponder set to ALT, flaps up, passenger brief, emergency procedures (if on runway throttle to idle, brakes, if after takeoff nose down for 70 kias, la d straight ahead, etc. note time, check runway agrees with compass, etc.

This takes a minute or two.
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Passenger brief? On the _runway_? Really?

My passenger brief is completed well before getting to the runway. The only thing I say to the passengers while on the runway is “Here we go!”

Same thing for all the rest of your checklist. Those items should not be done on the runway, with the exception of verifying that the compass and runway numbers agree. Get these items done before entering the runway. The runway should be for taking off and landing, not the runup, passenger briefing, etc.
 
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I keep a checklist in the plane only to satisfy the regs.. I fly my simple little airplane regularly. I have developed routines over many years of repetition. I don't use a checklist. And, at this point, if I did, it'd probably screw things up. I know I'm not the only one out there who does the same.

I have found that it's generally a new pilot, or a student, who has himself all wrapped up in numbers, checklists, and bomber patterns. Sometimes they can be real PIA's. The runway is not for sitting on, or lolly gagging around on. There should be no discussion, or questions about the scenario presented here. Do your business somewhere other than on the runway. The runway is for take offs and landings only. Stop endangering my life with your foolishness.
 
Art Rose said:
I keep a checklist in the plane only to satisfy the regs.. I fly my simple little airplane regularly. I have developed routines over many years of repetition. I don't use a checklist. And, at this point, if I did, it'd probably screw things up. I know I'm not the only one out there who does the same.

I have found that it's generally a new pilot, or a student, who has himself all wrapped up in numbers, checklists, and bomber patterns. Sometimes they can be real PIA's. The runway is not for sitting on, or lolly gagging around on. There should be no discussion, or questions about the scenario presented here. Do your business somewhere other than on the runway. The runway is for take offs and landings only. Stop endangering my life with your foolishness.
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Again. Take it up with the instructors and clubs that teach this. Students don’t get to decide where and when the checklists will be done, they are being taught and have no standing to dictate these kinds of things.
So getting angry at students is kind of odd. Or even new pilots that have been taught to do a checklist on the runway, where the clubs policy is that, meaning when you rent the airplane you are bound by club rules, maybe it should be taken up there?

Also, the scenario I mention could also happen if one does all checklists before entering, basically was the scenario that one is ready for takeoff but realizes a plane is coming in also. Seems the best is to communicate, possibly move to the side of the runway, but not attempt takeoff and let the incoming plane land.
 
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Never ever land over the top of another aircraft unless your deadsticking it in. Once you lose that aircraft under the nose you have no idea if he has commenced his takeoff roll and a disaster is about to happen. A old fighter pilot axiom applies here. Lose sight lose life!
 
Oh Boy , Check Lists …......
My CFI wants me to write up my own check list for my 172 . I just bought this aircraft and it came with 3 different check lists . The POH , two laminated different lists and one from his 150 Trainer I started in are supposed to merge into one nice, concise, neat laminated catch all, easy flow list.
Perhaps this needs a new thread.
The POH is from 1959 , The panel is absent any steam gauges, a spot for a I pad is for the Attitude and heading indicator. not on panel . Been flying the past 5 hours with out it as it is for a I pad mini 3. Has Horton STOL wings so the stall speeds are all different . Been fun so far. New I pad mount be here on the 30th .
Have Taxied back on runway for another take off , have done running mag checks on taxi back so when we turn around its off we go !
 
I passenger brief before engine start. After that, it's likely too late. My checklist also tells me to check the passenger belts secure, etc... before start.
 
JD318 said:
Please tell me you say it in a "Super Mario Brothers" voice! :)
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What’s a Super Mario Brother’s voice? Video game something or other, right?

Sorry, no special voice.


And back to the OP’s topic. At uncontrolled fields, I almost always do a 360° turn prior to entering the runway to check all directions for landing traffic. Assuming no traffic, I announce, take the runway, and immediately takeoff. No futzing around on the runway. At controlled fields, I skip the 360° turn, but I still take a look on final just to make sure before taking the runway. Again, once on the runway, immediate takeoff. Maybe a conversation with his CFI and the club is in order. Two thoughts:

1. Maybe the CFI or student is misinterpreting the club rules about where to do all of this final checklist stuff, passenger briefing, etc. A conversation might be all that’s required to clear it up.

2. Or maybe the club could benefit from someone, yes, even a student, raising the saftety issues of spending all this extra time on the runway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
LongRoadBob said:
Again. Take it up with the instructors and clubs that teach this. Students don’t get to decide where and when the checklists will be done, they are being taught and have no standing to dictate these kinds of things.
So getting angry at students is kind of odd. Or even new pilots that have been taught to do a checklist on the runway, where the clubs policy is that, meaning when you rent the airplane you are bound by club rules, maybe it should be taken up there?

Also, the scenario I mention could also happen if one does all checklists before entering, basically was the scenario that one is ready for takeoff but realizes a plane is coming in also. Seems the best is to communicate, possibly move to the side of the runway, but not attempt takeoff and let the incoming plane land.
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Several things here.

Why can’t a student raise the safety issues of this policy? You’re paying these folks for a service. It’s not the military. Raise the issue and point out the safety issues.

Yes, I suppose the issue could happen even without all the time wasting on the runway, but my question would be why the plane entered the runway without carefully checking to make sure it was safe? A 360° turn prior to taking the runway to check for traffic isn’t hard to do. If you don’t know there isn’t traffic on final, you shouldn’t be on the runway.

Once on the runway, takeoff. Don’t dwaddle.



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