Old Charges/Never Arrested or Convicted: Should I start Flight School?

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Yammins

Filing Flight Plan
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Jan 10, 2022
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Chimichanga
Hi all,

I have browsed through the web regarding this question as it worries me. Although there are many threads about this, I have not found any similar to my situation. I wish to start flight training later this year, so I want to get all my ducks in a row before I spend all that time and money.

I have a squeaky clean driving record, no speeding ever, no accidents, and no tickets. However, way back when I was 18 (about 8 years ago now), I was charged (and never arrested) with misdemeanor possession of a controlled substance. The case was dismissed as a nolle prosequi, hence this does not count as a conviction.

Form 8500-8 appears concerned regarding convictions in general as well as substance-related driving charges, none of which appear to apply to me when the language of the form is considered explicit. The only medical items that pertain are minor allergies to pollen and near-sightedness corrected with glasses.

I am making a big change in my life from a career as a physician to a pilot, so I want to really be sure I won't get bitten for this down the line at either a regional or major airline.

Thanks.
 
Clip4 said:
Doesn’t appear you will any issues with the medical.
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Clip 4 is somewhat incorrect. The question on the medical is about ARRESTS, and administrative actions. Get with an attorney and figure out definitively if that was a administrative action in your state. Each state is different. You will have to report if this is an admin action in your locale.

Note that expungement only applies to the organization producing the record. The feds never expunge a thing. They will find it and then you have a legal problem as well.

Be careful about going there. You MIGHT be okay. If you got a court date, before the charges were dismissed, this might be murky. The FAA issue, is, there is a PUBLIC record of drug behavior. Consult a local attorney!
 
bbchien said:
Clip 4 is somewhat incorrect. The question on the medical is about ARRESTS, and administrative actions. Get with an attorney and figure out definitively if that was a administrative action in your state. Each state is different. You will have to report if this is an admin action in your locale.

Note that expungement only applies to the organization producing the record. The feds never expunge a thing. They will find it and then you have a legal problem as well.

Be careful about going there. You MIGHT be okay. If you got a court date, before the charges were dismissed, this might be murky. The FAA issue, is, there is a PUBLIC record of drug behavior. Consult a local attorney!
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Hello! Thanks for the reply. I want to add that I was never arrested. Only charged and then dismissed. Would this still be that bad?
 
The charge IS the arrest. Contrary to what people "know" from watching cop shows, every criminal charge is not proceeded by being handcuffed and having the Miranda rights read to you.

There are two criminal questions. 18w specifically asks about convictions, but that's to catch non-drug/alcohol related stuff. 18v as Dr. B. points out asks for more cases when it refers to drug/alcohol.

The question is did you have to do anything to get that dismissal? Those likely fit in the administrative action case.
 
flyingron said:
The charge IS the arrest. Contrary to what people "know" from watching cop shows, every criminal charge is not proceeded by being handcuffed and having the Miranda rights read to you.

There are two criminal questions. 18w specifically asks about convictions, but that's to catch non-drug/alcohol related stuff. 18v as Dr. B. points out asks for more cases when it refers to drug/alcohol.

The question is did you have to do anything to get that dismissal? Those likely fit in the administrative action case.
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Nope, they were dismissed in court, only thing I needed was to get a drug test after ward.
 
Yammins said:
Hi all,

I have browsed through the web regarding this question as it worries me. Although there are many threads about this, I have not found any similar to my situation. I wish to start flight training later this year, so I want to get all my ducks in a row before I spend all that time and money.

I have a squeaky clean driving record, no speeding ever, no accidents, and no tickets. However, way back when I was 18 (about 8 years ago now), I was charged (and never arrested) with misdemeanor possession of a controlled substance. The case was dismissed as a nolle prosequi, hence this does not count as a conviction.

Form 8500-8 appears concerned regarding convictions in general as well as substance-related driving charges, none of which appear to apply to me when the language of the form is considered explicit. The only medical items that pertain are minor allergies to pollen and near-sightedness corrected with glasses.

I am making a big change in my life from a career as a physician to a pilot, so I want to really be sure I won't get bitten for this down the line at either a regional or major airline.

Thanks.
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Can you check your local court records to see if you are mentioned? The docket will likely give you a lot of information that you didn't know, even as a defendent.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Can you check your local court records to see if you are mentioned? The docket will likely give you a lot of information that you didn't know, even as a defendent.
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Do you mean the public court records lookup? Nothing is shown if that's what you mean. I recently got a job as a teacher and did a state and federal background check with fingerprints, came up squeaky clean. I even have the documents from my court records and the results of this recent background check.
 
Yammins said:
Nope, they were dismissed in court, only thing I needed was to get a drug test after ward.
Click to expand...

Sounds like there is a record somewhere. @midlifeflyer might have insight. Otherwise, Dr Chien’s post is spot on.

This isn’t a guessing game, it’s research time.
 
bbchien said:
Clip 4 is somewhat incorrect. The question on the medical is about ARRESTS, and administrative actions. Get with an attorney and figure out definitively if that was a administrative action in your state. Each state is different. You will have to report if this is an admin action in your locale.

Note that expungement only applies to the organization producing the record. The feds never expunge a thing. They will find it and then you have a legal problem as well.

Be careful about going there. You MIGHT be okay. If you got a court date, before the charges were dismissed, this might be murky. The FAA issue, is, there is a PUBLIC record of drug behavior. Consult a local attorney!
Click to expand...

I am going to agree and disagree with your statement and change my original post because I keep forgetting the FAA added arrest to the form.

A dismissal of a court case is not an administrative action, but since the form requires Arrests to be reported he must report the drug case. Being charged is an arrest. He was summoned to court instead of being hauled to jail and the charge will likely appear on his criminal history.
 
Clip4 said:
I am going to agree and disagree with your statement and change my original post because I keep forgetting the FAA added arrest to the form.

A dismissal of a court case is not an administrative action, but since the form requires Arrests to be reported he must report the drug case. Being charged is an arrest. He was summoned to court instead of being hauled to jail and the charge will likely appear on his criminal history.
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Alright.

Given the general consensus here, I will contact an attorney to see where to go from here. I am worried about the prospects of a career as a pilot now...
 
Yammins said:
Hello! Thanks for the reply. I want to add that I was never arrested. Only charged and then dismissed. Would this still be that bad?
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i don't understand how someone can be charged with a criminal offense without being arrested. strongly suggest you consult an atty with a background in or concentrating in aviation matters.
 
rk911 said:
i don't understand how someone can be charged with a criminal offense without being arrested. strongly suggest you consult an atty with a background in or concentrating in aviation matters.
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Yeah, this is why I am trying to find an answer for my particular situation. Long story short, I was hospitalized and the police said they would not arrest me, but they took the substance from me which was processed by the state lab, which detected said substance, and then the state issued charges to me.

But I agree, I will consult with an attorney.
 
Can someone post the current language of 18v? Isn't it limited to drug/alcohol charges while driving and rehab programs?
 
bflynn said:
Can someone post the current language of 18v? Isn't it limited to drug/alcohol charges while driving and rehab programs?
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upload_2022-1-10_13-13-17.png
 
So, 1) convictions involving driving, 2) conviction or admin action which results in a) losing your license or b) attending education/rehab.

In either one we're talking about motor vehicles actions, right?

OP, did your arrest involved a car or anything going on with your license? If not, then 18w doesn't apply because there was no conviction and 18v doesn't apply because there was no car or action on your driver's license.
 
bflynn said:
So, 1) convictions involving driving, 2) conviction or admin action which results in a) losing your license or b) attending education/rehab.

In either one we're talking about motor vehicles actions, right?

OP, did your arrest involved a car or anything going on with your license? If not, then 18w doesn't apply because there was no conviction and 18v doesn't apply because there was no car or action on your driver's license.
Click to expand...

Nothing involved a car and my driver's license is squeaky clean.

I've contacted an attorney, so we'll see!
 
rk911 said:
i don't understand how someone can be charged with a criminal offense without being arrested. strongly suggest you consult an atty with a background in or concentrating in aviation matters.
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Ever get a traffic ticket?
 
Yammins said:
Nothing involved a car and my driver's license is squeaky clean.

I've contacted an attorney, so we'll see!
Click to expand...

This situation sounds like something where the AOPA legal services people can help. If you're an AOPA member, and don't already have the upgraded membership with access to the legal services folks, you might consider doing that before you do anything formal with MedXpress. Best to have advice from an aviation attorney before you submit the application.
 
TCABM said:
Sounds like there is a record somewhere. @midlifeflyer might have insight. Otherwise, Dr Chien’s post is spot on.

This isn’t a guessing game, it’s research time.
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Bruce's post is spot on. The record should be reviewed by a lawyer, preferably one who understands both state criminal procedure and the FAA reporting requirements. 40 years in the legal biz, the first 18 including criminal defense, taught me that most defendants in criminal cases don't really know what technically took place. For example, it's no surprise that in every NTSB case I've read on expungement, there wasn't actually an expungement.
 
bflynn said:
So, 1) convictions involving driving, 2) conviction or admin action which results in a) losing your license or b) attending education/rehab.

In either one we're talking about motor vehicles actions, right?

OP, did your arrest involved a car or anything going on with your license? If not, then 18w doesn't apply because there was no conviction and 18v doesn't apply because there was no car or action on your driver's license.
Click to expand...
I believe the current form does include arrests, but again, only for offenses involving motor vehicles. For other crimes it only asks about convictions. So @bflynn's question is on point.
 
Dana said:
A traffic ticket isn't a criminal offense; it's a "violation".
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In Texas most traffic offenses are Class C misdemeanors. And you can indeed be arrested, but usually aren't, merely for committing a traffic offense.
 
rk911 said:
i don't understand how someone can be charged with a criminal offense without being arrested. strongly suggest you consult an atty with a background in or concentrating in aviation matters.
Click to expand...

A misdemeanor is a criminal offense. When the offense is not viewed by the charging officer, most states do not allow a physical arrest.
 
If you got fingerprinted when charged, the FBI has a copy.
 
bflynn said:
So, 1) convictions involving driving, 2) conviction or admin action which results in a) losing your license or b) attending education/rehab.

In either one we're talking about motor vehicles actions, right?

OP, did your arrest involved a car or anything going on with your license? If not, then 18w doesn't apply because there was no conviction and 18v doesn't apply because there was no car or action on your driver's license.
Click to expand...
Well, first a bit of what some might call semantics, but words are essential in this area. "Motor vehicle action" is a phrase with a specific definition for FAR 61.15 purposes. The term is not used anywhere in the medical application form, the MedXpress User Guide, or the AME guide.

The 61.15 reporting requirements and 18.v. on the medical application are not co-extensive. And 18v. does not require action on your driver's license.

Here's the text:

(1) arrested and/or convicted (which may include paying a fine, or forfeiting bond or collateral) of an offense involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) arrested, convicted and/or subject to an administrative action by a state or other jurisdiction for an offense for which your license was denied, suspended, cancelled, or revoked or which resulted in attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program.​

Here's the relevant language pulled out:
arrested, convicted and/or subject to an administrative action by a state or other jurisdiction for an offense ... which resulted in attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program.​

So no, we are not talking exclusively about "motor vehicle actions." And yes, for example, the common underage drinking or drug offense which is ultimately dismissed after completing of a short program on the dangers of drug use is probably reportable.

I have no idea whether this applies to the OP or not.
​
 
Last edited:
The new form

aHQJLB.jpg


If you were sleepy driving home and police stop you have you do some tests. They claim you are under the influence of some drug. They arrest you go to jail take blood find no drugs, and drop the charges. Does the FAA require SI for drug abuse have to go to AA even though you were wrongfully arrested.
 
Lindberg said:
Posting on the internet advice from your attorney may not be advisable. Ymmv.
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Posting much of anything about a real case or investigation you are involved in personally is usually not advisable.
In some states the rules require attorneys to advise clients not to.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Posting much of anything about a real case or investigation you are involved in personally is usually not advisable.
In some states the rules require attorneys to advise clients not to.
Click to expand...
And yet this forum exists.;) The OP had posted advice directly from his atty. Appears deleted now.
 
Lindberg said:
And yet this forum exists.;) The OP had posted advice directly from his atty. Appears deleted now.
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The existence of a forum for medical and even for legal questions can be a great source of general information. Look at @kell490's question as an example (even though he posted an almost 14 year old form as "new" :) )
kell490 said:
The new form

aHQJLB.jpg


If you were sleepy driving home and police stop you have you do some tests. They claim you are under the influence of some drug. They arrest you go to jail take blood find no drugs, and drop the charges. Does the FAA require SI for drug abuse have to go to AA even though you were wrongfully arrested.
Click to expand...

Well, it's not a "wrongful" arrest but even if it were, I think an answer is that (1) it's still a "yes" and (2) it will still cause an inquiry and require documentation. But I have to defer to the medical experts here on what actually takes place in the process, but with proper documentation it should not result in an SI.
 
kell490 said:
The new form

aHQJLB.jpg


If you were sleepy driving home and police stop you have you do some tests. They claim you are under the influence of some drug. They arrest you go to jail take blood find no drugs, and drop the charges. Does the FAA require SI for drug abuse have to go to AA even though you were wrongfully arrested.
Click to expand...

that second part is ambiguously interesting
 
Seems like southern states Law enforcement over enforces pulled over for 1-2 mph over the limit maybe all those small counties make lot of money writing tickets.
 
kell490 said:
Seems like southern states Law enforcement over enforces pulled over for 1-2 mph over the limit maybe all those small counties make lot of money writing tickets.
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That's how it is in all of those towns along US 61 and US 485, goes from 55 to 40, they are waiting to collect and serve.
 
midcap said:
Not only that but St Tammany parish has recently been in hot water for arresting and charging people with DUIs when in fact they were stone cold sober.
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That's a relative improvement considering the fiasco with the old sheriff down there.
 
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