Old (1960s or older) 150 v-speeds question

[kimberlyanne546]

I am trying to get checked out in a 150 at my new flight school. Apparently, the CFI was not 100% happy with my landings, and we ran out of time (she had a student waiting for her and it was a really busy Saturday so we didn't get in that many landings), so she asked me to "extend" the check out (sigh).

This means I have to go back, again, and complete the check out tomorrow (weather permitting). I had to wait a whole week since this CFI doesn't work Sundays. Now, I most likely will be delayed ANOTHER week, making this a three week checkout! She is the only CFI there skinny enough / short enough to fly the 150 with me.

So here is my question:

On the 172 checkout, I used the POH to help me complete the checkout paperwork / quiz. It asked you all kinds of things like V-Speeds, takeoff distances, etc. All of these items can easily be found in the POH for this 1980 airplane.

I don't know the exact year of the cute little 150, but a student told me he thinks "old" due to the pull starter thing, the twistie power thing, and the flaps (you count "one one thousand" and look at a flap indicator to the left of the windshield while your right hand lowers the flaps - it does not "stop" at 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 degrees so you can "customize" the flap setting).....

But.....

The POH is NOTHING like the newer planes! No matter where I look, the v-speeds, calculations, etc. just aren't there or are very limited. I am not done filling out the quiz since I spent lots of time looking for the exact numbers and didn't get any results. At best, they are presented in mph (while I *think* the current airspeed indicator is in knots, though I could be wrong).... and they range at least 10mph rather than listing a specific number.

I was going to use the "Sure Check" pro checklist in the plane - but then I thought, where do THEY get their numbers if not from the POH?

I guess there are no "wrong" answers since the checkout paperwork is something they only pull out if / when you have an incident.

Here is a photo of the plane (don't you just wanna hug it???):

 

[steingar]

I owned one for years and I'm not at all certain I knew what any of the V speeds were except maneuvering and Vne. Didn't need the latter as the poor little thing couldn't approach it in a dive. All I can say is if you're actively looking at the airspeed indicator on final, you're doing something wrong.

 

[jaybee]

That is a 1974 150M

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=66516

here is 150M checklist

http://www.aerosport.nl/tools/faatest_c150.pdf

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I owned one for years and I'm not at all certain I knew what any of the V speeds were except maneuvering and Vne. Didn't need the latter as the poor little thing couldn't approach it in a dive. All I can say is if you're actively looking at the airspeed indicator on final, you're doing something wrong.

Thanks. The 150 is not as similar as I thought it would be to my 152 which I have 80+ hours in. In fact, shockingly, it is MUCH more responsive! It even has a better useful load (I think, gotta double check). I like the twist power (in the 152 and 172 you pull in and out, in the 150 you make tiny twists). However, we did "climbing turns" and as you can imagine with almost full fuel and both of us and my flight bag it took a heck of a lot longer to get up to 3200 than it did two weeks prior during our 180hp 172 checkout. And it took a lot more RPMs than I thought it would to stay at TPA. But it will be $80 / hour and only $40 if I split with another pilot at the school. And it continues my quest for "small" planes which I love. Low and slow, gotta love it.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

That is a 1974 150M

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=66516

here is 150M checklist

http://www.aerosport.nl/tools/faatest_c150.pdf

Thank you, there is a checklist in the plane, as I mentioned. What I wanted to know is where do they get exact numbers for these checklists if the numbers aren't even in the POH?

The other pilot (a student) argued it couldn't be from the 70's but I can ask the mechanics this weekend if / when I go. 1974 is not that old. My 152 was a 1978 and both my 172s have been 1980.

 

[eMKay]

Is the cabin a lot different than a 152? I read somewhere that a 152 was 4" wider than a 150

 

[steingar]

Thanks. The 150 is not as similar as I thought it would be to my 152 which I have 80+ hours in. In fact, shockingly, it is MUCH more responsive! It even has a better useful load (I think, gotta double check). I like the twist power (in the 152 and 172 you pull in and out, in the 150 you make tiny twists). However, we did "climbing turns" and as you can imagine with almost full fuel and both of us and my flight bag it took a heck of a lot longer to get up to 3200 than it did two weeks prior during our 180hp 172 checkout. And it took a lot more RPMs than I thought it would to stay at TPA. But it will be $80 / hour and only $40 if I split with another pilot at the school. And it continues my quest for "small" planes which I love. Low and slow, gotta love it.

I still miss my little 150, as ratty as it was. But yeah, you must be patient, especially on a hot day. I flew mine mostly by feel. I wouldn't say I was the best stick there ever was, but that little airplane traveled far wider and farther than many of its brethren. First time I took it to Oshkosh it has very, very little company on the field.

Have fun. The rates sound really reasonable. I doubt you'll hear any bad words about the 150. And it is one of those few areas where being diminutive it advantageous.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Is the cabin a lot different than a 152? I read somewhere that a 152 was 4" wider than a 150

Well it did seem a LOT smaller. And heck I didn't think anything could be smaller than a 152!!!

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Or maybe I just got bigger.

 

[Pilawt]

Is the cabin a lot different than a 152? I read somewhere that a 152 was 4" wider than a 150

Nope -- 152 cabin is the same as 150 from 1967 (150G) onward.

150G differs from earlier models in that the cabin doors were bowed outward slightly, accounting for what Cessna claimed was an extra three inches at the elbow.

 

[ronnieh]

Actual that is a pretty late 150. I think it was around 1977 or perhaps 1978 when the 152 came out and replaced the 150.

 

[jaybee]

Thank you, there is a checklist in the plane, as I mentioned. What I wanted to know is where do they get exact numbers for these checklists if the numbers aren't even in the POH?

The other pilot (a student) argued it couldn't be from the 70's but I can ask the mechanics this weekend if / when I go. 1974 is not that old. My 152 was a 1978 and both my 172s have been 1980.

Umm... the linked checklist had the Vspeeds listed on it.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I still miss my little 150, as ratty as it was. But yeah, you must be patient, especially on a hot day. I flew mine mostly by feel. I wouldn't say I was the best stick there ever was, but that little airplane traveled far wider and farther than many of its brethren. First time I took it to Oshkosh it has very, very little company on the field.

Have fun. The rates sound really reasonable. I doubt you'll hear any bad words about the 150. And it is one of those few areas where being diminutive it advantageous.

I was gonna start another thread about it, but I have "big" plans for this tiny 150. It looks like my dream flight (actually using an airplane to get somewhere I was gonna drive 5+ hours to get to) may come true if I can talk to the owner next week about minimum hours per day. Turns out less than 5 total pilots fly this thing regularly (all others are too tall or too wide).... and several people think I can work out a deal where I don't have to pay the 3 hours flight time per day. I plan to fly 200nm down and then back again for a 4-day getaway. I can't imagine a more fun plane for a more reasonable price!

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Umm... the linked checklist had the Vspeeds listed on it.

Right, so does mine (the one in the plane that I posted about when I started this thread). My question was - where do they get the V-Speeds especially if what they say DISAGREES with the POH? I never went out to the plane to fill in my quiz since I knew I'd have more time to complete it this week. I wanted to use the POH but ran into a dead end, then had a passenger flight / Bay Tour in my rental 172 so I had to leave.

But thank you, I will print yours out and bring it with me, and compare it to the one they use. Also, as another poster said, he owned a 150 and didn't know / memorize the v-speeds. This is just a formality.

 

[Pilawt]

Actual that is a pretty late 150. I think it was around 1977 or perhaps 1978 when the 152 came out and replaced the 150.

1977 model year was the last for the 150; deliveries of the 152 (as a 1978 model) began in May 1977.

 

[steingar]

I was gonna start another thread about it, but I have "big" plans for this tiny 150. It looks like my dream flight (actually using an airplane to get somewhere I was gonna drive 5+ hours to get to) may come true if I can talk to the owner next week about minimum hours per day. Turns out less than 5 total pilots fly this thing regularly (all others are too tall or too wide).... and several people think I can work out a deal where I don't have to pay the 3 hours flight time per day. I plan to fly 200nm down and then back again for a 4-day getaway. I can't imagine a more fun plane for a more reasonable price!

Either that or buy one. They can still be had for far less than a new car. Get a partner to go in with and you have one of the most economical aircraft I can imagine.

 

[3 in the green]

Pull starter 150 means it was a 1969 or older. Key start started in 1970 I believe.

 

[jaybee]

Right, so does mine (the one in the plane that I posted about when I started this thread). My question was - where do they get the V-Speeds especially if what they say DISAGREES with the POH? I never went out to the plane to fill in my quiz since I knew I'd have more time to complete it this week. I wanted to use the POH but ran into a dead end, then had a passenger flight / Bay Tour in my rental 172 so I had to leave.

But thank you, I will print yours out and bring it with me, and compare it to the one they use. Also, as another poster said, he owned a 150 and didn't know / memorize the v-speeds. This is just a formality.

I had to dig out my 64 150D owners manual. I see where you are coming from.

Look under operating checklist.

Maximum performance take off -
....
(7) climb speed 52 MPH

This is Vx

Maximum performance climb
(1) airspeed - 72 MPH

This is Vy

Under normal climb they give 75 - 80 MPH to keep engine cool. Pilots discretion.

Under Airspeed limitations section you will find manevering speed = Va

Under operational data section you will find CAS stall speeds, Vso will be 0 bank plus 40 flap which then has to be converted to IAS

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Pull starter 150 means it was a 1969 or older. Key start started in 1970 I believe.

Right this is what the other pilot told me.

So why does the FAA say 1970's?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Pull starter 150 means it was a 1969 or older. Key start started in 1970 I believe.

Wait, let me explain:

I have a key starter (off / L / R / both / and start I think). In ADDITION I have a pull starter. I'll have to take a picture next time I'm in the plane.

 

[Pilawt]

I don't know the exact year of the cute little 150, but a student told me he thinks "old" due to the pull starter thing,

Pull starter 150 means it was a 1969 or older. Key start started in 1970 I believe.

Wait, let me explain:

I have a key starter (off / L / R / both / and start I think). In ADDITION I have a pull starter. I'll have to take a picture next time I'm in the plane.

Yes, "old" 150s had the pull starter thing, and it worked well. Then in 1969 (150J) they switched to a key-start switch down at the lower left corner of the panel. The clutch for the key-start system has been one of the biggest maintenance headaches for owners and operators of Cessna 150s. Thus many owners, apparently including the owner of N66516, yanked out the key-starter and retro-fitted the old-style, relatively trouble-free pull start system.

That would explain why this airplane has both a pull-handle and an ingition switch with a 'start' position on it -- but the key starter is disabled.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

To start the actual plane she did pull the pull start but I think I also turned the key to "start" at the same time if that makes sense. I wish she would have let me do it instead of helping. I hate it when CFIs do everything for you - I am soon gonna be alone in that plane as PIC for God's sake, let me practice!!!

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Yes, "old" 150s had the pull starter thing, and it worked well. Then in 1969 (150J) they switched to a key-start switch down at the lower left corner of the panel. The clutch for the key-start system has been one of the biggest maintenance headaches for owners and operators of Cessna 150s. Thus many owners, apparently including the owner of N66516, yanked out the key-starter and retro-fitted the old-style, relatively trouble-free pull start system.

That explains why I see both in the plane. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[3 in the green]

Yes, "old" 150s had the pull starter thing, and it worked well. Then in 1969 (150J) they switched to a key-start switch down at the lower left corner of the panel. The clutch for the key-start system has been one of the biggest maintenance headaches for owners and operators of Cessna 150s. Thus many owners, apparently including the owner of N66516, yanked out the key-starter and retro-fitted the old-style, relatively trouble-free pull start system.

Yes, that's it. 1969, and I recall many complaints about the key start mechanism.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I had to dig out my 64 150D owners manual. I see where you are coming from.

Look under operating checklist.

Maximum performance take off -
....
(7) climb speed 52 MPH

This is Vx

Maximum performance climb
(1) airspeed - 72 MPH

This is Vy

Under normal climb they give 75 - 80 MPH to keep engine cool. Pilots discretion.

Under Airspeed limitations section you will find manevering speed = Va

Under operational data section you will find CAS stall speeds, Vso will be 0 bank plus 40 flap which then has to be converted to IAS

Thank you for this. I believe the questions I was struggling to find answers to were above and beyond all of that. I'll have to make a copy of the quiz next time I'm there.

 

[Pilawt]

That is a 1974 150M

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=66516

It was built in calendar year 1974 (that's all the FAA registration database goes by), but it is of the 1975 model year. 1975 was the first model year for the taller vertical tail, which is clearly seen in Kimberly's photo.

 

[eMKay]

Nope -- 152 cabin is the same as 150 from 1967 (150G) onward.

150G differs from earlier models in that the cabin doors were bowed outward slightly, accounting for what Cessna claimed was an extra three inches at the elbow.

Maybe it's the 172 that's 4" wider than the 150/152 then. I have plenty of room in a 172

 

[somorris]

I fly our 150 on 200 nm trips (out and back) fairly regularly. Takes about 2.5 hours, more or less. That's about as far as I want to go without stopping for fuel. I believe the 150 is one of the best airplanes Cessna made. It is a little tight, but doesn't burn a lot of fuel.

 

[jaybee]

Thank you for this. I believe the questions I was struggling to find answers to were above and beyond all of that. I'll have to make a copy of the quiz next time I'm there.

Which ones ? not much more Vspeeds in a single engine

Vfe ? flap extend speed 100 MPH in before landing check list.

Might be a generic quiz, one size fits all check out quiz. I've run into that before. Asked me for Vmc on a 172....

Approach speed will be 1.3 times Vso 1.2 over the fence.

Vr is 50 MPH in Normal take off check list.

V1 not a jetliner, again just a 150. though not a bad idea to put into practice.

Vle again just a 150, fixed landing gear.

Vne ! better know that !

thats all the Vspeeds I can think of off the top of my head, been in helicopters too long to remember any more

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I fly our 150 on 200 nm trips (out and back) fairly regularly. Takes about 2.5 hours, more or less. That's about as far as I want to go without stopping for fuel. I believe the 150 is one of the best airplanes Cessna made. It is a little tight, but doesn't burn a lot of fuel.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to stop for fuel. I'm not that tiny and though my BF is slim, with us and the dog (if they let us but his Mom will probably drive the dog) and the luggage it would be hard to get more than 14 gallons in there and be legal. The flight school has W/B on the reservation. So I plan to go no more than 100nm and then re-fuel.

 

[nosehair]

I hate it when CFIs do everything for you - I am soon gonna be alone in that plane as PIC for God's sake, let me practice!!!

As you go along, getting checkouts and other training, now that you are a pilot, you may find that you will have to be more participatory, or aggressive, in what you accept from the instructor.
Jump in and tell those "Let me do it for you" instructors that you want to do it for yourself. Sometimes they're just trying to be nice, and forget that you need the hands-on practice.

 

[somorris]

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to stop for fuel. I'm not that tiny and though my BF is slim, with us and the dog (if they let us but his Mom will probably drive the dog) and the luggage it would be hard to get more than 14 gallons in there and be legal. The flight school has W/B on the reservation. So I plan to go no more than 100nm and then re-fuel.

Boy, that's not much. Bummer.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Boy, that's not much. Bummer.

Not really a bummer. Who wants to spend 2.5 hours in a tiny 150? Better to spend 1 hour and then stretch your legs / refuel / have lunch / get back in and fly the rest of the way. And if we take the 40-60 pound dog out of the equation and pack light, I won't be as worried about stopping so soon. That's 10 gallons more of fuel right there.

 

[John221us]

Not really a bummer. Who wants to spend 2.5 hours in a tiny 150? Better to spend 1 hour and then stretch your legs / refuel / have lunch / get back in and fly the rest of the way. And if we take the 40-60 pound dog out of the equation and pack light, I won't be as worried about stopping so soon. That's 10 gallons more of fuel right there.

That is a good size dog. Where are you going to put it?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

That is a good size dog. Where are you going to put it?

This is my Christmas tree, December 2011. My personal dog is the one on the right and is staying with a dog sitter (max 5 dogs at the rental villa and the BF's family's dogs get priority since they are paying for the getaway weekend). His is the bigger one on the left. Still a puppy, to me, but over 1 year old now. Huge for a Springer.

To answer your question, however: I don't know. I'm glad the BF's family offered to take the dog in a car since we don't know how he would handle a plane. The BF spoils him and often invites him onto his lap when he is a passenger in my Honda so God knows the dog will try to jump into the front of the plane and he is a STRONG dog.

 

[jesse]

To start the actual plane she did pull the pull start but I think I also turned the key to "start" at the same time if that makes sense. I wish she would have let me do it instead of helping. I hate it when CFIs do everything for you - I am soon gonna be alone in that plane as PIC for God's sake, let me practice!!!

The toughest thing about instructing sometimes is to keep your damn hands to yourself and shut your mouth to let someone figure something out.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

The toughest thing about instructing sometimes is to keep your damn hands to yourself and shut your mouth to let someone figure something out.

Amen. For all the **** talking I did about my CFI, he sure as hell knew when to speak up and when to shut up. I finally said to this woman:

"I don't like people shouting at me on short final when I'm trying to land!"

and after her FIGHTING against my own flare I said:

"I don't feel SAFE aiming for the lights (unusable part of the runway, before the numbers). We've come up short too many times and had to add power at the last second. Can you just let me aim further down the runway please? We have over 3000 feet here."

and another time she insisted I NOT stop on the ramp / taxiway. She wasn't looking when I was and I could have sworn a guy was taxiing head on. When she argued, I said:

"You knew he was already in the run up area, I didn't. When he started his 360 degree turn, the part I saw was him coming forward - towards me - on his way to the hold short line. There is NOTHING wrong with me pausing our plane for one second to be SURE he isn't coming straight for us."


Argh.

 

[denverpilot]

Looks like a great little honest airplane and at least superficially, well taken care of. Hard to beat a 150 for cost, too. I like the orange paint job.

 

[Anthony]

I'd let someone else take the dog. There is not much room and you are already challenged with weight. Plus, if dogs get nervous in tight spaces, bad things can happen.

The CFI sounds a bit strange. You may have a "girl/girl" thing going on there. Just get the checkride over and move on. What's the useful load? I did my checkride in a 152 with a 250 lb DE, and me at 170 lbs.

 

[AdamZ]

Wait, let me explain:

I have a key starter (off / L / R / both / and start I think). In ADDITION I have a pull starter. I'll have to take a picture next time I'm in the plane.

Kim, two things, what your referring to as off/L/R/Both is not a key starter, its is the selector switch for the mags. I'm really really really hoping that your CFI for your PP told you that. Some key selectors for the mags will also be a starter switch but many won't. If turning that key does not start the plane they are mags only.

Second, that " twisty power thing" is the throttle. Some aircraft have throttle quadrants like the newer Cherokees and Tigers. The quadrant. Quadrants have levers for throttle, prop ( if its a constant speed aircraft) and mixture. They generally look like the photo below.

Other planes have plunger type engine controls such as older Cherokees, Most Mooneys, Cessnas etc. The ones that twist are called vernier knobs. You don't actually twist them to increase power and mixture or prop ( although you can) you pull them in and out like a plunger type control. the reason they turn is so that that pilot can fine tune the throttle mixture and prop in much smaller increments.

I only tell you because calling things by their proper names inspires a bit more confidence in one as a pilot than calling it a "twisty power thing" Other pilots will take you more seriously as well.

I'm certainly no A&P but its important to know basically what does what. I actually recall a pp student who thought the Alternator belt turned the propeller.

As for the landing part, look ALL of us have crappy landing days. I'm sure you'll do fine next go around.

The toughest thing about instructing sometimes is to keep your damn hands to yourself and shut your mouth to let someone figure something out.

Heck yea! Well put!