Oil Change by A&P vs Owner

Mooney Fan

Mooney Fan

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Mooney Fan
My Lycoming 0320-E2A has 1775-SMOH in 1972. Burns 12 qts/hr, good compressions and doesn't make metal. I am fully capable to change the oil. But I'm wrapped around the axle by having my A&P do the oil change all the time in that I want his signature in my logs from a credibility perspective. My mechanic has been doing the changes for all my ~35 hour oil changes over the 225 tach hours I have put on the plane since purchase 4/2018. I also have Blackstone reports for each change which confirms no issues.

Just how important was it to you when looking (pre-buy) over log books from planes you purchased? For me, when the log states, 'Filter cut open, and no metal found' I would rather see an A&P signature backing that up. Far more credible than me stating such. Especially for a high time engine

Stick with A&P?

Thanks
 
If its burning 12qts an hour, I would just keep dumping it in and not bother with a change. ;)

In all honesty I would not find a significant difference between an A&P doing that and the owner. In fact I would prefer to see the owner being hands-on and investigating things. A thorough owner is going to notice things that an A&P might not catch looking at it 3 or 4 times a year.
 
Mooney Fan said:
Just how important was it to you when looking (pre-buy) over log books...
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FWIW: In my opinion, from a mx standpoint/pre-buy, it would be a non-issue who performs the oil change just so long as it's documented. On the "credibility" comment, I wouldn't give any less to an owner performing mx than a AP considering the owner as a lot more "credible" responsibilities for the aircraft than just the mx.
 
For many years I have done more than that for oil changes, I do 50 hour inspections.
 
Mooney Fan said:
Just how important was it to you when looking (pre-buy) over log books from planes you purchased? For me, when the log states, 'Filter cut open, and no metal found' I would rather see an A&P signature backing that up. Far more credible than me stating such. Especially for a high time engine
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People are going to price a high time engine as a runout or near runout anyway, who's name is in the book at that point isn't all that important IMHO.
 
I couldn't give a"bleep" who does the oil change. Was the filter cut? Does the non-mechanic know if there's an oil screen and was that removed cleaned and checked as well. I can tell immediately by the safety wire in the engine compartment if Gomer Pyle has been working on the engine;)
 
I think handwritten log entries are janky, be it from owner OR mechanic.

Make yourself a small typed label, sign it with your pilot number, who would even notice the difference?

You can give yourself a generic-sounding shop name as a header since it has no bearing on the log entry. Be "Hangar 28 Maintenance" or something nondescript, it will hypnotize readers into moving to the next entry.
 
I change my own oil with my A&P supervising the final steps. We cut the oil filter and inspect. I like having an A&P's observations and logbook entry. I always find something, usually small to fix; and he's there to fix and sign-off. On occasion he's found small issues with his level of experience, I would have missed. The peace of mind is worth it and one day when i sell the plane, the new buyer will see it was A&P serviced.

My lower cowl requires 2 people for installation, and an added boost for A&P help.
 
I'd rather see the look on the owner's face after he's cut the filter and examined all the carbon and determined that none of it is magnetic.....and none of the metal has part numbers....and my hands are clean, warm, dry and in my pockets. ;)
 
I don't care who does the oil change, as long it is done correctly.

I've seen operators ignore an oil leak, and not correct it.

complete the whole process.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I'd rather see the look on the owner's face after he's cut the filter and examined all the carbon and determined that none of it is magnetic.....and none of the metal has part numbers....and my hands are clean, warm, dry and in my pockets. ;)
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My first engine failure happened that way....the part numbers didn’t show up until the failure.

As to the OP’s specific question, if I were a buyer looking at a maintenance log entry by the owner stating that the filter was cut open and no metal found, I’d ask about the process of determining no metal was found. I’ve seen a lot of people parrot what somebody else says with no clue what it really means.
 
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I do all my own oil changes. The last plane I sold, as I got an offer, was nearing time to do an oil change. The guy was doing his own "pre-buy", and I told him I was changing the oil on Saturday, and he could do his pre-buy at the same time. I changed the oil and cut the filter in front of him, so he could see for himself.
 
If I was your buyer, I'd be in the "Do them yourself, have the Blackstone reports available" camp.

Naysayer buyer is gonna get wrapped around the 47 years SMOH issue before the oil change issue.
 
My ‘58 Evinrude 10 hp outboard uses a 24:1 fuel:eek:il ratio. I laugh every time I put 6 gallons in the fuel tank as I dump an entire quart in with it. Good thing for the environment that I don’t use my little boat very often.

Edit: not sure why the smiley got inserted above, but it’s funny so I left it (totally not on purpose).
 
Go with whatever makes you most comfortable. I enjoy performing as much maintenance as I can , but I'm also not looking to maximize my resale value...
 
catmandu said:
If I was your buyer, I'd be in the "Do them yourself, have the Blackstone reports available" camp.

Naysayer buyer is gonna get wrapped around the 47 years SMOH issue before the oil change issue.
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Thanks. I realize the issues relative to time since major. There are buyers for planes like mine. I just want to make it stand above the rest in same condition. That’s if I sell in the next 200 hours or so. I may just do an overhaul and keep her.
 
Mooney Fan said:
Thanks. I realize the issues relative to time since major. There are buyers for planes like mine. I just want to make it stand above the rest in same condition. That’s if I sell in the next 200 hours or so. I may just do an overhaul and keep her.
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If I'm looking, I don't care who did the oil change, but I do care that there are oil changes on a regular, periodic basis as recommended by the engine manufacturer.
 
A owner that changes his own oil has at least some mechanical inclination. Less likely he is the ham fisted type that see nothing wrong with jamming a cold engine to full throttle or such. One of the sweetest running, best maintained airplanes I ever encountered was owned by a diesel mechanic that always looked like he just crawled out from under an old Mack
 
Who cares? You don't want to deal with "that" guy anyway.
 
Mooney Fan said:
Just how important was it to you when looking (pre-buy) over log books from planes you purchased? For me, when the log states, 'Filter cut open, and no metal found' I would rather see an A&P signature backing that up. Far more credible than me stating such. Especially for a high time engine
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If I'm buying a plane with a high time engine, I'm doing an overhaul on day one so I couldn't really care less who did the oil changes at that point.

Engine time aside, I would put much more value on what else I find in the logs in terms of what was found and how it was addressed than who did the oil changes. A very solid argument could be made that a skilled and talented owner (whose butt is in the seat on every flight) is going to be be much more patient and attentive while the cowling is off than an A&P who is on the clock and is just trying to get the job done so other more profitable work can be rolled into the shop as quickly as possible. That's not to say that there aren't owners out there who should never ever put a wrench to anything nor is it to say that there aren't A&P's out there who treat every plane they touch as if it were an irreplaceable award winning antique that has been in their family for generations. Rather its just to say that a signature in a logbook on its own gives zero indication about the amount of talent and care that went into performing the oil change.
 
Mooney Fan said:
My Lycoming 0320-E2A has 1775-SMOH in 1972. Burns 12 qts/hr, good compressions and doesn't make metal. I am fully capable to change the oil. But I'm wrapped around the axle by having my A&P do the oil change all the time in that I want his signature in my logs from a credibility perspective. My mechanic has been doing the changes for all my ~35 hour oil changes over the 225 tach hours I have put on the plane since purchase 4/2018. I also have Blackstone reports for each change which confirms no issues.

Just how important was it to you when looking (pre-buy) over log books from planes you purchased? For me, when the log states, 'Filter cut open, and no metal found' I would rather see an A&P signature backing that up. Far more credible than me stating such. Especially for a high time engine

Stick with A&P?

Thanks
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If the owner couldn’t change the oil, I worry how he was able to manage the systems.
 
James331 said:
If the owner couldn’t change the oil, I worry how he was able to manage the systems.
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I CAN change the oil. I just prefer not to at this stage of life. I have better ways to spend my time.
 
JOhnH said:
I CAN change the oil. I just prefer not to at this stage of life. I have better ways to spend my time.
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For what lots of shops charge, a hour of my time isn’t worth that much yet
 
James331 said:
For what lots of shops charge, a hour of my time isn’t worth that much yet
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I did a ton of work on my plane myself this annual. It took me twice as long as it would have taken someone that does it every day. Even with that, and what I had to pay for a certified mechanic to supervise the work, I still calculate that I “paid” myself $62.50 an hour. I’ll do that all day long for a job where I control the hours, set the pace, and become more familiar with my aircraft.
Now, if I had to drive an hour to get to my plane to tinker on it for a few hours, the math wouldn’t work out and I’d just pay someone else to do it.
 
If a potential buyer devalues my plane on the basis of owner-performed oil changes, "See ya!"
 
Wouldn't make a bit of difference to me if you did it or an A&P. I wouldn't even consider it in the purchase process and certainly wouldn't pay a premium for it. I just want to know the oil was changed regularly.

Personally I don't pay anyone to do anything I can do myself but I can also squeeze a dollar and make a buck fifty sometime a buck seventy five.
 
Something else to consider. I am not an A&P but I used to fly for a company that had its own MX shop. When I wasn't flying, I was wrenching in the shop under the supervision of the A&P's. If an oil change came in, I did it so the A&P's could spend time on more lucrative work. The A&P who signed the logs would walk over and inspect my safety wire on the filter, make sure I put the oil plug back in the right hole and make sure I put enough oil back in. Total time invested by the A&P signing the logs was typically about 90 seconds. Obviously this won't be the case at every shop but its definitely the case at some. A signature in a logbook on its own is not a guarantee that the work was performed by an actual A&P.

As a buyer I would place more value on a consistent history of oil samples being sent for analysis than whether or not the person who dumped the fresh oil into the motor had an A&P cert in their wallet.
 
Owners are allowed to change oil. As long as the work and log entry is done correctly, I do not see a problem.
 
If you have oil testing results, there's no reason to believe the entries are being faked. What could an owner possibly even do wrong that wouldn't be obvious anyway? I wouldn't waste any time at all on someone nit-picking on such absolute nonsense. My plane is not for you.
 
Salty said:
If you have oil testing results, there's no reason to believe the entries are being faked. What could an owner possibly even do wrong that wouldn't be obvious anyway? I wouldn't waste any time at all on someone nit-picking on such absolute nonsense. My plane is not for you.
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^^^ Yes

Buying a plane, seeing owner oil changes are fine as long as there is a pattern of quality maintenance. Seeing regular oil analysis, and consistent changes due to appropriate tach and calendar time are proof points of diligence. A series of sporadic owner oil changes with back to back no-issue annuals would be cause to deep deeper.
 
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