Oil Analysis Findings

Tan

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TheCapTan
My Piper 180 recent oil analysis shows continued increase in chrome. Last two trends went from baseline of 6 then 10 and now 15. My aluminum went up from 3 to 5. My oil burn has been adding 1 quart around 15 hours. Blackstone is saying my pistons and rings are wearing. When should I start to consider a rebuild?
 
How are the compressions? With oil burn like that, I would not be concerned.
 
my compressions were from annual 40 hours ago.
 
Engines break-in and then they slowly wear out. How many hours? From what little info you have given I don't know that I'd be crazy worried about it at this point but it is something to monitor ...
 
Engines break-in and then they slowly wear out. How many hours? From what little info you have given I don't know that I'd be crazy worried about it at this point but it is something to monitor ...
750 hours since last over haul.
 
How do your numbers compare to the universal averages?

Take some of those numbers with a grain of salt. Al going from 3ppm to 5ppm is almost double, but 3 and 5 are essentially the same number. It really depends on the analytical detection limit and the repeatability of the results.

Chrome? I’ve been coached that it can come from ring wear as a result of a period of disuse where cylinders get a bit of rust on them. I’d expect iron to go up slightly too then.

Compressions are great, oil use is great. Watch your filter, change oil often, and fly!
 
It's good that you're watching for trends.

So metals in your oil analysis gradually doubled. That's not worrisome by itself, not without other problems like significant metal in the filter.

Chromium and aluminum - I'm guessing that's a cylinder, and your mechanic did mention piston rings. Your oil consumption isn't bad at all. You're in California, so I'm guessing the problem is not cold-weather starts. Maybe one cylinder is slightly troubled, but maybe it can last a good while.

For cylinders, besides compression, it's great to get borescope imaging of the cylinders at the next annual inspection. Then check them again a year later to see if something is developing with one cylinder in particular.
 
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This is why I hate, hate, HATE oil analysis. Every single story is like this. “My oil analysis shows this thing that might be worrisome. There’s nothing in the filter, oil consumption is low, and borescope looks good.”

Then the answers say, “If everything else looks good, just keep an eye on it.” If that’s the correct response, OA adds nothing.
 
When should I start to consider a rebuild?
The thing to keep in mind is an oil analysis is only one of the tools to maintain your engine. It is not a diagnostic tool per se. There have been a few threads on PoA that go into more detail on how those different tools are used. Perhaps look them up.

Regardless when you take the results of all those tools like compression, oil useage, etc. you then have a picture of where your engine health is now. And once you trend out all those results over an extended period of time, then you can start looking into further checks or your next major maintenance cycle or repair. That is the purpose behind the oil analysis and similar tools. Unfortunately, those tools provide no benefit if one does not understand their purpose or how to use them.
 
This is why I hate, hate, HATE oil analysis. Every single story is like this. “My oil analysis shows this thing that might be worrisome. There’s nothing in the filter, oil consumption is low, and borescope looks good.”

Then the answers say, “If everything else looks good, just keep an eye on it.” If that’s the correct response, OA adds nothing.
If the answer was always that, then I'd agree, but "might be worrisome" and "is clearly a problem" are two different things, and oil analysis can show the latter.
 
You’re fine, just go fly it!

I would be careful and do some more investigation. I just went through this. I would be borescoping the cylinders. Our chromium was going up, then stopped going up. But what caused it was the rings had seized in the piston. Make sure and check your inter cylinder baffles. The cylinder in question on mine showed good compression just 50 hours before. When we took it off, and trying to free up the rings, one broke.
 
If the answer was always that, then I'd agree, but "might be worrisome" and "is clearly a problem" are two different things, and oil analysis can show the latter.
It's possible, I guess, but under what circumstances would you expect to find "clearly a problem" on the oil analysis, accompanied by normal oil usage, nothing concerning in the filter, and a normal borescope?
 
It's possible, I guess, but under what circumstances would you expect to find "clearly a problem" on the oil analysis, accompanied by normal oil usage, nothing concerning in the filter, and a normal borescope?
The "clearly a problem" should prompt you to look deeper than that.
 
Oil Analysis will tell you that you MIGHT have an issue.

Checking filter and screen will tell you there IS an issue.

Is this being done at oil changes?

Do you assure the sample is taken properly?

My preference is from the top via tubing; immediately after flight.
 
Do you have chrome cylinders?
Oil analysis is most useful as a trending indicator.
Here's a spreadsheet set up for Blackstone that will display trending charts over time. Read the instructions. The sheet is locked, but there is no password.

 
It's possible, I guess, but under what circumstances would you expect to find "clearly a problem" on the oil analysis, accompanied by normal oil usage, nothing concerning in the filter, and a normal borescope?
The oil analysis provides an indication to a potential problem way before you see it in the filters or scope. It simply gives you the ability to minimize collateral damage and fix the problem while still contained.

For example, have changed pistons due shedding aluminum and still under warranty. Also caught starter adapter damage before it caused further damage. All from oil analysis. But its your money.
 
IMG_6121.jpeg

Here’s my oil analysis if anyone wants to give me some opinions. I’ve only done the current one, the previous one is maybe from the previous owner?
 
This is why I hate, hate, HATE oil analysis. Every single story is like this. “My oil analysis shows this thing that might be worrisome. There’s nothing in the filter, oil consumption is low, and borescope looks good.”

Then the answers say, “If everything else looks good, just keep an eye on it.” If that’s the correct response, OA adds nothing.
Would you hate it if the owner/seller had a oil analysis for every oil change from the beginning on a engine you were considering buying?
 
. I’ve only done the current one
A single report doesnt offer much. Also multiple reports from samples taken by different methods or different engine locations can lead to skewed trends which can take you down the wrong path.

So until you pull several samples consistantly in the same manner I would wait to establish any type of base line to start trending.
 
The numbers in your oil analysis are not useful if not accompanied by the uncertainties. And you also need to be cognizant about sample variation--that is, how is the drawn sample collected so as to be representative of the bulk material. Then there is the time between samples to consider as well. My analytical chemistry students would get an "F" on data reporting without including (1) values (2) units and (3) uncertainties, and describing methodology and validation methods.

Measurements of 3 +/-3 and 6 +/- 3 ppm are a different animal than 3 +/-1 and 6 +/- 1 ppm. Even then, it is helpful to know the 95% CL as well as the detection limits to know if the measurement differences are significant. This is independent of sampling variability. I would also want to know how the lab is validating their results to assure their absolute values are reproducible.

I did my own oil analysis for quite a few years using atomic absorption, inductively coupled plasma emission, and total X-ray fluorescent emission methods (as an exercise for my students in the atomic absorption/emission and X-ray fluorescence segments of their analytical chemistry class) and discovered there is a great deal of variability in oil samples, and that other than a one-time sudden and alarmingly high silicon value, of not much added value in predicting engine health or impending failure. (The high silicon values pointed to a failed air filter.) For fluid sampling methods (like atomic absorption or emission) managing sample viscosity for analysis is critical in getting reproducible results, unless using multiple spike internal standards. I'm guessing most labs are using external standards or single spike internal standards for efficiency. This can be fraught with individual sample errors.
 
Contact Blackstone and ask them about their error bars. I'd be curious to know their confidence levels, as I have a similar philosophy as you--small variations may simply be noise. One would expect the long-term trends to tell more. Which is why a single oil analysis could easily be meaningless, whereas normalized trending across 10, 20, or more will tell you how the engine is aging.

I think much of the resistance to oil analysis is due to expectations a single analysis is predictive. Another interpretation error is comparing analyses with different runtimes, for example a 25 vs 50 hour analysis. I've always assumed that wear metal values are linear, that is 50 hours should be about double 25 hours. This is why in the spreadsheet linked above values are normalized to 50 hours.
 
@Domenick would you also have to account for make-up oil that would dilute the concentration over specific hours?

If I run 10 qts, and add a qt every 10 hours, then by hour 50, I’ve lost a percentage of the original oil, and a lesser percentage of the 10 hour make up, 20 hour make up, etc.

I don’t like math, but love it when other do it :)
 
I think much of the resistance to oil analysis is due to expectations a single analysis is predictive.
I've found the lack of oil analysis use at the Part 91 private/rec level is more due to a lack of education of the benefits. However, once those benefits are demonstrated and how the analysis fits into the overall picture on engine health they will subscribe to it. Some didn't but it was usually due to having a high time engine which provided a limited benefit at that time. However, once the engine was changed they would sign up for the analysis. But, the same could be said for Part 91 owners on regular prop balancing too. Preventative mx covers a wide range of tasks that to an engaged owner can make the difference in the long run.
 
This is why I hate, hate, HATE oil analysis. Every single story is like this. “My oil analysis shows this thing that might be worrisome. There’s nothing in the filter, oil consumption is low, and borescope looks good.” ...
The oil analysis provides an indication to a potential problem way before you see it in the filters or scope. It simply gives you the ability to minimize collateral damage and fix the problem while still contained. ...
One problem is that oil analysis can give both false positives, and false negatives. It can show high metals when there is nothing wrong, and it can fail to show anything when there is something wrong. This is true even with long-term trends.

After years of doing UOA regularly I stopped doing it because the data it provides is so useless. I still do cut out & inspect the oil filter with every oil change, and I borescope the engine at every annual.
 
One problem is that oil analysis can give both false positives, and false negatives. It can show high metals when there is nothing wrong, and it can fail to show anything when there is something wrong. This is true even with long-term trends.
Interesting. But that's not been my experience at all even after dealing with 100s of analyses across a number of different platforms. While I have seen skewed results, over 95% were due to external sample variations or contamination of the sample. Regardless, based on my experiences, I still recommend oil analysis as part of a regular monitoring program for any aircraft.
 
My belief is the variations come from samples that were taken Incorrectly.

ie. Too long after operation or not “ clean catch” .

On some jet engines you took the sample with the engine running.
 
Interesting. But that's not been my experience at all even after dealing with 100s of analyses across a number of different platforms. While I have seen skewed results, over 95% were due to external sample variations or contamination of the sample. ...
My belief is the variations come from samples that were taken Incorrectly. ...
Not in my case. I took every sample from an engine still warm immediately after flying, mid-drain (not near the start nor end), directly from the stream of draining oil into the sample container.

My UOA false negative was my prior O-320 which developed a leaky exhaust valve, and when we pulled the jug, had pitted cam & lifters. That engine had nothing but clean results in years of UOAs leading up to that event. This was followed by UOA false positives with the new O-360, which had high UOA metals that persisted for over 400 hours before gradually diminishing. Those high values had me needlessly chasing down ghosts in this healthy engine for the first 3 years. After these false negatives followed by false positives, without anything useful coming from the results, I decided to stop doing UOA.

My Piper 180 recent oil analysis shows continued increase in chrome. Last two trends went from baseline of 6 then 10 and now 15. My aluminum went up from 3 to 5. My oil burn has been adding 1 quart around 15 hours. Blackstone is saying my pistons and rings are wearing. When should I start to consider a rebuild?
My advice is to treat the patient, not the lab results. If the engine has no symptoms: easy starts, good power, good compressions, clean oil filter element & screen, oil consumption - 1 qt every 15 hours is perfectly healthy, borescopes during annual look good, then keep flying and don't worry about it. When the engine gets tired and time to overhaul is approaching, you won't need UOA to tell you because the engine will tell you in other ways that are more meaningful & reliable, like reduced power and compressions, increased oil consumption, etc.
 
AOA indicators, backup avionics and batteries, wet compass, dual mags, standby vacuum, blah, blah, blah. Borescope? Oil analysis? Real-time would be best. What we really need is a chip detector!
 
Dreaming oil, throwaway, paint strainer can tell you a lot also. Might be stuff you don’t really want to know.
 
Oil analysis is just one tool. With those compressions I wouldn’t be concerned honestly. All engines develop some wear throughout their lifespan. When compressions start to dip and oil usage increases that would be when I would start to get concerned.
 
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