Obtaining IR in a plane without IFR rated GPS

Parker Cantrell

Parker Cantrell

Filing Flight Plan
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Northwest Arkansas
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CaptCantrell
Hello all!

What are your thoughts on working towards my IR in an airplane without an IFR rated GPS? Currently, I run a Bendix/king skyforce III(not IFR approved) in my '68 Cardinal. In addition, what would be the best affordable IFR capable GPS systems on the market? Garmin 430 waas,garmin 155 xl, 175?

Thanks for your advice. Look forward to conversing with y'all.

-Parker :)
 
I would think about the fact that you'll obtain your IR but not be able to file IFR in that plane without upgrading the avionics.
I don't have much experience (200 TT) but most of the planes in the club I belong to are IFR certified, but there are only 2 that I would take into IMC.... ;)
 
MacFlier said:
I would think about the fact that you'll obtain your IR but not be able to file IFR in that plane without upgrading the avionics.
I don't have much experience (200 TT) but most of the planes in the club I belong to are IFR certified, but there are only 2 that I would take into IMC.... ;)
Click to expand...

Appreciate the advice!
 
Parker Cantrell said:
Hello all!

What are your thoughts on working towards my IR in an airplane without an IFR rated GPS? Currently, I run a Bendix/king skyforce III(not IFR approved) in my '68 Cardinal. In addition, what would be the best affordable IFR capable GPS systems on the market? Garmin 430 waas,garmin 155 xl, 175?

Thanks for your advice. Look forward to conversing with y'all.

-Parker :)
Click to expand...
Everything you've listed, other than the 175, is old technology, some not even supported anymore. Most cost-effective at this point is the 175 and a G5 as the HSI, or the 175 and a non-Garmin compatible CDI (without the HSI capability).

1) does the Cardinal have ADS-B out? If not, you may need to install it. The Garmin options include 1) ads-b out transponder GTX 335, or 2) the GNX 375 GPS/transponder.
There are other (and cheaper) ADS-B options that are not Garmin, such as the Stratus ESG (ADS-B & transponder) and the SkyBeacon (ADS-B out only)
2) if you already have ADS-B out, then all you need is the GPS 175 GPS and a CDI

You can find MSRP online and most dealers/suppliers will have lower prices. Don't forget the installation costs. If you go the transponder route, most will slip right into the hole of your existing transponder BUT....you'll need a GPS source and antenna - more money, more install.

Homework assignment: Put together a spreadsheet of the options with pricing of the common products, call around to local avionics shops for pricing with installation. Pick what fits your budget.

Here's the one I put together last year. All prices are retail, no install, no extra stuff that might be needed.

Garmin GTX 335 transponder ADS-B Out $3000
Garmin GNX 175 GPS $5000
Garmin GNX 375 GPS/transponder ADS-B Out $7644
Garmin G5 HSI indicator w/GPS interface $3125
Garmin GI 275 HSI indicator $4300
Stratus ESG transponder ADS-B Out $3000
SkyBeacon ADS-B Out $1850
TailBeacon transponder ADS-B Out $ 3000
 
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If your cardinal is otherwise equipped for conventional IFR and you are in an area where there are enough approaches to train and get the rating, do it. Then you could get additional training in gps later. This allows you to learn gps on your own terms.
 
Parker, you don't say if there are any other navigation radios/equipment in the panel.

I have a slightly different take on instrument training than many of our fellow board members, probably because I'm old.

Generally (I say generally) the first part of IR training will be attitude instrument flying. This requires no radios. The next part is radio navigation (I include GPS if the aircraft is equipped)

The concepts of identifying position and tracking a course are basically the same independent of type of source (I exclude NDB though it is neither as hard nor as inaccurate as many think) modern integrated gps systems make position identification easy -- but learning to draw a line on a map isn't very hard..

The third part is approaches, missed approaches, holding. At this point you will be best served by using the equipment you will use on the check ride.

The fourth part is operating in the system, legal niceties, etc. As @noahfong states gps is not required for the checkride if the aircraft is otherwise capable.

Certainly this order is flexible and one can integrate operating in the system earlier on for example.

Good luck.
 
I got my instrument rating in airplanes with two VORs and an ADF. Didn't even have DME. Of course, that was 1985.

I fly DC9s all around North American with nothing more than two VORs, two DMEs, and an ADF. Those airplanes weren't parked until 2009.

You can do it, but it isn't very practical for flying IFR these days.
 
Larry in TN said:
I got my instrument rating in airplanes with two VORs and an ADF. Didn't even have DME. Of course, that was 1985.
Click to expand...

Same here.

One member here got is instrument rating not too long ago with 1 VOR and 1 radio.
 
I think I said as much in another thread, but what is your intent of getting the instrument rating? If you are really intent on doing real IFR flying, these days you will want a IFR capable GPS, and you should learn with the equipment and airplane you intend to use.

Is it required, of course not. I first learned instruments with only VOR and ADF. But for real flying today I wouldn't do it with a GPS.

As for what product to install, there are a lot of options others have gone into. One thing you mentioned that I probably wouldn't do is a Garmin 430. Don't get me wrong the 430 is still a great product and very functional. But its also a 20 year old unit that is nearing end of life with Garmin and will eventually get cut off and turned into a brick.
 
Hi Parker.

My $0.02 worth kind of matches what a few others have already said. If you have an airport close by that has ILS/Localizer approach and maybe a VOR approach, I would leave my airplane as it is for now and spend my money working on the rating. The checkride, as I recall, requires three approaches. My recommendation is to talk to the CFII you are planning to use for working on your rating about this. More than likely, the CFII would have an idea if it is feasable in your area without an approach certified GPS unit.

Others here can correct me, but I believe if you have your rating, learning to use a GPS navigator for approaches would be a snap (I am a bit of an antique and learned with the analog stuff). Another benefit of waiting is that Garmin is coming out with new/better stuff all the time so by the time you needed it, there may be a perfect answer for you and your airplane. :)
 
Challenge may be in finding appropriate approaches to do on the dual XC that comply with the Glaser interpretation letter, and having two non-precision and a precision approach you can do on the checkride without GPS info.

If you have DME and ADF those "problems" are a lot easier to solve.

I conducted 30 Instrument checkrides in 2020. Two of them were in non-GPS airplanes.
 
Hi Tony.

Can you give us the Cliff Notes version of the Glaser interpretation letter? I had not heard of that.
 
Glaser says that for the instrument cross-county requirement in training you can do any three different ones of NDB, LDA, VOR, GPS, SDF, LOC. ASR and PAR don't count.

The problem is that if you have no GPS or ADF, you're going to have to find an LDA or SDF approach to make the three.

The checkride is usually not a problem because you can do a non-precision LOC, a VOR, and a precision ILS.
 
murphey said:
Everything you've listed, other than the 175, is old technology, some not even supported anymore. Most cost-effective at this point is the 175 and a G5 as the HSI, or the 175 and a non-Garmin compatible CDI (without the HSI capability).

1) does the Cardinal have ADS-B out? If not, you may need to install it. The Garmin options include 1) ads-b out transponder GTX 335, or 2) the GNX 375 GPS/transponder.
There are other (and cheaper) ADS-B options that are not Garmin, such as the Stratus ESG (ADS-B & transponder) and the SkyBeacon (ADS-B out only)
2) if you already have ADS-B out, then all you need is the GPS 175 GPS and a CDI

You can find MSRP online and most dealers/suppliers will have lower prices. Don't forget the installation costs. If you go the transponder route, most will slip right into the hole of your existing transponder BUT....you'll need a GPS source and antenna - more money, more install.

Homework assignment: Put together a spreadsheet of the options with pricing of the common products, call around to local avionics shops for pricing with installation. Pick what fits your budget.

Here's the one I put together last year. All prices are retail, no install, no extra stuff that might be needed.

Garmin GTX 335 transponder ADS-B Out $3000
Garmin GNX 175 GPS $5000
Garmin GNX 375 GPS/transponder ADS-B Out $7644
Garmin G5 HSI indicator w/GPS interface $3125
Garmin GI 275 HSI indicator $4300
Stratus ESG transponder ADS-B Out $3000
SkyBeacon ADS-B Out $1850
TailBeacon transponder ADS-B Out $ 3000
Click to expand...

Murphey,

You're the man! What a community this is. I am beyond appreciative of the time you put into the response.

1) Currently have to uavionix ads-b tail beacon installed, got that box checked! Pretty old narco at-150 installed, gets the trick done, the altitude encoder has a mind of its own, that's a forum for another time:D

2) Great advice going with the newer technology, I will take that into account as I weigh my options. I appreciate your breakdown of possible options, this gives me great guidance in my research.

This is the first homework assignment that I'm looking forward to! Beats analyzing Shakespeare lol!

-Parker
 
noahfong said:
If your cardinal is otherwise equipped for conventional IFR and you are in an area where there are enough approaches to train and get the rating, do it. Then you could get additional training in gps later. This allows you to learn gps on your own terms.
Click to expand...

Great idea. My flight school has a nice RedBird sim. I can build a good foundation on sim while working on non-gps approaches in the Cardinal!
 
My advice is to train the way you want to fly IFR later. The reality is that the IFR system is GPS-centric. I would strongly recommend thinking about doing an affordable, modern, IFR GPS upgrade then training with that configuration in preparation for using the rating once it is earned. Without GPS, your approach and nav options will be increasingly limited, especially at non-metro airports. I did my IR in 1989 without GPS, but of course then GPS wasn't really a big thing. Now it is.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Sadly, the remaining NDB approach here in the valley went away.
Click to expand...
With an ADF needle bouncing all over the place, who can tell me that I'm wrong! LOL

Parker Cantrell said:
Great idea. My flight school has a nice RedBird sim. I can build a good foundation on sim while working on non-gps approaches in the Cardinal!
Click to expand...
I'd also recommend the online navigation simulators at http://www.luizmonteiro.com/ to practice your navigation skills without the distractions of also having to fly an airplane.
 
For what it worth, if you have the original IFR required nav-coms and basic 6 pack, forget the GPS. If original, radios are likely ARC 300 series and IFR certified. Spend your $ on a good IFR CFI, that’s where you will get the most benefit for your dollar. Be sure your pitot static inspection is current for IFR (many VFR only aircraft don’t bother). Be sure not to file IFR indicating you have GPS.....that could be a problem should you screw up and get a gross nav violation, and/or ATC may likely assign a clearance you would not technically be legal to accept.

if you want to use your GPS for IFR later, simply ask ATC for a vector enroute and use the GPS data to stay on course. That’s legal. If you plan on actually flying in IMC or at night, spend your $ on a backup vacuum pump.
Hope this helps.
 
MacFlier said:
I would think about the fact that you'll obtain your IR but not be able to file IFR in that plane without upgrading the avionics.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Got one of them thar fancy regulations to share with us?

Or is this just another, much more poorly worded, statement about how VOR's and land based navigation don't exist (even though they do) and that it's GPS or nuthin' here in modern 2021?
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Hey. It beats listening to the As and Ns!
Click to expand...
I've never done that, but I know how it worked.

Flying ADF approaches was easy, particularly if you had an RMI. The hard part was learning to do it.

AlphaPilotFlyer said:
if you want to use your GPS for IFR later, simply ask ATC for a vector enroute and use the GPS data to stay on course. That’s legal.
Click to expand...
No, it's not. If you are on a vector, the regulations require that you fly the vector. It is not legal to adjust the vector on your own. If you think the vector is no longer accurate, ask for an updated vector.
 
Do you think ATC cares if you crab your heading a few degrees and remain on the same original vector line? If so, simply ask for a new heading every now and then, but it will be about the same. Normally, we would ask for updated heading to the direct fix each freq handoff, sometimes they’d suggest a new heading, but because you were likely on the same ground based vector, they’d say it looks good. This was common practice flying late night cargo and being cleared direct to destination airport from 1000 miles away via vector. It was not uncommon to be cleared direct LAX from Detroit once on center freq.

your clearance was a heading based on a ground track. I doubt that will change much an a typical C177 leg. But yes, technically ask for update if heading changes much.....ATC will likely say same as original heading because you will be on same ground track.
 
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AlphaPilotFlyer said:
Do you think ATC cares if you crab your heading a few degrees and remain on the same original vector line?
Click to expand...
I don't know. Perhaps they're counting on your current ground track to maintain separation from another aircraft or an airspace boundary. The pilot doesn't know. The regulation is clear. You are required to follow the clearance you have been given. If you want something different, request it.

Normally, we would ask for updated heading to the direct fix each freq handoff, sometimes they’d suggest a new heading, but because you were likely on the same ground based vector, they’d say it looks good. This was common practice flying late night cargo and being cleared direct to destination airport from 1000 miles away. It was not uncommon to be cleared direct LAX from Detroit once on center freq.
Click to expand...
Yes, I know. I spent 12 years flying DC9s around North America with nothing more than two VORs, two DMEs, and one ADF. We would get a heading for a VOR hundreds of miles away routinely. We flew that heading. The heading will change, as you proceed, due to the curvature of the Earth so it's normal to have regular small updates (which will turn you in the direction of the equator).
 
You had DME? Our B727s were always inop..... With IFR PTS being within 10 degrees and old but certified HDG’s drifting as they do with no way to properly reset enroute, who’s to say what your heading really is. I have never heard of anyone getting in hot water over it.
 
Parker Cantrell said:
Hello all!

What are your thoughts on working towards my IR in an airplane without an IFR rated GPS? Currently, I run a Bendix/king skyforce III(not IFR approved) in my '68 Cardinal. In addition, what would be the best affordable IFR capable GPS systems on the market? Garmin 430 waas,garmin 155 xl, 175?

Thanks for your advice. Look forward to conversing with y'all.

-Parker :)
Click to expand...

You will be trained to operate in 1968. The reality is you will need an IFR RNAV to function in today’s airspace.
 
Larry in TN said:
I don't know. Perhaps they're counting on your current ground track to maintain separation from another aircraft or an airspace boundary. The pilot doesn't know. The regulation is clear. You are required to follow the clearance you have been given. If you want something different, request it.


Yes, I know. I spent 12 years flying DC9s around North America with nothing more than two VORs, two DMEs, and one ADF. We would get a heading for a VOR hundreds of miles away routinely. We flew that heading. The heading will change, as you proceed, due to the curvature of the Earth so it's normal to have regular small updates (which will turn you in the direction of the equator).
Click to expand...

DR is not illegal IFR, I've done it domestically and over the pond. Domestically. "Tweety Bird 43N request heading 170 until able direct ABC." Works great if all you have is a VFR gps.
 
AlphaPilotFlyer said:
For what it worth, if you have the original IFR required nav-coms and basic 6 pack, forget the GPS. If original, radios are likely ARC 300 series and IFR certified. Spend your $ on a good IFR CFI, that’s where you will get the most benefit for your dollar. Be sure your pitot static inspection is current for IFR (many VFR only aircraft don’t bother). Be sure not to file IFR indicating you have GPS.....that could be a problem should you screw up and get a gross nav violation, and/or ATC may likely assign a clearance you would not technically be legal to accept.

if you want to use your GPS for IFR later, simply ask ATC for a vector enroute and use the GPS data to stay on course. That’s legal. If you plan on actually flying in IMC or at night, spend your $ on a backup vacuum pump.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Appreciate the response. Lots of great advice here that I will take into account as I breakdown my options. Already have the pitot-static inspection set up! Thanks for mentioning that.

Happy flying- Parker
 
chemgeek said:
My advice is to train the way you want to fly IFR later. The reality is that the IFR system is GPS-centric. I would strongly recommend thinking about doing an affordable, modern, IFR GPS upgrade then training with that configuration in preparation for using the rating once it is earned. Without GPS, your approach and nav options will be increasingly limited, especially at non-metro airports. I did my IR in 1989 without GPS, but of course then GPS wasn't really a big thing. Now it is.
Click to expand...

Your first sentence really stands out to me. Solid points here!
 
Arnold said:
DR is not illegal IFR, I've done it domestically and over the pond.
Click to expand...
You would need an appropriate clearance.

Domestically. "Tweety Bird 43N request heading 170 until able direct ABC." Works great if all you have is a VFR gps.
Click to expand...
As I said, I used to do that routinely in DC9s all over North America. My point is that if you are on a 170 vector then you are required to fly heading 170. If 170 is no longer taking you to where you want to go, get the vector updated.
 
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