Observations about aircraft buyers - Year 2014

[flyingcheesehead]

Figured I should split this into a new thread...

Been looking for an airplane for at least 7 months, along with about a bazillion other things that occupy my attention / time. But, I have looked enough that I feel like I can offer some observations to Sellers to help them turn that chunk of aluminum into cash.


Online? Welcome to 2014!!!
Your Listing: Got my attention!! PRICE
Pictures in Your Listing!!
Description:
First of all, why are you YELLING at me?
Second, you are trying to sell a $50k asset and use less than 80 characters to describe it? What do you think my first questions are going to be? Where do I mail the check? or, do you think I will ask "How much time is on the engine?" "Is it in annual?" and about a 100 other things.

Let's Talk: I see you don't want scammers, low-ballers, and tire kickers.
Want me to Call you
Oh, you want me to email you?

Can you send me pictures? How about taking 40 pictures of the plane out at the airport

Fine, what is the "N" number and where is the plane?
You won't tell me, because you want to be there when I look at it?

Logbooks: Could I see them?
Did you check the engine? How come you didn't copy the engine log? Since you didn't give me the compressions, should I assume they were poor? What about the prop?

I know, the engine is past TBO, but 'it runs strong' and my mechanic* said it will go another 1000 hrs easy.

OK, let's look at this from the other side.

I'm selling a plane. I have a detailed ad online. It has a reasonable price listed, in fact it's consistently been one of the three cheapest ones of its make and model (which leads to some downsides for me - I get all the low-ballers). I've got several pictures in the ad, a full description, both my phone and email... And anyone who calls gets an email with about 40 additional pictures, scanned logbooks in their entirety including the latest oil analysis (with the history of the previous several analyses as well). If anyone calls, I'm happy to spend an hour answering as many questions as they have. No tire-kicker language (I hate that too).

The N number is there, I'll tell you where it is, I'll give you the phone number of the mechanic who did the last annual - Hell, I'll give you the phone number of the shop that did the previous dozen annuals as well. I expect you to want a pre-buy inspection, and you're free to use my hangar for it, or I've already arranged for your mechanic to be able to use the on-field shop's heated hanger if it's cold as well as their jacks so your guy can swing the gear. I'll tell you the compressions. And yes, when I said logs I mean airframe, engine, prop and avionics. Complete logs to the day the plane rolled off the line.

I'm even willing to fly to people and give them a demo ride, on my dime. I've flown up to 300nm away to do so - Again, on my dime. (Hey, if nothing else, it's an excuse to go fly and I love to fly this plane!)

I've had as many problems with buyers as you've had with sellers, José - And you still don't have a plane, and I still do.

So, you want me to give you 40% off the already-fair asking price right off the bat? Even worse, you want me to instantly tell you how low my lowest possible selling price would be? No, I don't expect to get the full asking price for it, even though it's a fair price that I'd gladly pay myself if I had that kind of coin.

You want me to put in the avionics you want for no change in price, even though it's priced for the avionics that are in it (and are pretty damn good already)?

You want me to discount it by the price of an engine overhaul even though the engine is running fine, has time left on it, and it's already priced with the engine time taken into account? And you'll tell me that the engine NEEDS a top overhaul every 600 hours when it's pushing 1500 without ever having had one?

You make an offer on my airplane and pull out just a couple days before the weekend I had cleared for you to come look at it with your A&P for no stated reason? Worse yet, you make an offer on my airplane while simultaneously making offers on other airplanes and then simply don't return (or answer) my calls until after you bought a different one?

I guess the real lesson in all of this is: People suck. Buyers, sellers, or none of the above. So, be thankful for the people in your life who don't suck!

 

[ClimbnSink]

Yup. It is a people/slash oddball market thing. Doesn't matter how much money is at stake only a weirdo would want to own a little airplane.

 

[Kelvin]

My favorite line one of my buddies selling a Meridian made to a potential buyer...

Sir, the plane is FOR sale...not ON sale...

 

[asgcpa]

My favorite line one of my buddies selling a Meridian made to a potential buyer...

Sir, the plane is FOR sale...not ON sale...

That is a good one

 

[rpadula]

Well said, Kent. Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble selling it.

 

[weilke]

As this is not the for sale section and you sort of invited it, I think I can comment on why your plane hasn't sold yet:

- your engine is in the last third of its life, yes I know 'it runs strong' and 'my mechanic says it has lot of time in it', but the last time the bottom end has been looked at Bill Clinton was running his re-election campaign. That is as 50k check waiting to be written within the next two years.

- your prop hasn't been apart for 17 years. I just wrote a $13,800 check for a new deiced prop because the one we had needed new internals due to corrosion (that was 6 years since overhaul on a high utilization plane, go figure).

- with those radios your uncle was king of the hill in 1997. I have flown with the 89B and loved it at the time, but its capabilities are pretty limited. The Argus moving map is a boat anchor. Pulling the 89B, a KX155 and installing a 750 with internal audio panel is net a 25k job.


So, as nice a plane as it is, many buyers see that they'll have to write 85k worth in checks over the next 2 years. Then they look at controller and find a 2004 model with 126hrs since overhaul and current avionics for 40k more than your asking and without all the hassle of doing the updating project themselves.

Your plane hasn't sold because your asking price is too high.

 

[frfly172]

Buyers are a finicky lot. Now that he made an offer and backed out he's looking for support. Not even a phone call . Once a bona Fidel offer is made wether the other posters believe the airplane is worth it or not,the buyer should have at least made a phone call.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As this is not the for sale section and you sort of invited it, I think I can comment on why your plane hasn't sold yet:

- your engine is in the last third of its life, yes I know 'it runs strong' and 'my mechanic says it has lot of time in it', but the last time the bottom end has been looked at Bill Clinton was running his re-election campaign. That is as 50k check waiting to be written within the next two years.

And it's priced accordingly.

Frankly, when I buy an airplane I will WANT one that's got a high time engine and is priced accordingly. Then, any time you get past TBO is essentially free money... Get a good inspection, be ready for it, and then keep on flying it until it tells you it's ready.

- your prop hasn't been apart for 17 years. I just wrote a $13,800 check for a new deiced prop because the one we had needed new internals due to corrosion (that was 6 years since overhaul on a high utilization plane, go figure).

And it's priced accordingly.

- with those radios your uncle was king of the hill in 1997. I have flown with the 89B and loved it at the time, but its capabilities are pretty limited. The Argus moving map is a boat anchor. Pulling the 89B, a KX155 and installing a 750 with internal audio panel is net a 25k job.

And it's priced accordingly. In addition, there is nothing wrong with what's in there. Believe me, I came from flying planes with Garmin - Both 430W and G1000 - And with the HSI and the iPad aboard, I don't miss the Garmin at all. If the partnership materializes, upgrading the GPS is not the first thing I'd want to do.

So, as nice a plane as it is, many buyers see that they'll have to write 85k worth in checks over the next 2 years. Then they look at controller and find a 2004 model with 126hrs since overhaul and current avionics for 40k more than your asking and without all the hassle of doing the updating project themselves.

See, I look at that one and I think Waitaminute - That "single owner" only managed to get 880 hours out of a brand-new engine and now he's had another 130 hours to abuse it? Yikes! And while it has the Garmin toys, it also has the useful-load-sucking air conditioner. Great for a southern plane, worthless for a northern one - With the climb rates I get, cool air is only a few minutes from the ground. Mine is much better suited for those in the northern half of the country (or Canada) with the engine heater, deiced prop, etc.

Your plane hasn't sold because your asking price is too high.

So make an offer...

 

[weilke]

See, I look at that one and I think Waitaminute - That "single owner" only managed to get 880 hours out of a brand-new engine and now he's had another 130 hours to abuse it? Yikes! And while it has the Garmin toys, it also has the useful-load-sucking air conditioner.

That is what one calls 'rationalization'.

There is another one. 2 years younger than yours with TKS, Garmin 530, TCAS, Aspen PFD and a fresh prop. It doesn't mention an OH, so the engine is at about the same stage of life as yours. The difference in asking prices is less than what it would take to put a GPS with vertical guidance into yours.

You keep saying that it is 'priced accordingly', that is probably correct in a 'I know what its worth to me' sense but not relative to the limited market for that particular airframe.

So make an offer...

This would be my business plane, to get yours to what I need for that mission would be silly expensive.

Otoh, I used to live in Wauwatosa, had my career kept me there, 1/4 of the plane would quickly sold.

 

[steingar]

And it's priced accordingly.

I'm going to make this as simple as I can. You aircraft is priced too high because it hasn't sold.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Figured I should split this into a new thread...













OK, let's look at this from the other side.

I hope you are not implying or attributing any of your following comments (about price, etc..) to me, as I mad none of them, nor have I made any comments in the Seller thread about someone's plane being priced too high, low balling them, or anything else. My comments and observations were about the process and the communication provided/not provided by Sellers while trying to sell a fairly large ticket item.

So, you want me to give you 40% off the already-fair asking price right off the bat? Even worse, you want me to instantly tell you how low my lowest possible selling price would be? No, I don't expect to get the full asking price for it, even though it's a fair price that I'd gladly pay myself if I had that kind of coin.

So, I think I might have discovered an issue with your listing. You have an Asking Price, but you don't expect to get that Asking Price. Why not lower your Asking Price to the price you actually think you will get and/or the plane is worth???

I have no comment on the value of your plane, but seems like you have an Asking Price that you are willing to lower, if the Buyer is a skilled enough negotiator and can get you to lower the price. Seems like an odd game you are setting up. (And, FYI, the way THAT game gets played is by the Buyer telling you all sorts of crap about the engine, the avionics, etc, trying to convince you that your item is worth less. Personally, from a Buyer or a Seller's point of view, I hate that game.)

I guess the real lesson in all of this is: People suck. Buyers, sellers, or none of the above. So, be thankful for the people in your life who don't suck!

Too bad you feel that way, for the most part, there are lots of good people, and lots of good in people. Life is too short to worry about the occasional bad apple you run into.

As this is not the for sale section and you sort of invited it, I think I can comment on why your plane hasn't sold yet:

<snip>

Your plane hasn't sold because your asking price is too high.

Sounds like he knows he won't get the full asking price, but for some reason, likes seeing that number listed.

And it's priced accordingly.


<snip>

And it's priced accordingly.

<snip>

And it's priced accordingly.

<snip>


So make an offer...

If there is an "offer" that would cause you to jump, why ask him to "make an offer"? Just list the price at the price you will take, and be done with it. You almost seem to be inviting/wanting the bad behavior you don't want.

I haz confusion....

 

[SkyHog]

I hope you are not implying or attributing any of your following comments (about price, etc..) to me, as I mad none of them, nor have I made any comments in the Seller thread about someone's plane being priced too high, low balling them, or anything else. My comments and observations were about the process and the communication provided/not provided by Sellers while trying to sell a fairly large ticket item.




So, I think I might have discovered an issue with your listing. You have an Asking Price, but you don't expect to get that Asking Price. Why not lower your Asking Price to the price you actually think you will get and/or the plane is worth???

I have no comment on the value of your plane, but seems like you have an Asking Price that you are willing to lower, if the Buyer is a skilled enough negotiator and can get you to lower the price. Seems like an odd game you are setting up. (And, FYI, the way THAT game gets played is by the Buyer telling you all sorts of crap about the engine, the avionics, etc, trying to convince you that your item is worth less. Personally, from a Buyer or a Seller's point of view, I hate that game.)



Too bad you feel that way, for the most part, there are lots of good people, and lots of good in people. Life is too short to worry about the occasional bad apple you run into.




Sounds like he knows he won't get the full asking price, but for some reason, likes seeing that number listed.



If there is an "offer" that would cause you to jump, why ask him to "make an offer"? Just list the price at the price you will take, and be done with it. You almost seem to be inviting/wanting the bad behavior you don't want.

I haz confusion....

I do tend to agree, but not just here. Basically everywhere in American life - why do we set ourselves up for the additional stress associated with haggling pricing?

If I want to buy a soda from a store, it is $1.50 plus tax. If I want to get meal at a restaurant, I pay the price on the menu.

Why, then, when I buy a car, do I have to spend all day long trying to haggle the price down?

Why, then, when buying a house, do I have to spend days going back and forth over features and add-ins to get a price I feel comfortable with?

Why are airplane sales negotiated?

Car Max has it right. Everyone needs to start following that model for pricing.

 

[Bill]

I do tend to agree, but not just here. Basically everywhere in American life - why do we set ourselves up for the additional stress associated with haggling pricing?

Ive sold a bunch of cars and motorcycles over the years. They've all sold within a week. Why? I wanted to sell them and they were priced accordingly. Serious buyers knew they were priced to sell and a good value. Most sold without haggling.

Could I have held out for a little more? sure, but then it would add stress and/or they wouldn't sell.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That is what one calls 'rationalization'.

It's what I would think were I the buyer - And I buy more airplanes than I sell. (Flying club)

There is another one. 2 years younger than yours with TKS, Garmin 530, TCAS, Aspen PFD and a fresh prop. It doesn't mention an OH, so the engine is at about the same stage of life as yours. The difference in asking prices is less than what it would take to put a GPS with vertical guidance into yours.

I'm not finding that - Got a link?

You keep saying that it is 'priced accordingly', that is probably correct in a 'I know what its worth to me' sense but not relative to the limited market for that particular airframe.

Not to mention that in this economy it's a lot easier to justify something like a Comanche 250 that's almost as fast, burns just a little more fuel, and can be had for well under half the price. You can buy a lot of fuel and maintenance for $100K.

Otoh, I used to live in Wauwatosa, had my career kept me there, 1/4 of the plane would quickly sold.

Yep. I think maybe I need to buy the mailing list of all the pilots in surrounding counties and send out a postcard or something...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I hope you are not implying or attributing any of your following comments (about price, etc..) to me, as I mad none of them, nor have I made any comments in the Seller thread about someone's plane being priced too high, low balling them, or anything else. My comments and observations were about the process and the communication provided/not provided by Sellers while trying to sell a fairly large ticket item.

No, it's mainly that I'm "doing everything right" according to your thread (and I agree with everything you say) but still can't sell the plane, and I end up having to deal with many of the same problems you do when working with sellers.

So, I think I might have discovered an issue with your listing. You have an Asking Price, but you don't expect to get that Asking Price. Why not lower your Asking Price to the price you actually think you will get and/or the plane is worth???

Because it seems that nobody expects to pay the asking price. I would say that over 50% of buyers, the first question is "what's the lowest amount you'll take for it?" That's not how negotiation works.

I've also heard that many brokers will advise their sellers to "Take what you want to get for it and add 30%" to get the asking price. If I did that, it'd be way overpriced like many other planes out there are. I get people calling and asking "Will you take 30% off?" No. But make me an offer you think is reasonable, and we'll either work toward a good price from there, or one of us won't budge and the other will walk.

I have no comment on the value of your plane, but seems like you have an Asking Price that you are willing to lower, if the Buyer is a skilled enough negotiator and can get you to lower the price. Seems like an odd game you are setting up. (And, FYI, the way THAT game gets played is by the Buyer telling you all sorts of crap about the engine, the avionics, etc, trying to convince you that your item is worth less. Personally, from a Buyer or a Seller's point of view, I hate that game.)

I'm not a big fan of it either, but it seems to be what people are expecting.

If there is an "offer" that would cause you to jump, why ask him to "make an offer"? Just list the price at the price you will take, and be done with it. You almost seem to be inviting/wanting the bad behavior you don't want.

Well, I'm not going to list it at the bare minimum price that we'd possibly take - Nobody wants to pay the asking price.

The other thing is that if you make the asking price a real steal, people start asking what's wrong with the plane and what you're trying to hide.

 

[N747JB]

I am enjoying these buying and selling threads as well as the new car thread from a week or two ago. You guys all sound like one of my customers, not all the same one, but I can identify someone that is very like most of ya'll. That's not good or bad, it's just the way business works, some folks are easy to deal with, some are tough and for a select few I enjoy it when they go down the street.
100 ways to buy or sell an airplane, car, boat or real estate. Start high, start at rock bottom, cooperate with anything the buyer wants, or tell him to buy or F off. It's fun to see it's not just the car business.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I am enjoying these buying and selling threads as well as the new car thread from a week or two ago. You guys all sound like one of my customers, not all the same one, but I can identify someone that is very like most of ya'll. That's not good or bad, it's just the way business works, some folks are easy to deal with, some are tough and for a select few I enjoy it when they go down the street.
100 ways to buy or sell an airplane, car, boat or real estate. Start high, start at rock bottom, cooperate with anything the buyer wants, or tell him to buy or F off. It's fun to see it's not just the car business.

Exactly. I have customers that want to come in and sit down and haggle. I have others that want to have a large file of emails and send emails back and forth for 3 weeks. I have others that submit RFP's (Request for Proposals) and want a bid by Tuesday, the 17th, pre-bid meeting tomorrow, 800 miles away). I have customers that are happy sending a half dozen text messages and then a large check.

Some are easier to deal with than others, some are more profitable than others. And, I can choose which ones I send down the street. In 2009, during the bottom of the recession, you jumped thru hoops on every one of them. Today, being much better times, not sure I would jump thru ANY hoops on some RFP's I have seen in the past. Not worth it for low margin projects.

Kind of doesn't matter how the Buyer wants to communicate, I try and accommodate them. Gotta keep the revenue coming in, gotta meet payroll 2x a month.

 

[JoseCuervo]

No, it's mainly that I'm "doing everything right" according to your thread (and I agree with everything you say) but still can't sell the plane, and I end up having to deal with many of the same problems you do when working with sellers.

As a Buyer, I kind of see a three step process:

1. Gather Information
2. Verify Information
3. Negotiate

I applaud you for making Step 1 as easy as you have. Many Sellers haven't, in my recent 2014 experience. (See other thread).

There must be something else going on in Step 2 (doubtful) or Step 3 that is making it difficult for your plane. That might be the area to take a step back and re-evaluate your thinkings in light of the Year 2014...

Because it seems that nobody expects to pay the asking price. I would say that over 50% of buyers, the first question is "what's the lowest amount you'll take for it?" That's not how negotiation works.

See the 3 Steps Above. I guess there is no hard fast order for them, and I can see people wanting to Start at Step 3, get a agreement on price, then get information in Step 1, then verify it in Step2.

Might be more efficient in a time frame, but not sure that it leads to a good process. But why couldn't negotitation work that way? There is no reason for you not to tell them the lowest amount you would take, and then they can buy or walk. (Now, after you tell them that, they agree, then try to low-ball you, you have to just suggest they take a hike.)

I've also heard that many brokers will advise their sellers to "Take what you want to get for it and add 30%" to get the asking price. If I did that, it'd be way overpriced like many other planes out there are. I get people calling and asking "Will you take 30% off?" No. But make me an offer you think is reasonable, and we'll either work toward a good price from there, or one of us won't budge and the other will walk.

That is old "used car dealer" thinking. I would think brokers would be money ahead selling for 30% less on 15 day listings than sitting for 7 months on a 30% too high price, not getting a sale. That is a game.

I'm not a big fan of it either, but it seems to be what people are expecting.

Again, step back and re-think this approach. You claim to have been having a long sales process that isn't productive, it might be something fundamental to the approach, given the plane looks like a keeper. (Hint, hint.)

Well, I'm not going to list it at the bare minimum price that we'd possibly take - Nobody wants to pay the asking price.

Right there. That right there. You have it. There is a price you will take, to sell it tomorrow, and, for some reason, you won't share that price with the (potential) Buyers out there.

The other thing is that if you make the asking price a real steal, people start asking what's wrong with the plane and what you're trying to hide.

What do you think the reason it hasn't sold yet is?

What is the ONE thing you could do tomorrow, that would move it up the list of the "next Mooney to be sold"?

 

[somorris]

Maybe you could try dropping the price incrementally until you find out what the market is?

 

[rpadula]

As this is not the for sale section and you sort of invited it, I think I can comment on why your plane hasn't sold yet:

- your engine is in the last third of its life, yes I know 'it runs strong' and 'my mechanic says it has lot of time in it', but the last time the bottom end has been looked at Bill Clinton was running his re-election campaign. That is as 50k check waiting to be written within the next two years.

- your prop hasn't been apart for 17 years. I just wrote a $13,800 check for a new deiced prop because the one we had needed new internals due to corrosion (that was 6 years since overhaul on a high utilization plane, go figure).

- with those radios your uncle was king of the hill in 1997. I have flown with the 89B and loved it at the time, but its capabilities are pretty limited. The Argus moving map is a boat anchor. Pulling the 89B, a KX155 and installing a 750 with internal audio panel is net a 25k job.


So, as nice a plane as it is, many buyers see that they'll have to write 85k worth in checks over the next 2 years.

I don't think you've made the case for this at all. Kent's engine has 550 hrs to TBO. At a generous 100 hrs/year casual flyer, that's 5 years or so until overhaul, not two. Prop is more likely a spend item, but condition can be determined. Avionics stack is discretionary spending as well. Switching radios doesn't make the plane fly any differently.

Then they look at controller and find a 2004 model with 126hrs since overhaul and current avionics for 40k more than your asking and without all the hassle of doing the updating project themselves.

I noticed the ad for that one doesn't have the magic words "no damage history" and in two minutes of using teh Google found out why the engine was overhauled so early, followed by a prop OH. Not a fair comparison wouldn't you say?

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/10003-buying-aircraft-with-damage-history-good-idea-bad-idea/

Your plane hasn't sold because your asking price is too high.

I can't agree with this. I look at municipal bonds from time to time. I see issues that don't trade for months. Are they overpriced? I also see some trade at a price I wouldn't pay. That market is thin and I'd bet the single engine plane market is even thinner. So I'd expect the asset to take longer to trade hands.

How much would you lower the price if it was your plane?

 

[rpadula]

Otoh, I used to live in Wauwatosa, had my career kept me there, 1/4 of the plane would quickly sold.

Soooo... You're saying Kent's plane isn't overpriced after all?

 

[rpadula]

Ive sold a bunch of cars and motorcycles over the years. They've all sold within a week. Why? I wanted to sell them and they were priced accordingly. Serious buyers knew they were priced to sell and a good value. Most sold without haggling.

Could I have held out for a little more? sure, but then it would add stress and/or they wouldn't sell.

+1 on that. If one wants a quick sale, one must know where the market is.

I sold my Buick...er...Commander 112 in early March 2010. Not a popular airplane and a really crappy time in the economy. It took me a month. I looked at the average price of 112's at the time, decided there was no way in hell any would sell at those prices, and set mine below them minus one year's holding costs (ins, parking, annual, gps updates, fuel). What's the point in holding out for average price if it takes you a year or more to get it?

However, I only looked like a genius because prices flattened or even continued to decline.

 

[N747JB]

I sold the Citation in March 2007, it was a little less than I wanted to take, but sometimes your first offer is your best offer. And this was our first legitimate offer, so I sold it and I'm very glad it sold when it did. I had no idea the airplane market was about to crash, but I'm happy I wasn't holding a high priced Citation II S/P when it did!

+1 on that. If one wants a quick sale, one must know where the market is.

I sold my Buick...er...Commander 112 in early March 2010. Not a popular airplane and a really crappy time in the economy. It took me a month. I looked at the average price of 112's at the time, decided there was no way in hell any would sell at those prices, and set mine below them minus one year's holding costs (ins, parking, annual, gps updates, fuel). What's the point in holding out for average price if it takes you a year or more to get it?

However, I only looked like a genius because prices flattened or even continued to decline.

 

[docmirror]

Haggling never bothered me except someone on the phone asking for my lowest price. I tell all of them price is firm until you arrive in person.

Everything can be haggled, even the price of a retail can of soda. No one does it but you can if you want.

One axiom I learned well is that buyers set prices, not sellers.

 

[weilke]

I don't think you've made the case for this at all. Kent's engine has 550 hrs to TBO. At a generous 100 hrs/year casual flyer, that's 5 years or so until overhaul, not two.

Or it loses oil pressure 50hrs in. It is a high time engine and there are rated pilots who weren't yet born when this engine was apart the last time.

Prop is more likely a spend item, but condition can be determined.

Yup, $2500 is going to get it inspected and resealed. If the current owner chose to spend that money, the $16,900 (last weeks quote for a McCauley deiced blackmack) risk that comes with the prop was off the table.

Avionics stack is discretionary spending as well. Switching radios doesn't make the plane fly any differently.

Sure, but if you look at the market for Ovations, the other aircraft he is competing with have been upgraded and are younger. I would fly it like it is, but when it comes to selling, a KLN89B is ancient.

I noticed the ad for that one doesn't have the magic words "no damage history" and in two minutes of using teh Google found out why the engine was overhauled so early, followed by a prop OH. Not a fair comparison wouldn't you say?

Take off $18,300 for damage history. It is a Mooney, pay a knowledgeable Mooney mechanic to drop the belly pan to check whether the repairs were done properly.

How much would you lower the price if it was your plane?

If I wanted to
- sell it ?
or
- tell my wife that I am trying to sell it ?

I could tell you what I would pay to buy it, but it would upset the owner unneccesarily.

 

[N747JB]

My son sold a new Escape to a wonderful couple yesterday, they've been married 60+ years! He is 84 and I'm sure she's close to his age, they (he) restore and collect older cars, well his health isn't great, he's on oxygen full time, but both are still sharp as tacks! Anyway, I'm talking to the wife and their daughter about old cars etc, the wife has repeatedly asked him to thin the herd a bit, too many cars in the garage. He reluctantly agreed to sell a couple of them. She said she went into the garage the next day and found a cardboard, hand written for sale sign on two of the cars. Of course the garage doors are always closed, but at least they were for sale.
Everything will sell at the proper price if it's advertised and made available to the market. Not all of us like the market price, buying or selling, but the market is the market at any given time. My buddy was looking at a 182T, Vref on the one I found for him is $249K, 2007 model with G1000, Garmin autopilot etc, it's listed at $325K. A dealer has offered $275K and the guy won't take less than $300K, and I'm not sure he'd take that. So who's right and who's wrong? The BOOK says $250K, the market says $300K+

 

[rpadula]

I sold the Citation in March 2007, it was a little less than I wanted to take, but sometimes your first offer is your best offer. And this was our first legitimate offer, so I sold it and I'm very glad it sold when it did. I had no idea the airplane market was about to crash, but I'm happy I wasn't holding a high priced Citation II S/P when it did!

You are the genius for selling before the market cratered!

I need to be downgraded to lucky SOB who got out with only two pounds of flesh extracted (one from each butt-cheek)

P.S. Caught the tail end of the 680 remote on the radio a couple weeks back. Chuck and Chernoff were saying they were stoked to meet you.

 

[N747JB]

Yeah, it was a stroke of luck, I wish I had the insight to see the market 6 months ahead! Chuck does endorsements for us, both of them are great guys. I don't think I would want to argue sports with either one of them, it would be like discussing FAR's with some of the guys here!

You are the genius for selling before the market cratered!

I need to be downgraded to lucky SOB who got out with only two pounds of flesh extracted (one from each butt-cheek)

P.S. Caught the tail end of the 680 remote on the radio a couple weeks back. Chuck and Chernoff were saying they were stoked to meet you.

 

[rpadula]

Or it loses oil pressure 50hrs in.

OK, so basically we have a range of 0 to 550 hours of potential time until OH is needed.

It is a high time engine and there are rated pilots who weren't yet born when this engine was apart the last time.

Ooh scary! Given that engines shouldn't normally need to be taken apart until overhaul time, let's just make it a little less scary by saying it's 5 years past calendar time, if I did my math right on 1997->2014.

Yup, $2500 is going to get it inspected and resealed. If the current owner chose to spend that money, the $16,900 (last weeks quote for a McCauley deiced blackmack) risk that comes with the prop was off the table.

Thanks for the info. Seems like that would be a good deal to do the $2500 inspection.

However, you mention a fascinating word there - risk. Used airplanes are sold as-is, in the condition they are in at the moment money changes hands. Should the seller lower the price because of something that might happen in the future - just to reduce the risk to the buyer? And by how much? I'm curious to hear your reasoning on this. Most people pay in order to lay off risk onto another party. No such insurance exists for premature engine failure, so the only other option for the buyer to reduce risk upfront is to offer a lower dollar amount. However, that may result in zero risk, because he will receive no airplane.

I could tell you what I would pay to buy it, but it would upset the owner unneccesarily.

You're welcome to PM me. I promise I won't disclose the number to anyone.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Or it loses oil pressure 50hrs in. It is a high time engine and there are rated pilots who weren't yet born when this engine was apart the last time.

The exact same thing can happen to a brand-new engine. Is the risk higher with a higher-time engine? Yup... But that's why Vref et al take off $18/hr for time on the engine.

I would fly it like it is, but when it comes to selling, a KLN89B is ancient.

But I'd never get back what I put into it if I put something newer in - And you have to guess as to what people are going to want. 5-10 years ago, it was simple: Put in a Garmin 430. Done. Now, not so much: People still seem to want Garmin, but is the 430W enough, or does it need to be a 650 or 750? If I guess wrong, I've just wasted even more money.

Do you think if I put in a 750, GDL88, and G500 that I'd be able to sell it for $220K? All that plus a new engine for $270K? Doubt it. So what's the point?

I could tell you what I would pay to buy it, but it would upset the owner unneccesarily.

PM me, I'm curious.

 

[weilke]

But I'd never get back what I put into it if I put something newer in - And you have to guess as to what people are going to want. 5-10 years ago, it was simple: Put in a Garmin 430. Done. Now, not so much: People still seem to want Garmin, but is the 430W enough, or does it need to be a 650 or 750? If I guess wrong, I've just wasted even more money.

Do you think if I put in a 750, GDL88, and G500 that I'd be able to sell it for $220K? All that plus a new engine for $270K? Doubt it. So what's the point?

No point putting it in in anticipation of what the buyer wants, but your price has to reflect the absence of any of those goodies relative to other aircraft o the market that have them.

 

[gismo]

- your engine is in the last third of its life, yes I know 'it runs strong' and 'my mechanic says it has lot of time in it', but the last time the bottom end has been looked at Bill Clinton was running his re-election campaign.

I've always found it interesting that according to "the market", engine hours have virtually no effect on the aircraft value within the first and last third of the TBO range. Any engine less than 1/3 of the way to TBO is generally considered to be equal in value to any other engine at that stage in life. Similarly once an engine passes the 2/3rd mark it has little if any more value than one that's past TBO.

Besides the fact that TBO is a statistical number, often with little basis in reality it seems the notion that overhaul costs should be pro-rated for the expected life of the engine just doesn't work for most buyers.

 

[weilke]

I've always found it interesting that according to "the market", engine hours have virtually no effect on the aircraft value within the first and last third of the TBO range. Any engine less than 1/3 of the way to TBO is generally considered to be equal in value to any other engine at that stage in life. Similarly once an engine passes the 2/3rd mark it has little if any more value than one that's past TBO.

And that is where services like VRef and Blue Book fall short in that they dont take this buyer psychology into account. They try to model a non-linear process with a linear factor (I believe the blue book formula is factory OH list price / TBO=hourly writeoff).

 

[JoseCuervo]

And that is where services like VRef and Blue Book fall short in that they dont take this buyer psychology into account. They try to model a non-linear process with a linear factor (I believe the blue book formula is factory OH list price / TBO=hourly writeoff).

Once past 50.1% of TBO, then it is "almost run out", and valued accordingly.

 

[weilke]

Once past 50.1% of TBO, then it is "almost run out", and valued accordingly.

Depends on whether you are a buyer or seller

As a seller, it is a runout once it hits 100.1% of TBO and if you believe some sellers that point is at the 'never' level.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Depends on whether you are a buyer or seller

As a seller, it is a runout once it hits 100.1% of TBO and if you believe some sellers that point is at the 'never' level.

Oh yeah, definitely a "which side of the fence" valuation. There are some crazy high times out there with "good compression, runs strong" engines..... And likely accurate descriptions.

 

[danhagan]

Because it seems that nobody expects to pay the asking price. I would say that over 50% of buyers, the first question is "what's the lowest amount you'll take for it?" That's not how negotiation works.

Well, I'm not going to list it at the bare minimum price that we'd possibly take - Nobody wants to pay the asking price.

I actually did ... the AC was 1 week away from needing an annual. Seller agreed to conduct annual at a shop that specializes in the model he was selling. Seller agreed to repair/replace ANYTHING the shop could come up with including tires and pay to have a pilot deliver it there. Shop doing annual went DEEP and the bill was high ... I actually kicked in a little extra to the seller. Plane has been great.

 

[Cruiser]

Originally Posted by flyingcheesehead View Post
Because it seems that nobody expects to pay the asking price. I would say that over 50% of buyers, the first question is "what's the lowest amount you'll take for it?" That's not how negotiation works.

Well, I'm not going to list it at the bare minimum price that we'd possibly take - Nobody wants to pay the asking price.

Actually that scenario is kinda close for me. I don't like the squabbling/nitpicking back and forth of negotiation. I told the seller I wanted his plane and asked him to decide on the the very least amount of money he was willing to make a deal at. I told him I would either agree to the price or walk away, no counter offer.

We made a deal.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've always found it interesting that according to "the market", engine hours have virtually no effect on the aircraft value within the first and last third of the TBO range. Any engine less than 1/3 of the way to TBO is generally considered to be equal in value to any other engine at that stage in life. Similarly once an engine passes the 2/3rd mark it has little if any more value than one that's past TBO.

Besides the fact that TBO is a statistical number, often with little basis in reality it seems the notion that overhaul costs should be pro-rated for the expected life of the engine just doesn't work for most buyers.

That's an interesting observation Lance, and probably right on. Unfortunately, with an engine that's at 70% of TBO, that means the best thing to do with it would be to keep it in a partnership, fly it 'til the engine really does need an overhaul, do the overhaul, fly it 600 hours, and put it back on the market.

That'll take a while!

 

[timwinters]

Actually that scenario is kinda close for me. I don't like the squabbling/nitpicking back and forth of negotiation. I told the seller I wanted his plane and asked him to decide on the the very least amount of money he was willing to make a deal at. I told him I would either agree to the price or walk away, no counter offer.

We made a deal.

I use a similar strategy. "Give me your price, either I'll pay it or walk". I too hate haggling, I have better things to do with my time.