NPRM Could Add $210 to Cost of Pilot Certificates

[rstowell]

The Society of Aviation and Flight Educators (SAFE) is addressing a Notice of Proposed Rule Making that could add up to $210 to the cost of pilot certificates. On November 19, 2010, the FAA issued an NPRM entitled, Photo Requirements for Pilot Certificates (Docket No. FAA-2010-1127; Notice No. 2010-16). Key elements in this NPRM and in other documents include:

• A proposed fee to the FAA of $50 per new certificate and $25 per replacement.
• A requirement that student pilots wait 6-8 weeks to get a certificate before solo.
• A claim that the new certificate fee represents no net cost to society.
• An assertion that the proposed photo procedure is "in the interest of reducing burdens on the certificate holder..."
• A claim that foreign pilots holding U.S. certificates would incur no additional travel expense as a result of having to visit a testing center, FSDO, or DPE.
• An FAA estimated total cost of $718.7 million to implement photo certificates.

Taking all associated costs into account (e.g., FAA and testing center fees, pilot time, photo and travel expenses, etc.), the FAA estimates the financial burden on pilots to be $210 per new certificate. Under the current NPRM, flight instructors will have the added burden of needing to procure a new, $210 photo certificate every two years when they renew their CFIs.

The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act (IRTPA) now requires the FAA to issue pilot's licenses with photographs. According to concerned SAFE member Robert Hadow, “The FAA has a legal reason to replace the certificate system for the second time in six years, and apparently sees this as an opportunity to increase fees and staffing.” A flight school owner and instructor, Hadow added, “The aviation community needs to get engaged in this issue to get something that works, rather than a regression to a paper-based 8710 system requiring a physical visit to a FSDO or testing center.”

Failing to respond to the NPRM is likely to result in a process that adds up to $210 every time a pilot certificate or flight instructor certificate is issued. General comments are due at the Department of Transportation on or before February 17, 2011; however, comments related to data collection and cost need to be submitted no later than January 18, 2011.

SAFE is preparing an official response to the NPRM based on input from its membership. Pilots, flight schools, and other aviation organizations are urged to weigh in on this issue before the appropriate due dates as well.

NPRM – http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FAA-2010-1127-0001

 

[poadeleted20]

Where do you see anything about flight instructors having to get another photo pilot certificate every time they renew their CFI?

 

[fgcason]

Almost a billion $$$ to take tiny shoddy pictures of pilots, put it on a piece of paper and laminate the whole thing?

I will no longer feel bad about charging high prices for my photography.

Where do I apply to run the pilot photo operation? I'll even use studio lighting and give everyone a choice of backgrounds.

 

[JeffDG]

Where do you see anything about flight instructors having to get another photo pilot certificate every time they renew their CFI?

Page 9:

§ 61.6 Pilot certificate with photo and
photo requirements.
(a) Trigger-based implementation.
Except as provided in § 61.19(h)(2), after
[effective date of final rule], all persons
must apply for a pilot certificate with
photo and provide a photo that
conforms to the requirements prescribed
in paragraph (b) of this section when:
...
(2) Obtaining a new flight instructor
certificate;
(3) Renewing a flight instructor
certificate; or

 

[TMetzinger]

I think that what they are saying (in typical bad bureaucratese) is that you must get your photo pilot certificate (if you haven't already gotten one) when you apply for or renew your flight instructor certificate. You'd only have to submit a new photo every 8 years.

That said, this is in my opinion a prime example of Congress legislating a fix to a problem that isn't shown to exist (similar to the 1500 hr/ATP requirement for 121 pilots). I don't see that this makes things any better than they are today with a requirement for an airman to have a matching photo ID when he flies. But this isn't an NPRM saying "is this a good idea?", it's an NPRM saying "The law says we have to issue photo certificates - is this a good way to do it?"

My changes:
Unless the pilot certificate is going to become an acceptable form of ID like a "REAL ID", then there's no point in limiting it to 8 years. Make it good for 10 years for people under 30, and 25 years for people over 30, and you'll still have an ID that people can say "yep, that's you" since we don't change as much as we age. And put "not valid for identification" on it. That way a new pilot may end up renewing his photo maybe four times over his lifetime.

If there's no legislative mandate for plastic student pilot certificates with photos, KEEP the current system.

 

[JeffDG]

Here's the comment I just submitted:

Comment Tracking Number: 80bc6068
Submission of Photographs
I would like to suggest maintaining Aviation Medical Examiners (AMEs) in the mix, however, gathering of photographs should be shifted from them to the licensee.

I would suggest the licensees would be required to submit their photographs as part of the current TurboMedical process. This is an online system that permits applicants for an medical certificate to fill out their application online, and permit the AME to review and comment on the application before submitting it to the FAA. This would simply add a step for the AME to verify the photograph submitted in TurboMedical was indeed the airman examined. No additional equipment or requirements would be imposed upon AMEs to gather or upload photos into the system, and this verification would be a minimal additional burden upon them. The majority of active airmen are required to have medical exams at least every 5 years, well below the proposed 8 year validity of the photographs.

Similarly, Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) have an analogous application, IACRA, to interact with airmen seeking certificates. Again, the applicant would be responsible for having a photo taken, then uploading that photograph into IACRA. The DPE would, in the same manner as the AME above, simply need to validate that the airman examined was the same as the photo already uploaded into IACRA.

Student Certificates
My final comment relates to Student Pilot certificates requiring photographs. This requirement, in my opinion, imposes an undue burden for a certificate with limited privileges granted. An individual on a Student Pilot certificate is only permitted to fly with another certificated pilot. Their solo flight privileges require reauthorization every 90 days by a certificated CFI. They are, therefore, in frequent contact with known, already authenticated, individuals who have a responsibility to ensure safety

 

[poadeleted20]

I think that what they are saying (in typical bad bureaucratese) is that you must get your photo pilot certificate (if you haven't already gotten one) when you apply for or renew your flight instructor certificate. You'd only have to submit a new photo every 8 years.

I read it the same.

BTW, this "photo on pilot certificates" thing ain't going away, especially since Congressman Mica just became chair (as opposed to just ranking minority member) of the subcommittee under whose jurisdiction the FAA falls, and he's the one whose idea this was in the first place, and he's very much on the warpath about it. Only people who can change that are the voters of the 7th Congressional District of Florida.

 

[JeffDG]

I read it the same.

BTW, this "photo on pilot certificates" thing ain't going away, especially since Congressman Mica just became chair (as opposed to just ranking minority member) of the subcommittee under whose jurisdiction the FAA falls, and he's the one whose idea this was in the first place, and he's very much on the warpath about it. Only people who can change that are the voters of the 7th Congressional District of Florida.

Read through the public comments on the NPRM...most people seem to be of the impression that the FAA is initiating this photo-on-certificate thing...and that they are at liberty to not do it, in defiance to a clear Congressional mandate.

The comment I submitted stuck to some ideas to make it easier to manage for all involved.

 

[poadeleted20]

Read through the public comments on the NPRM...most people seem to be of the impression that the FAA is initiating this photo-on-certificate thing...and that they are at liberty to not do it, in defiance to a clear Congressional mandate.

...which will make their comments useless and potentially counterproductive. Better to spend their efforts on...

ideas to make it easier to manage for all involved.

...as you did.

 

[murphey]

All the acronyms are already on this. If you read the docket, it's a mandate from Congress and the FAA has no option. In fact, the FAA states in the evaluation that it's a waste of money, a waste of time but they have no option to do otherwise.

About the only recourse at this point is flood the members of the committees responsible for FAA, DHS, TSA with emails and faxes noting that even the FAA questions the efficacy of the program. With the caveat that having a photo on an ID (which, BTW may NOT be used as a Government-issued ID!) solves no problems.

 

[Tom-D]

And the AOPA is rolling over on this too.

 

[steingar]

And the AOPA is rolling over on this too.

Big surprise. I want my $20 back.

 

[Tom-D]

Big surprise. I want my $20 back.

I got my 25th last warning to renew to day.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

About the only recourse at this point is flood the members of the committees responsible for FAA, DHS, TSA with emails and faxes noting that even the FAA questions the efficacy of the program. With the caveat that having a photo on an ID (which, BTW may NOT be used as a Government-issued ID!) solves no problems.

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with this except for the fact that the photo on the certificate may not be used to satisfy any/all government issued photo ID requirements. The fees also seem much higher than need be, especially given the technology we now have. As Jeff mentioned in his NPRM comment, there are better ways to accomplish this that may include FAA MedXpress for photo verification via medical certificate issuance and renewals as well as IACRA/DPE verification on checkrides. To steal a phrase from Doc Bruce...sigh.

 

[tlglenn]

I sent this to my representative and senators in Congress (not that I'm hopeful, but I don't want them claiming ignorance later):

This is in regards to the new photo requirement for pilot certificates: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FAA-2010-1127-0001

Currently, pilot certificates do not have photographs, but pilots are required to carry valid government issued photo identification in order to exercise the privileges of a pilot certificate. Due to federal law passed by Congress the FAA is now required to include photographs on the pilot certificates themselves. This is a waste of time and money.

From the notice of proposed rulemaking: "Costs to pilots would sum to $445.8 million ($235.8 million, present value) over the above 20-year period. This includes the costs of the pilots providing hard copy photos and a Form 8710-1 to a portal designee, either a Knowledge Testing Center, Designated Pilot Examiner, or Flight Service District Office. These portals would incur costs of $33.2 million ($17.6 million, present value) to process this information and pass it on to the Airman Registry at the FAA. The FAA would incur costs of $239.8 million ($126.7 million, present, value) to process the certificates. Total costs, over 20 years, sum to $718.7 million ($380.1 million, present value)."

Given the current emphasis on fiscal responsibility I would like to see Congress repeal the mandate that the FAA require photos on pilot certificates. It does nothing to enhance national security because it is a redundant requirement. Pilots are already required to carry government issued photo identification with their pilot certificates. Pilot certificates without accompanying photo identification are invalid.

Thank you for your time.

 

[tlglenn]

I also commented on the rule itself touching on some of the same things others have mentioned here (e.g. using MedXPress, etc.). I also mentioned that the FAA should, if possible, access the Department of State's passport photo database so that pilots could avoid having to make in-person visits. I don't know how that will fly.

 

[murphey]

Specifically the act is titled

Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention ActIntelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act IRTPA § 4022(b).

As noted in the NPRM, the FAA has determined two photo identifications are unnecessary and do not serve a safety or security interest. It's a knee-jerk reaction, as was the creation of DHS.

 

[JeffDG]

I also mentioned that the FAA should, if possible, access the Department of State's passport photo database so that pilots could avoid having to make in-person visits. I don't know how that will fly.

What about pilots who don't have, and are not eligible for US Passports?

 

[pilot_dude]

Comment all you like, the change is going to happen. I'm focusing my next 30 seconds on terminating my auto renewal for AOPA and then moving on to things I can actually change. My socks come to mind.

 

[poadeleted20]

Comment all you like, the change is going to happen.

Agreed, but if folks can come up with better/faster/cheaper ways to get that picture on that certificate that still comply with the law, those suggestions may well be taken.

 

[Tom-D]

I read it the same.

BTW, this "photo on pilot certificates" thing ain't going away, especially since Congressman Mica just became chair (as opposed to just ranking minority member) of the subcommittee under whose jurisdiction the FAA falls, and he's the one whose idea this was in the first place, and he's very much on the warpath about it. Only people who can change that are the voters of the 7th Congressional District of Florida.

Isn't wonderful how one person in congress can dictate these days, and all 535 people roll over in the name of safety. when we weren't the problem in the first place.

write Patty Murray, she is our senator and is the chair of the DOT subcommittee and has the power to say no to this.

 

[JeffDG]

Comment all you like, the change is going to happen. I'm focusing my next 30 seconds on terminating my auto renewal for AOPA and then moving on to things I can actually change. My socks come to mind.

You're kinda late...this change became law many years ago, the FAA has been dragging their feet implementing it, however.

 

[pilot_dude]

You're kinda late...this change became law many years ago, the FAA has been dragging their feet implementing it, however.

Point taken.

 

[flyersfan31]

 

[RotorAndWing]

You're kinda late...this change became law many years ago, the FAA has been dragging their feet implementing it, however.

The FAA doesn't have a budget and is still operating under a Continuing Resolution. In order for the FAA to comply with the requirements Congress must provide the funding, which they haven't as of yet.

So the "feet dragging" has been by Congress, not the FAA.

 

[JeffDG]

The FAA doesn't have a budget and is still operating under a Continuing Resolution. In order for the FAA to comply with the requirements Congress must provide the funding, which they haven't as of yet.

So the "feet dragging" has been by Congress, not the FAA.

The law in question has been on the books for quite some time, long before the current status under a CR began.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The law in question has been on the books for quite some time, long before the current status under a CR began.

The FAA has been under CR for a few years now. The FAA cannot appropriate money, it's budget comes from Congress. The FAA can put request in to fund programs but Congress has to approve and provide funds.

In this case Congress has never acted upon this and still hasn't. If the money is not appropriated in the 112th Congress then nothing will happen.

 

[flyersfan31]

Hell, I'm glad the FAA hasn't jumped on this. Someone's looking out for us....

 

[tlglenn]

What about pilots who don't have, and are not eligible for US Passports?

Do they (not U.S. citizens) have photos associated with their visas or green cards? If not (or are U.S. citizens without passports) then they'll have to submit photos using one of the other methods.

 

[flyersfan31]

Why don't they just implant the f$%#ing datachips in our arms and be done with it. Then we won't even need to worry about photo id.

 

[JeffDG]

Do they (not U.S. citizens) have photos associated with their visas or green cards? If not (or are U.S. citizens without passports) then they'll have to submit photos using one of the other methods.

Me, I have neither a visa (under 8 CFR 212.1(a)(1)) nor a green card.

 

[gprellwitz]

Me, I have neither a visa (under 8 CFR 212.1(a)(1)) nor a green card.

Driver's license? I seem to recall granting permission on my medical for them to access all data on my driver's record, which would seem to include the photo.

 

[tlglenn]

I sent this to my representative and senators in Congress (not that I'm hopeful, but I don't want them claiming ignorance later)...

So I got this from one of my U.S. Senators (Jon Kyl):

Thank you for contacting my office with your concerns.

In an effort to be of help, I have taken the liberty of forwarding your correspondence to officials at the Federal Aviation Administration to ask that your comments be given appropriate consideration.

Please feel free to contact me if I may be of assistance with any other federal matters.

The staffer (initials "ab") is either clueless or was giving me a brush-off.

 

[sba55]

This is completely out of control!

There's what, less than 1MM active FAA certificates in use? How can it POSSIBLY cost $800 dollars per certificate to put a picture on it? I bet a private company could do it for 100X less. $7MM should be more than enough.

 

[Eamon]

I got my 25th last warning to renew to day.

LOL Tom. I think they spend more in mailing to me than what I give them. What a waste of paper. I always renew within 30 days & have for 13 yrs.
Why do they bother to try to entice me back when I have never left?

 

[wsuffa]

"Anything for security"

 

[JesseD]

This is completely out of control!

There's what, less than 1MM active FAA certificates in use? How can it POSSIBLY cost $800 dollars per certificate to put a picture on it? I bet a private company could do it for 100X less. $7MM should be more than enough.

Because they'll be using some congresscritter's uncle's roommate's cousin's friend. This happens in business quite a bit too. The last job I was on was hilarious, and pathetic. Someone had gone with the CEO's nephew for network stuff, paper cert guy that didn't do any real installs or configs, but had a 4 year degree. What a farking mess.

 

[tlglenn]

The staffer (initials "ab") is either clueless or was giving me a brush-off.

Well, it wasn't a brush-off. The FAA responded to Senator Kyl's office saying they would add my comments to the docket and Kyl's office forwarded a copy of the FAA letter to me. So at some point I'll have to talk to "ab" and provide some education since he or she was trying to be helpful, but didn't quite understand the issue.

Senator McCain's office? Not a word from them.

 

[flav8r]

I got my 25th last warning to renew to day.

[OFF TOPIC]
Wow lucky you...
I got a notice in the mail today threatening to send my failure to renew to a collection agency.

I am so scared to answer my phone or check my mail.
[/OFF TOPIC]

Correct me if I'm mistaken but I thought that my FL license was valid for ten years with no requirement to renew the image.

 

[flav8r]

I also commented on the rule itself touching on some of the same things others have mentioned here (e.g. using MedXPress, etc.). I also mentioned that the FAA should, if possible, access the Department of State's passport photo database so that pilots could avoid having to make in-person visits. I don't know how that will fly.

The system currently used at some if not all commercial carriers utilizes the passport photo for computerized jumpseat authorization and verification.