Notams down?

midwestpa24 said:
it gathers the NOTAMs for everything within 20 miles of the two airports and your route.
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I’m in central Florida. When I used FF I’d get Orlando Int’l and Tampa Int’l. A northbound flight adds Jax, and a southbound flight gets me Miami. I’d rather just pick my own alternates and get those alone without the extraneous clutter.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I will also add in regards to Plain Language versus ALL CAPS ABBR, the current technology does allow for that. When we input a NOTAM through NOTAM Manager, we are using a series of pre-built scenarios with pre-filled drop down boxes to select the information for the NOTAM. The system then displays for us the NOTAM in FAA, ICAO, and Plain Language formats. The technology is there, but it is a matter of the end user's source of information in how it is being delivered.
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Little bit of drift here:

Let's say an ILS is NOTAM'd OTS from 1200-1600, and at 1500 it comes back on line. What is the process to have the NOTAM changed and how long does that typically take?
 
Sluggo63 said:
Little bit of drift here:

Let's say an ILS is NOTAM'd OTS from 1200-1600, and at 1500 it comes back on line. What is the process to have the NOTAM changed and how long does that typically take?
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Depends on the person/persons involved. The scenario you picked is a little more complicated, as the ILS is owned and operated by the FAA. The FAA Tech Ops technician has to coordinate shutdowns with their Coordination Center, which is the entity that actually issues/cancels the NOTAM. If the system is ready to return to service ahead of schedule, the technician just has to make a phone call to the CC, and they can cancel the NOTAM early. If in their judgement it is close enough (horseshoes and hand grenades right?), they may just let it expire.

For airport based NOTAMs, runways, taxiways, etc., it is just a matter of logging into the NOTAM Manager website and cancelling the NOTAM, done in seconds. Again since it requires human intervention, it is all up to how fast the individual moves to get the NOTAM cancelled. The human element in the process is honestly the biggest variable. Some people and some airports are much more proactive, especially if a Part 139 Commercial airport. Some smaller airports simply never issue NOTAMs, either because they don't know how or just don't care to.
 
Nick Geber said:
I hate it when they change the term to make the Acronym. While I’m all for inclusion and recognize the many women in aviation, we’re all still Hu-man beings, right?

Notice to Air Mission is just bad English.
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I've been advocating "NOtice To Aircrew Members' for a while, but my suggestion hasn't gotten off the ground, so to speak.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I will also add in regards to Plain Language versus ALL CAPS ABBR, the current technology does allow for that. When we input a NOTAM through NOTAM Manager, we are using a series of pre-built scenarios with pre-filled drop down boxes to select the information for the NOTAM. The system then displays for us the NOTAM in FAA, ICAO, and Plain Language formats. The technology is there, but it is a matter of the end user's source of information in how it is being delivered.
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Exactly. One does not change the data source for how the end user's application wants the display presentation to be.
 
Palmpilot said:
I've been advocating "NOtice To Aircrew Members' for a while, but my suggestion hasn't gotten off the ground, so to speak.
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And that would have been a fine solution!
Notice to Aviators would have been good, had the FAA not been so wedded to keeping the NOTAM acronym at all costs.
 
GaryM said:
And that would have been a fine solution!
Notice to Aviators would have been good, had the FAA not been so wedded to keeping the NOTAM acronym at all costs.
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NOtice To Aviators, Mkay?

Screenshot_20230112-123800-786.png
 
GaryM said:
And that would have been a fine solution!
Notice to Aviators would have been good, had the FAA not been so wedded to keeping the NOTAM acronym at all costs.
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What about the aviatrices? Just swapping one non-problem for another.
 
Palmpilot said:
I've been advocating "NOtice To Aircrew Members' for a while, but my suggestion hasn't gotten off the ground, so to speak.
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GaryM said:
And that would have been a fine solution!
Notice to Aviators would have been good, had the FAA not been so wedded to keeping the NOTAM acronym at all costs.
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In addition to the gender neutrality of the change to "Air Mission" was the fact that NOTAMs also apply to UAS/drones and this also indicates that the NOTAMs will apply to them although they aren't "Airmen."

P.S. I get that they still get an Airman's Certificate. Standby for Change 2, I suppose.
 
Since they're picking and choosing what letters to use for the NOTAM acronym anyway, they could have just changed it to "Notice to All Manufactured-flying-things", and it would include everyone and everything!

:D
 
5544271.jpg
 
At our restaurant last night I noticed the new signs on the restrooms : Us and Them

I guess the tape drive failed in the Commodore 64....
 
Sluggo63 said:
Little bit of drift here:

Let's say an ILS is NOTAM'd OTS from 1200-1600, and at 1500 it comes back on line. What is the process to have the NOTAM changed and how long does that typically take?
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How do you know that it came back online at 1500? Just because there's a signal there doesn't mean it's accurate/usable. Such was/is the case for many ground-based navaids in Florida after Hurricane Ian. Sure, some of the navaids were still putting out signals after the hurricane, but they weren't pointed in the right directions. Even 100+ days later, there's still many ILS and VORs U/S down here, some which are outputting a signal. Could you use them despite them being NOTAM'd U/S? Sure. But no guarantees on where you'll end up.
 
midwestpa24 said:
If the system is ready to return to service ahead of schedule, the technician just has to make a phone call to the CC, and they can cancel the NOTAM early. If in their judgement it is close enough (horseshoes and hand grenades right?), they may just let it expire.
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This is kind of the crux of my question.

AirHare said:
How do you know that it came back online at 1500?
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Tower tells me it's back up and running.

AirHare said:
Just because there's a signal there doesn't mean it's accurate/usable. Such was/is the case for many ground-based navaids in Florida after Hurricane Ian. Sure, some of the navaids were still putting out signals after the hurricane, but they weren't pointed in the right directions. Even 100+ days later, there's still many ILS and VORs U/S down here, some which are outputting a signal. Could you use them despite them being NOTAM'd U/S? Sure. But no guarantees on where you'll end up.
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I get that. I wouldn't use a NAVAID that was NOTAM'd OTS unless getting confirmation it's accurate.

This whole academic scenario came from a discussion I was having with another airline captain buddy of mine.

His real life scenario was that he was enroute to his destination with a NOTAM for the CATII ILS and RVR being OTS for the preferred runway until 2 hours after his planned arrival. On the way there, the weather started going down, and he contacted his dispatcher to get an update on the weather and ILS status. The dispatcher wrote back and said that they called the tower at the destination and the tower said that the RVR and ILS would be operational by the time my buddy arrived.

This is where he and I disagreed. He said that even if tower said the RVR and ILS were operational, he wouldn't use them unless they confirmed that the NOTAM was removed. I said that I didn't care if the NOTAM was still there or not, as long as tower confirmed that they were operational I would use it.

There was a little more nuance, but that was the gist.

To boil it down and make it simple, I gave the same scenario with a runway closure. Runway is closed for rubber removal and scheduled to be back up at 0700L. I'm getting there at 0630L, and tower tells me the runway is now open. I ask tower "I had a NOTAM that the runway was closed to 7, confirm it's open." Tower says "yes, it's open." I land. My buddy would ask if the NOTAM has been removed from the system, and if tower says the NOTAM is still there, but the runway is open, he's not landing until the NOTAM is gone.

I guess the piece of the puzzle we're missing is how long it takes for something like that to run through the NOTAM system. It sounds like it varies depending on what it is and who has control over that NOTAM.

Now we don't know if he's an anal pilot that has no common sense, or am I reckless cowboy pilot with no regard for NOTAMs. :dunno:
 
Sluggo63 said:
I guess the piece of the puzzle we're missing is how long it takes for something like that to run through the NOTAM system. It sounds like it varies depending on what it is and who has control over that NOTAM.
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Ok your scenario gives a little context to your original question.

From a pure NOTAM technology point of view, NOTAM distribution occurs in just a few seconds. It is almost instantaneous, like the transmission time of an email or text message. The short coming is the human input into the system, which may be directly from one person, or require a phone call or two to get to the right person.

I would tend to believe the tower controller, but the hanging NOTAM at the same time would also give me pause. IF something were to happen, especially involving the issue the NOTAM was warning you about, that would certainly be thrown back at you. The only difference is the controller may be a "contributing factor" in your accident report. I suppose you would just have to assess the risk involved and find a mitigation. You break out on final and see an X on the runway, it may still be closed. But that situation SHOULDN'T happen.

In a perfect scenario, the person cancelling the NOTAM is the same person telling the tower the equipment or runway is returned to service, and should happen within a few minutes of each other.

In your real world scenario you wrote, "The dispatcher wrote back and said that they called the tower at the destination and the tower said that the RVR and ILS would be operational by the time my buddy arrived." It's possible the controller had some inside knowledge of the situation and knew it would be up early. Often times when issuing a NOTAM, we will extend the end time beyond our anticipated return to service, just to ensure the NOTAM doesn't expire while we are still working on it. I might know the fix will take me an hour, but issue a NOTAM for two hours just to be safe. We can always cancel it early, but NOTAMs do not auto-extend.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Ok your scenario gives a little context to your original question.

From a pure NOTAM technology point of view, NOTAM distribution occurs in just a few seconds. It is almost instantaneous, like the transmission time of an email or text message. The short coming is the human input into the system, which may be directly from one person, or require a phone call or two to get to the right person.

I would tend to believe the tower controller, but the hanging NOTAM at the same time would also give me pause. IF something were to happen, especially involving the issue the NOTAM was warning you about, that would certainly be thrown back at you. The only difference is the controller may be a "contributing factor" in your accident report. I suppose you would just have to assess the risk involved and find a mitigation. You break out on final and see an X on the runway, it may still be closed. But that situation SHOULDN'T happen.

In a perfect scenario, the person cancelling the NOTAM is the same person telling the tower the equipment or runway is returned to service, and should happen within a few minutes of each other.

In your real world scenario you wrote, "The dispatcher wrote back and said that they called the tower at the destination and the tower said that the RVR and ILS would be operational by the time my buddy arrived." It's possible the controller had some inside knowledge of the situation and knew it would be up early. Often times when issuing a NOTAM, we will extend the end time beyond our anticipated return to service, just to ensure the NOTAM doesn't expire while we are still working on it. I might know the fix will take me an hour, but issue a NOTAM for two hours just to be safe. We can always cancel it early, but NOTAMs do not auto-extend.
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Thanks. That adds a bunch of clarity to our question. I appreciate it.
 
AirHare said:
How do you know that it came back online at 1500? Just because there's a signal there doesn't mean it's accurate/usable. Such was/is the case for many ground-based navaids in Florida after Hurricane Ian. Sure, some of the navaids were still putting out signals after the hurricane, but they weren't pointed in the right directions. Even 100+ days later, there's still many ILS and VORs U/S down here, some which are outputting a signal. Could you use them despite them being NOTAM'd U/S? Sure. But no guarantees on where you'll end up.
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People don't id navaids?
 
Sluggo63 said:
...To boil it down and make it simple, I gave the same scenario with a runway closure. Runway is closed for rubber removal and scheduled to be back up at 0700L. I'm getting there at 0630L, and tower tells me the runway is now open. I ask tower "I had a NOTAM that the runway was closed to 7, confirm it's open." Tower says "yes, it's open." I land. My buddy would ask if the NOTAM has been removed from the system, and if tower says the NOTAM is still there, but the runway is open, he's not landing until the NOTAM is gone.

I guess the piece of the puzzle we're missing is how long it takes for something like that to run through the NOTAM system. It sounds like it varies depending on what it is and who has control over that NOTAM.

Now we don't know if he's an anal pilot that has no common sense, or am I reckless cowboy pilot with no regard for NOTAMs. :dunno:
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I would download a recording of the tower conversation from LiveATC after the flight.
 
Sluggo63 said:
his is where he and I disagreed. He said that even if tower said the RVR and ILS were operational, he wouldn't use them unless they confirmed that the NOTAM was removed. I said that I didn't care if the NOTAM was still there or not, as long as tower confirmed that they were operational I would use it.
...
I gave the same scenario with a runway closure. Runway is closed for rubber removal and scheduled to be back up at 0700L. I'm getting there at 0630L, and tower tells me the runway is now open. I ask tower "I had a NOTAM that the runway was closed to 7, confirm it's open." Tower says "yes, it's open." I land. My buddy would ask if the NOTAM has been removed from the system, and if tower says the NOTAM is still there, but the runway is open, he's not landing until the NOTAM is gone.
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I'm a low-time guy, so take this with a grain of salt: To me, those are two different situations and I'd have two different responses. For the former, I wouldn't use the ILS unless the NOTAMs had been cleared. For the second scenario, I would have no problem landing with the NOTAM still in place. Why the difference? Mainly, visual. Tower should be able to see the runway and verify that it's clear. ILS isn't something they can easily verify from the cab -- that has to be flown and verified. It is an interesting question though. As far as how long it takes to process, once the appropriate people put in to cancel the NOTAM, it should take less than a minute for the change to go through. Probably seconds for most things. It's not like the old days where everything was done over the phone :cough:Southwest::cough:.

Bob Noel said:
People don't id navaids?
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Oh, some of the navaids here were still happily belting out the correct Morse code, but that doesn't mean they're giving you accurate info after a hurricane strikes, let alone a Cat 4 hurricane which practically parked itself over the area for 2-3 days straight. Antennas and dishes get bent, turned around, ripped off, etc. Water gets into antennas, wires, and equipment sheds. That 60 degree radial may no longer be at 60 degrees.
 
AirHare said:
I'm a low-time guy, so take this with a grain of salt: To me, those are two different situations and I'd have two different responses. For the former, I wouldn't use the ILS unless the NOTAMs had been cleared. For the second scenario, I would have no problem landing with the NOTAM still in place. Why the difference? Mainly, visual. Tower should be able to see the runway and verify that it's clear. ILS isn't something they can easily verify from the cab -- that has to be flown and verified. It is an interesting question though. As far as how long it takes to process, once the appropriate people put in to cancel the NOTAM, it should take less than a minute for the change to go through. Probably seconds for most things. It's not like the old days where everything was done over the phone :cough:Southwest::cough:.

Oh, some of the navaids here were still happily belting out the correct Morse code, but that doesn't mean they're giving you accurate info after a hurricane strikes, let alone a Cat 4 hurricane which practically parked itself over the area for 2-3 days straight. Antennas and dishes get bent, turned around, ripped off, etc. Water gets into antennas, wires, and equipment sheds. That 60 degree radial may no longer be at 60 degrees.
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Aren't they supposed to remove the Morse code ID when they NOTAM the navaid out of service?
 
Palmpilot said:
Aren't they supposed to remove the Morse code ID when they NOTAM the navaid out of service?
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Still requires someone to tell it to. Communication lines were probably down to prevent doing it through the remote monitor, and techs probably weren't able to reach the site to do it manually.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Still requires someone to tell it to. Communication lines were probably down to prevent doing it through the remote monitor, and techs probably weren't able to reach the site to do it manually.
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How do you communicate a NOTAM to the FAA without communication lines?
 
Palmpilot said:
How do you communicate a NOTAM to the FAA without communication lines?
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I was referring to the NAVAID still transmitting the Morse code. Someone has to take it off line typically. Under normal conditions there is a monitoring system back to Tech Ops that will alert if it detects a fault in the signal, but last I knew it required manual intervention to actually shut it down and take it offline.
 
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