Not giving up when the mains touch

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C_Parker

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Having a struggle with a bad habit that crops up every time I start to get rusty. It's a primacy problem.

I have the habit of wanting to relax as soon as the mains touch and not holding the nosewheel up. It takes a bit of effort in my nose heavy 182.

What have YOU done to break yourself of this habit? Any tricks?
 
Primacy should have prevented that, but since it didn’t, exercise (and maybe some negative reinforcement with a 2-D-cell Mag Lite) are probably the only ways to fix it.
 
C_Parker said:
Having a struggle with a bad habit that crops up every time I start to get rusty. It's a primacy problem.

I have the habit of wanting to relax as soon as the mains touch and not holding the nosewheel up. It takes a bit of effort in my nose heavy 182.

What have YOU done to break yourself of this habit? Any tricks?
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Go get some tailwheel training. That will, hopefully, instill some habits about continuing to fly the plane all the way to the tiedowns.

Also, are you trimmed for final approach speed?
 
jimhorner said:
Go get some tailwheel training. That will, hopefully, instill some habits about continuing to fly the plane all the way to the tiedowns.

Also, are you trimmed for final approach speed?
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Agree with the trim. I fly a 182. When it’s been awhile since last flight I might get a bit lazy on the trim on final and fight it to runway then as soon as mains touch down relax a bit too much.
That’s the key. Keep trimming. Get aggressive with that
 
Thanks for the quick responses, guys. In response to trim, my 182 doesn't have enough trim authority to trim for airspeed on final, my trim wheel is usually buried on base.
 
C_Parker said:
Thanks for the quick responses, guys. In response to trim, my 182 doesn't have enough trim authority to trim for airspeed on final, my trim wheel is usually buried on base.
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That’s odd. I don’t remember ever flying one rigged that way. I do have CRS now though so there’s that...
 
It's mental. When I was a young student, I was pretty sloppy about the centerline. My instructor took me to a 40' wide strip and it improved. We practiced there for an hour or two and my accuracy got better. When we got back to SAT where the runway was huge, I let myself get off centerline and my instructor gave me a whale of talking to that it wasn't that I wasn't capable, but that I didn't care.

You apparently know mentally that you need to hold the wheel off, you need to will the correct response a bit more.
 
Mine is the F model, small elevator...

I come in with power and cut it during the flare
 
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Check the trim rigging. I found countless Cessna control systems out of rig. Mechanics often just make adustments or repairs without following the manuals or TCDS.

The old 182s tended to slam the nose down on landing. I think the later models had the mains located a bit farther forward.
 
RyanShort1 said:
It's mental. When I was a young student, I was pretty sloppy about the centerline. My instructor took me to a 40' wide strip and it improved. We practiced there for an hour or two and my accuracy got better. When we got back to SAT where the runway was huge, I let myself get off centerline and my instructor gave me a whale of talking to that it wasn't that I wasn't capable, but that I didn't care.

You apparently know mentally that you need to hold the wheel off, you need to will the correct response a bit more.
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This.

You have to force yourself to break the mental habit. Flying a tailwheel helps in a sense of requiring you to keep flying the airplane all the way to the tie downs, but if you don't mentally demand the correct action in YOUR airplane, then tailwheel won't help you when you go back to your own plane.

Just keep telling yourself the consequence of relaxing too soon could be a bent firewall and hold yourself to that.
 
C_Parker said:
Thanks for the quick responses, guys. In response to trim, my 182 doesn't have enough trim authority to trim for airspeed on final, my trim wheel is usually buried on base.
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As mentioned, check the trim rigging and if that's good time for a case of oil in the baggage compartment. Our 182 lands much better with a little baggage.
 
I always intentionally employ aerodynamic braking when landing to save the brakes, which get a workout anyway during taxi in a Grumman. I make it a game to see how long I can hold the nose up after landing. I've got 5300 feet, so runway length is not an issue. If you land too hot or descend too fast, you can't keep the nose from slamming down. Do it just right, and you land on the mains and the nose stays in the air.
 
C_Parker said:
Thanks for the quick responses, guys. In response to trim, my 182 doesn't have enough trim authority to trim for airspeed on final, my trim wheel is usually buried on base.
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Make sure your CG is actually in the CG range for the airplane. This means weigh it, not just do the calculations.
even if in CG range you may want to put 50lbs back in the baggage compartment.

Then practice soft field landings. Go look up the price of a new propeller and then imaging landing on a Loose gravel strip and you want to keep your propeller as high off of the ground as possible to prevent rock chips. This means coming in probably no more than 20 degrees flaps, with quite a bit of power (at least after the round out). If you have enough runway touch down on the mains, roll down the runway a several hundred feet and then take off using the soft field technique without ever touching nose wheel on the runway.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Nothing wrong with trim rigging...every 182 I flew was nose heavy .
 
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Doug Reid said:
Nothing wrong with trim rigging...ever 182 I flew was nose heavy .
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I agree with that but to not have enough trim on final?? Seems kinda odd.
Our club 182 bent firewall with someone not respecting the heavy nose at 1N7. I was fortunate to learn early from a good instructor. “Don’t let it land...”
 
Good habit that will bust it: never taxi without the control wheel all the way back. Then on landing it will be unnatural to be wheels down without it back. The benefit is that you will always be in “back country” mode and will always be protecting the nose wheel. This worked for me. I learned it from Todd Peterson.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Good habit that will bust it: never taxi without the control wheel all the way back. Then on landing it will be unnatural to be wheels down without it back. The benefit is that you will always be in “back country” mode and will always be protecting the nose wheel. This worked for me. I learned it from Todd Peterson.
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Yep ... I always keep the stick all the way back on a tail wheel landing ... unless it's a wheelie!
 
pigpenracing said:
Go find a instructor and fly a Pitts! It will teach you to fly the airplane until its in the hangar!
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As others have said, any tailwheel will do.

RyanShort1 said:
It's mental. When I was a young student, I was pretty sloppy about the centerline...
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I used to think I was pretty diligent about this. Then I got a tailwheel instructor that insisted I land on the center of the centerline. That sharpened things up.
 
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C_Parker said:
Thanks for the quick responses, guys. In response to trim, my 182 doesn't have enough trim authority to trim for airspeed on final, my trim wheel is usually buried on base.
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Everytime someone tells me how nose heavy a 182 is, I ask the same question. Have you done a W&B? Are you forward CG or right at the limit for forward CG?
 
There's a reason Cessna made the elevator bigger 3 years after introducing the widebody model.
 
The first time I landed a 182, everything felt great right up until the nose dropped on landing...I was told lots of firewalls have been damaged on account of this nose heavy problem. The airplane flies great otherwise. Add a case of oil and a toolbox to the baggage compartment...keep a little power thru flare till touch down. Practice..
 
C_Parker said:
Thanks for the quick responses, guys. In response to trim, my 182 doesn't have enough trim authority to trim for airspeed on final, my trim wheel is usually buried on base.
Click to expand...

That doesn't sound right for any aircraft. There is either a rigging problem, CG issue, or a problem with the trim system. Even at full forward CG in my aircraft I can still trim to approach speed.
 
C_Parker said:
Having a struggle with a bad habit that crops up every time I start to get rusty. It's a primacy problem.

I have the habit of wanting to relax as soon as the mains touch and not holding the nosewheel up. It takes a bit of effort in my nose heavy 182.

What have YOU done to break yourself of this habit? Any tricks?
Click to expand...

That’s are common pilot issue in 182s and you may need both hands during the flair.
 
As a CFI, I would address this by having the student practice some touch-and-goes without letting the nosewheel touchdown.
 
chemgeek said:
I always intentionally employ aerodynamic braking when landing to save the brakes, which get a workout anyway during taxi in a Grumman. I make it a game to see how long I can hold the nose up after landing. I've got 5300 feet, so runway length is not an issue. If you land too hot or descend too fast, you can't keep the nose from slamming down. Do it just right, and you land on the mains and the nose stays in the air.
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Yes, use the time-honored "try not to let the plane land" technique. Good for slow-flight skills and will encourage nose-up attitude on landing.

I struggled with plonking the nose wheel down too early in training as well...a feeling that I wanted to finish the landing ASAP and reconnect with mother Earth. I overcame it with some discipline, and, like Chemgeek, just making a game out of seeing how long I could keep the nose wheel aloft.

Try this, at a sleepy non-towered. Land short, let the mains touch, then feed back in a little power to purposely keep the nose wheel aloft for half the remaining length of the runway. It's kinda fun!! And Evel Knievel will salute from the grave.

With my RV-9A, I pretend the nose gear is a fragile composite of balsa wood and Ming vase (in actuality, it's a little stronger). My aircraft has a lot of elevator area and throw, so even in solo configuration I can keep the nose up until about 30 knots, which seems like walking speed from inside. As others have said, a more rearward cg helps a lot; my landings are almost always better with a passenger. At solo weight, I have to rather quickly apply back stick, so sometimes if I'm too brusque with control input the mains will hop off the runway for a second before settling back down.
 
chemgeek said:
That doesn't sound right for any aircraft. There is either a rigging problem, CG issue, or a problem with the trim system. Even at full forward CG in my aircraft I can still trim to approach speed.
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The 206 runs out of trim when lightly loaded.
 
Can someone explain how "fly a tail wheel aircraft" helps to prevent someone from letting the nose fall prematurely on a nose wheel aircraft? Other than the obvious, "It doesn't have one." answer.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Can someone explain how "fly a tail wheel aircraft" helps to prevent someone from letting the nose fall prematurely on a nose wheel aircraft? Other than the obvious, "It doesn't have one." answer.
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The taildragger teaches you to fly the thing as long as it's moving and even while sitting still in a strong wind. Up-elevator is common after a three-point touchdown, for instance, to get that steerable tailwheel some traction so it will steer as rudder authority is lost as the airplane slows. Learning wheel landings teaches very gentle touchdowns. It will bounce you back up if you bang it on.

I taught taildragger to students after they got their PPLs in 172s. It was almost like having to learn to fly all over again. They weren't used to using the controls so much, especially the pedals. Landing in crosswinds was much more critical, since the three-point attitude means a high AoA that will want to lift the upwind wing much more than in a trike, so you use the ailerons---or else. It teaches precision and awareness. Discourages complacency. And the older designs like Citabrias or Champs or some others aren't nearly as stall-spin resistant as a 172, so it teaches coordination, soo, and we'd do that at altitude, trying the skidding base-to-final descending turn to see how the thing will bite the unwary. Students didn't skid anymore after that.

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Timbeck2 said:
Can someone explain how "fly a tail wheel aircraft" helps to prevent someone from letting the nose fall prematurely on a nose wheel aircraft? Other than the obvious, "It doesn't have one." answer.
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as others have said it just really drives into the soul control of the plane. It gets you out of the operating a piece of machinery mindset to a “strap your wings on” mindset...

I learned more in 3 months flying my underpowered TW than I had previously learned in a decade of a 180hp 172 usually flying solo or two ppl...

When I take the 172 out on occasion now it just seems so simple to peg it every time. The 172/182 are such amazing designs to have every bad habit of an airplane knocked out of em- ya don’t know what ya don’t know till ya fly one that doesn’t have Cessnas land-omatic gear..
 
Timbeck2 said:
Can someone explain how "fly a tail wheel aircraft" helps to prevent someone from letting the nose fall prematurely on a nose wheel aircraft? Other than the obvious, "It doesn't have one." answer.
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I'm a newbie tailwheeler but I've learned that what Dan says above pretty much explains it. There's a lot about keeping the stick in your gut when on the ground, touching down lightly when landing, along with having and keeping control of the airplane until the noise maker stops and the parking brake is set.

I wanted to order one of these tee shirts but I'd be embarrassed to be wearing it when my nosedragger friends come out to help me get the plane out of the weeds after a ground loop. Hasn't happened so far but if I were wearing this shirt ...

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Dan Thomas said:
...I taught taildragger to students after they got their PPLs in 172s. It was almost like having to learn to fly all over again. They weren't used to using the controls so much, especially the pedals...
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Huckster79 said:
as others have said it just really drives into the soul control of the plane. It gets you out of the operating a piece of machinery mindset to a “strap your wings on” mindset...

I learned more in 3 months flying my underpowered TW than I had previously learned in a decade of a 180hp 172 usually flying solo or two ppl...
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^^^This

Learning to fly a taildragger late in life was almost like learning to fly all over again for me. Wish I had done my PPL in a taildragger.

And it's not just taxi, take-offs and landings that benefit. There's no Frise differential ailerons on my taildragger, unlike the Cessna 150 of my youth. If you just think about starting to roll the airplane without getting on the rudder the nose is moving the wrong way immediately.

For me the Husky is about the closest thing to a motorcycle with wings.
 
Yes, my initial flight training was in a Citabria. I like its handling better than the C-172’s and got a T-shirt that says “Real Pilots Fly Taildraggers”. My first landing was a beauty, but that was just luck.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the nose strut length varied over the production run of most Cessna models. Seems like the newer the model the more likely the nose strut doesn't extend as far, that added with maximum flaps of 30 vs 40 makes rollout and nose contact a whole different experience.

Cessna 182 fly a lot better either low on fuel or with crap in the back, move the CG away from the forward limit.
 
Thanks guys, lots of great feedback.

Interestingly enough, I focused really hard on keeping the yoke back on my last flight and it actually didn't change a thing. The noise wheel still comes down firmly, as the plane settles onto the runway it's running out of elevator authority anyways. Still going to break the habit, but I was surprised that it literally did nothing.
 
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