North up vs track up

No. Modern technology displays vector data the maker of the software cane up with, usually, and they also came up with arbitrary zoom levels to “declutter” at.

There have been a number of ASRS reports of pilots being zoomed out and their vector stuff not showing them critical data that’s right there on a normal chart.

Often there’s absolutely nothing published about what disappears at what zoom levels either, so even if you’re trying to be careful about it and study up, you won’t find what the programmers’ completely arbitrary rules are.

And then there’s the differences in rules between manufacturers.

Like ... on the GNX stuff, Garmin likes to remove traffic completely at an arbitrary range. That one is actually documented.

iPad stuff documented? Good luck. :)
Yeah, and if you ignore stuff on a chart it doesn’t help either. All you describe is very clearly defined in the settings, you simply have to learn how it works.
 
The entire premise of a moving map is that the "ground" moves. Why would you discard that premise in one axis?

No, the moving map refers to you moving along the map and changing the reference to keep you centered on the display , just like with a paper map, using your finger to track your position on the map, refolding the map when you get to the edge.


Tom
 
Does your airplane fly off the screen or does the map move so that your plane stays on it? The map moves. Which is equivalent to the "ground" moving in your world view. So why is it ok for the ground to move left and right, up and down, but not ok for it to rotate? Makes no sense.

Your premise is that the ground should not move, but that's EXACTLY what is happening in a moving map display. Hence the name "moving map".

No, my electronic maps shift the map&plane together to keep it centered, just like shifting a paper chart.


Tom
 
Yeah, and if you ignore stuff on a chart it doesn’t help either. All you describe is very clearly defined in the settings, you simply have to learn how it works.

For every manufacturer and iPad app, if you change equipment often.

It’s a trap for inexperienced users of all of them.

A chart, your eyeballs are going to see the item (in north up or track up) coming towards your aircraft and have a chance of it registering in your brain.

When software makes it disappear there’s literally no way for your brain to know you’re missing something.

Maybe you missed it waaaaay back in pre-flight planning. Oh, there’s big towers north of the airport, and your forecast was to land to the north not land to the south... but now you’ve picked up the AWOS and they’re landing south.

I’ve seen someone do exactly the above. I was looking at a depiction of a real chart on my iPad, the console and their iPad showed absolutely nothing.

*Eventually* their subscription to terrain warnings would have kicked in, but they were flying fat dumb and happy right at the 1000’+ tower on my real sectional, and had zero clue they were on a course to center punch the thing.

VFR Charts are information dense and have decades of design behind what’s shown and what’s not.

Vector stuff? A twenty-something who’s never flown an airplane put rules in the code, maybe without any oversight or a document to work from. If they had a document, their company may not share it with pilots. Or they might share it and the majority of pilots won’t read it.

How many Foreflight questions have you seen here over the years that were easily answered and in the table of contents of the user guide? Lots. Lots and lots.

Pilots don’t read avionics or iPad software user manuals as a general rule. We have a bunch of nerds here who do, but in the general pilot population? Nope.

Many are simply better off displaying a real chart in whatever orientation they want than operating whiz bang vector stuff that they think they understand but didn’t even read up on what is displayed at each zoom level.

The other one I’ve seen: Pilots screw heavily with default settings in rental aircraft GPS units. Not just north/track but they go “customize” the crap out of the thing and leave it that way for the next pilots. I’ve only ever seen ONE pilot print out the defaults and make it part of their preflight to check every one of them.

The rental GPS fleet really needs a “factory defaults” button or a “fleet defaults” where the operator can set, document, communicate to everyone, and have a known one button way back to their baseline settings. And it should be lockable with a code.

The GPS companies haven’t quite gotten there yet in their heads that airplanes are flown multiple people. They haven’t even done “personal setting profiles” yet for multiple owner aircraft.

They’ll get there eventually. Or not. But it’s a standard UI problem on shared equipment in far more than just aviation. Even the copy machine has “clear all settings” and has for over a decade. :)
 
For every manufacturer and iPad app, if you change equipment often.

It’s a trap for inexperienced users of all of them.

A chart, your eyeballs are going to see the item (in north up or track up) coming towards your aircraft and have a chance of it registering in your brain.

When software makes it disappear there’s literally no way for your brain to know you’re missing something.

Maybe you missed it waaaaay back in pre-flight planning. Oh, there’s big towers north of the airport, and your forecast was to land to the north not land to the south... but now you’ve picked up the AWOS and they’re landing south.

I’ve seen someone do exactly the above. I was looking at a depiction of a real chart on my iPad, the console and their iPad showed absolutely nothing.

*Eventually* their subscription to terrain warnings would have kicked in, but they were flying fat dumb and happy right at the 1000’+ tower on my real sectional, and had zero clue they were on a course to center punch the thing.

VFR Charts are information dense and have decades of design behind what’s shown and what’s not.

Vector stuff? A twenty-something who’s never flown an airplane put rules in the code, maybe without any oversight or a document to work from. If they had a document, their company may not share it with pilots. Or they might share it and the majority of pilots won’t read it.

How many Foreflight questions have you seen here over the years that were easily answered and in the table of contents of the user guide? Lots. Lots and lots.

Pilots don’t read avionics or iPad software user manuals as a general rule. We have a bunch of nerds here who do, but in the general pilot population? Nope.

Many are simply better off displaying a real chart in whatever orientation they want than operating whiz bang vector stuff that they think they understand but didn’t even read up on what is displayed at each zoom level.

The other one I’ve seen: Pilots screw heavily with default settings in rental aircraft GPS units. Not just north/track but they go “customize” the crap out of the thing and leave it that way for the next pilots. I’ve only ever seen ONE pilot print out the defaults and make it part of their preflight to check every one of them.

The rental GPS fleet really needs a “factory defaults” button or a “fleet defaults” where the operator can set, document, communicate to everyone, and have a known one button way back to their baseline settings. And it should be lockable with a code.

The GPS companies haven’t quite gotten there yet in their heads that airplanes are flown multiple people. They haven’t even done “personal setting profiles” yet for multiple owner aircraft.

They’ll get there eventually. Or not. But it’s a standard UI problem on shared equipment in far more than just aviation. Even the copy machine has “clear all settings” and has for over a decade. :)
We shouldn’t use computers, cars, phones, because they can be misunderstood and used wrong. Lol
 
We shouldn’t use computers, cars, phones, because they can be misunderstood and used wrong. Lol

What a stupid comment. I didn’t say that.

I said a large portion of the pilot population doesn’t understand some things that are far from standardized in the user interfaces for vector graphics toys, and that many would be better served by using official charts. I also mentioned that numerous safety reports by the pilots themselves indicate it’s a safety problem.

Considering they don’t typically file ASRS reports unless they think they might get violated for something — it shows the seriousness of the UI problems in vector graphics systems.

@EdFred is right, real charts are still technically better.

The gadget kids haven’t quite gotten their toys up to a standard that can compete with a VFR chart. Especially not without terrain and obstacle warnings, which many stupidly charge extra for. The one feature really required to get close to a regular chart’s real world functionality.

Just because something is “techy” doesn’t mean it’s actually better.
 
And here I thought it's been a while since we've had a high wing vs low wing thread...
 
And here I thought it's been a while since we've had a high wing vs low wing thread...
it was already decided in the last thread that low wing is the right wing
 
i have always been a North Up kinda guy... but last few flights i have been flying track up and i think i like it more... what do you prefer?
I don't have much experience with moving maps, but with paper ones I preferred track up when enroute and north up during instrument approaches. Why would electric displays be any different? Track up keeps fixes oriented to your heading, but the advantage is lost when you're maneuvering around a lot while on an approach. Sooner or later you'll be out of step and all confused. As to the mental processing power required, with track up you have to have more of it in order to read the words printed vertically and letters sideways, but I can handle it. YMMV. :)
 
Two displays, two orientations. Track North on my iFly which shows sectionals and TACs (and my magenta line!), and track up on the EFIS moving map...it shows a lot of towns, roads, etc. that don't show up clearly on the aeronautical charts.
 
I don't have much experience with moving maps, but with paper ones I preferred track up when enroute and north up during instrument approaches. Why would electric displays be any different? Track up keeps fixes oriented to your heading, but the advantage is lost when you're maneuvering around a lot while on an approach...
:yeahthat:
I like track up to easily visualize things when enroute, and switch to north up when near my destination so I can easily read frequencies, etc., and better visualize headings. It's easy to switch with just a button press in Avare.
 
North up...chicks dig it.

Not sure dude.... usually most chicks I hang around with can’t tell left from right and can’t wrap their head around “why are we going straight up when the car/plane is going right” . Well honey, first of all that’s left....




I need to hang around with different chicks
 
Track up, cuz that's how the low level ONC flip charts were, as well as the filmstrip map on the HI, and so I learned to read in multiple dimensions.

But I can go North Up when required. AC / DC, I swing both ways. Where it's at. Worldly, I am.
 
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Somebody needs to put us out of our misery. Let me try.

I pray to God, Allah, and Vishnu that the liberal democrats in Congress pass a law that even our orange president can agree with and sign that revokes the first amendment as it pertains to track up vs north discussions on POA.
 
Somebody needs to put us out of our misery. Let me try.

I pray to God, Allah, and Vishnu that the liberal democrats in Congress pass a law that even our orange president can agree with and sign that revokes the first amendment as it pertains to track up vs north discussions on POA.
"REQUEST DENIED"
 
Technically Siva has more stripes on his shoulder than Vishnu
North up wasn’t good enough for you, now you’re gonna start a “which of the 10,000 Indian gods is the best” argument?

PS> Rama is best
 
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North up wasn’t good enough for you, now you’re gonna start a “which of the 10,000 Indian gods is the best” argument?

PS> Rama is best

Lol lol lol .... well technically there are (were?) 32, 000,000 of em ....

Back to track up
 
Track up always on the 530W. Same on Garmin Pilot on the tablet almost always in flight, only use north up when flight planning.
 
With paper maps, I will deride you relentlessly if you turn the map to navigate. But with modern technology it's just silly not to present the data so that left is left and right is right and in front of you is in front of you.

What? Aint'cha ever heard of "driving the paper bus?"

I have flown with a few a lesser developed humans who could not use either a paper map of a MFD map display in both modes.

Here's a good way to visualize it. In my previous aircraft, we could put the maps or imagery under the HSD (Horizontal Display). That way, you could "see" the map features and your course line as if they were under you. There is no way to do that with North up (unless you are weird).
 
Lol lol lol .... well technically there are (were?) 32, 000,000 of em ....

Back to track up
Well, if you wanna get technical on me, Rama and Vishnu are the same. :D
 
Track up.

North is NOT actually up. It’s just north. We are accustomed to seeing north at the top of the map, but truly you can orient the map in any direction and be correct.... as long as Maine is north of Florida.
 
Depends what I'm looking at. If it's a physical chart or an electronic presentation of such, I use north up. If it's an electronic map display (where everything looks nice no matter what orientation), I'll fly track or perhaps "course" up. I've never had any problem switching between the two.
 
I need three items:

1. A chart

2. A straightedge

3. A pen with magenta ink

The real question, is how to I orient the chart?
 
Damn I miss eman. I'm sure he'd have imparted some unique wisdom on lines, and how they should be oriented for proper consumption.


As to the question at hand, the weather radar in my plane is "track up". So is the nav during cruise. ;)
 
We already decided north up was the proper way...there was a “checkmate” that should have ended this, pretty sure that’s an Internet rule.


Tom
 
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