NORDO - Wrong runway

Tom-D said:
That is what is wrong with todays pilots, we make rules "See and avoid" and every body has their own way. And if you don't do it their way, you are the one that's wrong.
I guess segmented circles don't mean anything any more.
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Maybe I'm missing it but...how did segmented circles enter the conversation?
 
Warmi said:
It is not about Nordo being illegal , which is not, but rather about being reckless - of course radios can fail and people can make mistakes but so what .... it is not a binary choice, if more people use radio and communicate their position , it is just yet another tool in the toolbox as far as situational awareness is concerned.

If it makes sense for controlled space why it wouldn’t make sense for everywhere else ... and frankly, given a choice, I would rather deal with a raging idiot blabbering on comms rather than the same raging idiot silently going about doing whatever reckless thing he is about to do - at least I can hear him miles away and get the f*** out of there ...
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You forgot "stupid". And frankly, I don't care if NORDO scares you. . .buy a boat. Or avoid airports frequented by NORDO aircraft.

I do respect that YOU think NORDO is sketchy. So I won't characterize you as "stupid", or OCD, over a statistically minor risk. Your call - just leave some room for differing priorities. Safety isn't anyone's top priority, else why leave the womb?

I concede that it would be marginally safer if we all were talking. I just don't care about it enough to demand NORDO be banned - I like seeing old, odd, unusual, or unique airplanes. And sometimes I like the quiet.

Hell, I have two radios - my ambition in retirement is to buy something certified without an electricsl system, and drill holes, sans xpndr or comms. I might velcro an iPad to the panel. . .
 
chartbundle said:
And at the end of the day "5 miles north" tells me way more than over Les Schwab, or WalMart or whatever other made-up un-published reporting point you're using locally.
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The problem with that is they are not made up. When you don't use them you will have problems like has been mentioned here already.
normal pattern entry is already defined well in the AIM.
 
Tom-D said:
The problem with that is they are not made up. When you don't use them you will have problems like has been mentioned here already.
normal pattern entry is already defined well in the AIM.
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Show me an official FAA publication stating "Les Schwab" as a reporting point at Prineville. It's not on the sectional, it's not in the Chart Supplement, it's not on the airports 'official' web page. For the purposes of a transient pilot, it's simply made up. Equally useless would be 'facebook'. On the other hand you say '5 north' and I can glance at even a paper sectional and have a pretty good idea of where a plane is.
 
chartbundle said:
Show me an official FAA publication stating "Les Schwab" as a reporting point at Prineville. It's not on the sectional, it's not in the Chart Supplement, it's not on the airports 'official' web page. For the purposes of a transient pilot, it's simply made up. Equally useless would be 'facebook'. On the other hand you say '5 north' and I can glance at even a paper sectional and have a pretty good idea of where a plane is.
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Pretty obvious where it is, even for me. The locals sure knew where it was. you could have asked. Every thing isn't written in black and white, that is why the rule is written as it is.
 
Warmi said:
It is not about Nordo being illegal , which is not, but rather about being reckless - of course radios can fail and people can make mistakes but so what .... it is not a binary choice, if more people use radio and communicate their position , it is just yet another tool in the toolbox as far as situational awareness is concerned.
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See and avoid is a rule. Talking on the radio is a suggestion.
If it makes sense for controlled space why it wouldn’t make sense for everywhere else ... and frankly, given a choice, I would rather deal with a raging idiot blabbering on comms rather than the same raging idiot silently going about doing whatever reckless thing he is about to do - at least I can hear him miles away and get the f*** out of there ...
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Outside of A, talking on the radio isn't required in most controlled airspace.
 
Sundancer said:
You forgot "stupid". And frankly, I don't care if NORDO scares you. . .buy a boat. Or avoid airports frequented by NORDO aircraft.

I do respect that YOU think NORDO is sketchy. So I won't characterize you as "stupid", or OCD, over a statistically minor risk. Your call - just leave some room for differing priorities. Safety isn't anyone's top priority, else why leave the womb?

I concede that it would be marginally safer if we all were talking. I just don't care about it enough to demand NORDO be banned - I like seeing old, odd, unusual, or unique airplanes. And sometimes I like the quiet.

Hell, I have two radios - my ambition in retirement is to buy something certified without an electricsl system, and drill holes, sans xpndr or comms. I might velcro an iPad to the panel. . .
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That’s so noble and almost ....rebellious ... of course you forget that you are already a FAA ***** where a simple act of taking a pill that would be mean nothing to anyone outside of aviation , can make same bureaucrat pay you dearly or take your love of old planes away altogether in the name of ... yeah, marginally better safety.

So yeah, you are already a safety whore - whether you like it or not .
 
PaulS said:
Turn into the upwind leg…., depending on the reason for the go around, I typically sidestep to the right 1 or 2 hundred feet so I can see the runway, then fly to the end of the runway before turning crosswind, most importantly, climbing to PA. That said, I've been asked for immediate turns on go arounds by the CT, and occasionally a 360 back to short final. If you are uncomfortable with an instruction like that, say unable, that you would like a more standard pattern. It's a high workload time for you and you need to fly the airplane, then make sure you understand the instruction if at a towered airport before accepting it. If you are too busy, a quick "stand by" until things settle down is ok, but keep in mind there may be a good reason for an instruction.
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Thanks for the tips! One thing that I need to understand better is that about PA, specially regarding crosswind leg. It’s been a long while since I’ve flown. Weather mostly, but also one trainer only often in service, and lack of alternate instructors when I could have flown. But I’m still at the stage where I’m not seeing everything on takeoff, such as...

I haven’t noted altitude on takeoff at the end of the runway point. Our airport isn’t busy enough and have never seen a plane on upwind leg while taking off, but it’s always worried me not understanding exactly how crosswind works when a plane is taking off. If it is at PA on CW which at out airport is 1500 feet MSL, 1446 AGL, does it mean that any airplane taking off should not takeoff short, and climb too quickly or is that not an issue?

I know, see and avoid, but procedurally I’m just unsure of the mechanics of it.

Even after that, my instructions have always been, we take off, climb to 1500 then turn 90 deg and continue climb to 2200. Find it strange that it isn’t a definite point, what if we climb better on one day than another?
Or is that sufficient because the differences between conditions isn’t that big a diff?

We haven’t gone over this in briefings which are kind of short I feel. I plan on asking next flight but thought to hear from you all.
 
midlifeflyer said:
@LongRoadBob, keep in mind that Norwegian procedures at airports can be markedly different than in the US.
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Thanks, yes, I am aware, but generally we are pretty closely related in regulations. EASA, and all.
Of course, I will directly question my CFI on this, but just any explanation of how it is in the US on these points would help a lot.

It may be these points are totally obvious to experienced pilots.
Maybe the first question is a non issue as the pilot taking off MUST be aware there is a plane for example on upwind, or crosswind leg, so...you wait to takeoff until it has passed. Or..I'm totally wrong and it is ok to take off when a plane is on crosswind?
Just would like to get confirmation, input how it is where POA folks are flying.

The second question is still a puzzle to me. If altitude alone is the deciding factor for turn out, or distance from the end of the runway, or a combination, so if you hit 1500 MSL, and are still not X distance from the runway, you just level off until you turn, etc.
 
Warmi said:
Still, flying Nordo is reckless and stupid - of course see and avoid is the rule but every other bit of additional situational awareness helps and having and using comms definitely helps ...
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What are you supposed to do in an airplane with no electrical system? Some of us are NORDO 100% of the time and seem to fare just fine using our eyeballs and following the rules of the road.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Thanks, yes, I am aware, but generally we are pretty closely related in regulations. EASA, and all.
Of course, I will directly question my CFI on this, but just any explanation of how it is in the US on these points would help a lot.

It may be these points are totally obvious to experienced pilots.
Maybe the first question is a non issue as the pilot taking off MUST be aware there is a plane for example on upwind, or crosswind leg, so...you wait to takeoff until it has passed. Or..I'm totally wrong and it is ok to take off when a plane is on crosswind?
Just would like to get confirmation, input how it is where POA folks are flying.
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You see the traffic and make a judgment whether there is enough time to depart and get out of the way or wait. It's the same thing you do when stopped at an intersection in your care and decide when it is safe to cross. In both cases, it takes some experience to develop and the decision might be different on different days. And for different pilots. I've seen pilots who are ready to push the throttle forward when they roll onto a runway. I've seen others who are still completing their before takeoff checks.
The second question is still a puzzle to me. If altitude alone is the deciding factor for turn out, or distance from the end of the runway, or a combination, so if you hit 1500 MSL, and are still not X distance from the runway, you just level off until you turn, etc.
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Dunno. Is this a published procedure? Is it applicable to all airports or just one? Is it flight school policy or a universal SOP? is it to avoid noise-sensitive areas or obstructions?

Keep in mind that even with international standardization there are differences, particular in this area. The US and Canada are very close in many ways. But nontowered airport procedures, as an example, have a number of differences.
 
Hacker said:
What are you supposed to do in an airplane with no electrical system? Some of us are NORDO 100% of the time and seem to fare just fine using our eyeballs and following the rules of the road.
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Carry a portable.

I agree with you, but lack of electrical is not an excuse.
 
LongRoadBob said:
...I haven’t noted altitude on takeoff at the end of the runway point. Our airport isn’t busy enough and have never seen a plane on upwind leg while taking off, but it’s always worried me not understanding exactly how crosswind works when a plane is taking off. If it is at PA on CW which at out airport is 1500 feet MSL, 1446 AGL, does it mean that any airplane taking off should not takeoff short, and climb too quickly or is that not an issue?

I know, see and avoid, but procedurally I’m just unsure of the mechanics of it.

Even after that, my instructions have always been, we take off, climb to 1500 then turn 90 deg and continue climb to 2200. Find it strange that it isn’t a definite point, what if we climb better on one day than another?
Or is that sufficient because the differences between conditions isn’t that big a diff?

We haven’t gone over this in briefings which are kind of short I feel. I plan on asking next flight but thought to hear from you all.
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I don't know how it is in Norway, but for the U.S., the recommendations for traffic pattern operations are covered in AIM section 4-3-3 and the figures in that section. The variations in climb rate are not an issue because you're not required to turn crosswind as soon as you reach a particular altitude. The AIM says that if you're remaining in the pattern, you turn crosswind "beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude." If you get to pattern altitude before the end of the runway, you just level off at pattern altitude and wait until the end of the runway before turning crosswind. If a plane that is remaining in the pattern takes off ahead of you, then you may have to further delay your crosswind turn in order to avoid overtaking them or cutting them off.

In summary, the legs of a pattern don't have to be flown at precise locations. Avoiding collisions is the first priority, and everything else is adjustable as needed to meet that goal.
 
My uncontrolled airport is often pretty active with skydivers, gliders and local training flights doing T&G's. I can't recall the last time I've seen anyone around there NORDO. Even the ultra-lights have radios. I started flying in 1969 in a J3. No radio, no headset, heck we weren't smart enough to even use ear plugs but these days with all of the tech advancements over the past 50 years, who's flying around without a radio?

Show of hands - how many here in this thread are actually operating NORDO and what's the main reason?
 
Salty said:
Carry a portable.

I agree with you, but lack of electrical is not an excuse.
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Oh, it wasn't an "excuse" -- it was a statement.

So, no...no handheld, thanks. I'll just use my eyeballs and the rules of the road.
 
Silvaire said:
Show of hands - how many here in this thread are actually operating NORDO and what's the main reason?
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No electrical system. Headset for noise attenuation only.

I also don't have a transponder...or ADS-B.
esl2t5.jpg
 
I’m not going to get involved in the pizzing match over who was at fault, but every time I see this thread pop up in new posts, I always think to myself that the title should read, “NORDO - Different Runway”.
 
Silvaire said:
Show of hands - how many here in this thread are actually operating NORDO and what's the main reason?
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The two occasions I remember doing it were because I was inadvertently tuned to the wrong frequency.
 
Silvaire said:
Show of hands - how many here in this thread are actually operating NORDO and what's the main reason?
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I have been due to a recent frequency change for an airport, and again because of a radio failure. The point is, whether you believe in NORDO or not, it does happen even incidentally. Therefore you need to rely on your eyes and not your ears. There may be someone out there NORDO, who is totally unaware they are NORDO.
 
Warmi said:
That’s so noble and almost ....rebellious ... of course you forget that you are already a FAA ***** where a simple act of taking a pill that would be mean nothing to anyone outside of aviation , can make same bureaucrat pay you dearly or take your love of old planes away altogether in the name of ... yeah, marginally better safety.

So yeah, you are already a safety whore - whether you like it or not .
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Wrote that in a hurry, huh?
 
PaulS said:
" Lol sure, I'll go around for that Fokker!!
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"There were FOKKERS everywhere," said Captain Swen, the Norwegian Fighter Pilot being interviewed.
Interviewer: For those of you who don't know F.o.k.k.e.r is a German fighter airplane, right Captain Swen?
"Ya dat is korrect, but these Fokkers ver Messerschmidts!"
 
My request of hands was meant for those intentionally flying NORDO, not inadvertent instances. As I said in 1969 we did it because there wasn’t any alternative but it seems those doing it nowadays is all just about attitude. There appears to be no actual viable reason or excuse given the available options.

So in the case of “see and avoid” the NORDO pilot is basically saying that if you see me stay out of my way because I’m not going to tell you what I’m going to do which may sound selfish but if he is strictly adhering to traffic pattern rules and flying a yellow airplane it shouldn’t be a problem.
 
I've done it by just shutting down the radios & taking off my headset; usually weekday flying, down low, low traffic volumes. I wouldn't do it in an airport environment, even on a slow day. Though I may be a stupid, reckless, whore-*****, since I can announce, I do. But flying a true NORDO airplane, I wouldn't have an issue - I'm not telling you "stay out of my way because I'm not telling. . . " you my intentions - I'll enter the pattern and traffic flow in a standard fashion, looking out for you, as you're supposed to do, as well.

Basically, doing what you're doing, just not talking about it - being NORDO doesn't mean I'm gonna suddenly fly inverted opposite traffic, or do an overhead 360 break with others in the pattern.

Are you often encountering NORDO operators? I don't see (don't hear?) it all that often. If I had a Cub, no electrical system, I probably wouldn't bother with a hand-held; also probably wouldn't bum-rush a very busy uncontrolled field, either. Nuance to this, of course; others may follow the rules to the letter, and show up NORDO with 10 planes in the pattern - the rules allow it. And the odds are with us all having dinner at home that night. But there is some added risk, and that's the environment you entered into - the rules aren't a secret.
 
Well that was my original question because I can’t recall the last time I’ve encountered anybody with no radio in the pattern and I mean Cubs, gliders and ultralights, you name it. Pretty much everybody has a radio of some sort these days and everyone wears headsets. It’s not 1970 anymore.
 
Most pilots in the patterns are mindless lemmings. I can't tell you the number of times I've "suggested" we actually use a runway that was in to the wind or compliant with the calm wind procedures or not into the setting sun at certain times of day when the winds were calm.
 
I don't see the issue.
Every time you step in your car I'd say there's 100 times the potential for a collision. You've got multi ton vehicles going wildly different speeds merely feet away, yet no radio.

This won't be a popular opinion but I thing the ones that complain about nordo are heads down pilots. To busy playing with all their gizmos to look outside.
 
flyingron said:
Most pilots in the patterns are mindless lemmings. I can't tell you the number of times I've "suggested" we actually use a runway that was in to the wind or compliant with the calm wind procedures or not into the setting sun at certain times of day when the winds were calm.
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It's the same thing you see on the road when there are two turn lanes with 10 cars in one and 1 car in the other.
 
Silvaire said:
Well that was my original question because I can’t recall the last time I’ve encountered anybody with no radio in the pattern and I mean Cubs, gliders and ultralights, you name it. Pretty much everybody has a radio of some sort these days and everyone wears headsets. It’s not 1970 anymore.
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You should come out to the boonies more often.
 
Silvaire said:
Well that was my original question because I can’t recall the last time I’ve encountered anybody with no radio in the pattern and I mean Cubs, gliders and ultralights, you name it. Pretty much everybody has a radio of some sort these days and everyone wears headsets. It’s not 1970 anymore.
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None of the planes who've almost run me over in a glider were NORDO. I guess it's giving them the benefit of the doubt to say they didn't know I was there. It's happened when I was NORDO and it's also happened when I was making position reports but they weren't listening. In either case, the only thing that could have made the situation better would be them using their eyeballs.
 
1. If we're honest, there's not a pilot here who hasn't been told of other aircraft in the area, looked for it intently but just couldn't find it. And that's when we're told that it's there. See and avoid ...it's just simply one more tool in a toolbelt.

2. You know a better tool? (and I'm not talking Tim here ;) ) A RADIO!

3. I've got no beef with NORDO. I can work with them, don't argue with them, even like one or two of them. And I understand how they feel on a lazy Sunday at a lonely airport that might see a plane or two that day. But it's not for me. I want every opportunity to avoid a collision.

4. The big sky theory holds water. There aren't many collisions because it really is a big sky, and when you're talking traffic patterns most (*cough* some) of us are able use common sense on picking the right runway.

A little off-topic...I hadn't had my cert. long when I flew to an unfamiliar airport in another state. Picked up the weather, chose the runway into the wind, made the radio calls, entered the pattern. I'm on final when a NORDO plane pulls onto the other end of the runway. I go around, come in, and the guy's just doing some T&Gs and when he comes in he gives me an ass chewing. "Unless the wind is strong, we don't back-taxi around here! It clogs up the runway!" Being a new pilot I thought it was just one more thing I didn't know about. It was months before I figured out that particular airport must have just been filled with morons. I haven't been back there since, but every now and then I wonder if they've ever had any accidents because of that.
 
For the record I'm not the one complaining about anything, just making the observation that, unlike 1970, NORDO traffic these days is virtually non-existent and I think the reason is that because of technology it's no longer necessary. In a J3 Cub in 1970 you didn't have a choice, now you do and having a radio simply gives you more information and broadens your scope of awareness. There are really no down sides to it.

and BTW Tom, when I say NORDO I mean not having a radio so I'm not including those who have a radio but don't talk on it.
 
Silvaire said:
and BTW Tom, when I say NORDO I mean not having a radio so I'm not including those who have a radio but don't talk on it.
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Result being the same. ??
 
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