NORDO - Wrong runway

SbestCFII said:
This may or may not offend someone, but NORDO in the 21st century should be defined as "reckless dumb-ass." My base is a very active uncontrolled field, and even with that, as long as everyone listens, makes proper reports, and exercises basic aeronautical courtesy, everyone can usually get what they want and get it safely.
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You realize NORDO is not always a choice. Radios can and do fail, sometimes with no indication. Sometimes someone is accidently on the wrong frequency. Or even with radios, pilots sometimes don't even know where they are. You can't be dependent on the radio for traffic avoidance. As someone else pointed out, it's SEE and AVOID, not HEAR and AVOID.
 
Salty said:
I occasionally fly at a field with lots of unusual operations. (KZPH) Gyrocopters, ultralights, gliders, and one of the biggest skydive centers out there. It’s a challenge to keep track of everything that’s going on with people falling out of the sky, gliders stretching to make it back home, twin turbine skydive planes dropping in from 13,000 feet to pick up another load as quick as possible, gyros and ultralights that never seem to be in the standard pattern.....

I’ve had a twin otter take off the other direction both below me, and above me while landing a glider at that field. I can’t say I like it, but I also can’t say it was “unsafe” either.

The bottom line is you need to be watching all the time and do what it takes to keep that margin of safety. You could have seen the landing aircraft and sidestepped.

I’d take it as a learning experience. Sometimes crap happens and you are the only one able to stop the chain of crap before someone gets hurt - even if it wasn’t your fault.
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there was a flight instructor at my club whose famous line was, "it wasn't your fault, but it is your problem."
 
SbestCFII said:
This may or may not offend someone, but NORDO in the 21st century should be defined as "reckless dumb-ass." My base is a very active uncontrolled field, and even with that, as long as everyone listens, makes proper reports, and exercises basic aeronautical courtesy, everyone can usually get what they want and get it safely.
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It's especially unfortunate to read this coming from an experienced instructor. There's nothing reckless about being NORDO where no radio is required. However it is reckless to assume everyone has a radio where no radio is required.
 
"YOU MUST DO THINGS MY WAY OR YOU ARE CARELESS AND RECKLESS Z0MG!!!!!"

I don't know how many times I've recommended people NOT use certain instructors because of that sort of attitude.

Something about northbound and a southbound horse.
 
which begs the question: Is this a roto-craft that should follow roto-craft traffic patterns?
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Albeit it can land with a really short rollout, it cannot, however, hover to land so it must compete with left hand traffic on base and final... Just ask'n because recently we had 3 or 4 airplanes converging from several different directions for a left downwind, and then one of these jumps into the mix with a call for a right downwind for the same runway... UGH! I decided to hang out about 5 miles away until the circus was over...
 
FlySince9 said:
which begs the question: Is this a roto-craft that should follow roto-craft traffic patterns?
View attachment 72522

Albeit it can land with a really short rollout, it cannot, however, hover to land so it must compete with left hand traffic on base and final... Just ask'n because recently we had 3 or 4 airplanes converging from several different directions for a left downwind, and then one of these jumps into the mix with a call for a right downwind for the same runway...
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The answer is yes, it is a rotorcraft and they can follow rotorcraft traffic patterns. Our airport has a lot of gyro training and they choose to follow the standard traffic pattern and I think it's safer.

If they fly an opposite pattern, the FAA says:

AC 90-66B 12.1 Rotorcraft 12.1.3 In the case of a gyrocopter approaching to land, the gyrocopter pilot should avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft before making a turn to final for the runway in use to avoid turning in front of another aircraft on final approach.
 
FlySince9 said:
which begs the question: Is this a roto-craft that should follow roto-craft traffic patterns?
View attachment 72522

Albeit it can land with a really short rollout, it cannot, however, hover to land so it must compete with left hand traffic on base and final... Just ask'n because recently we had 3 or 4 airplanes converging from several different directions for a left downwind, and then one of these jumps into the mix with a call for a right downwind for the same runway... UGH! I decided to hang out about 5 miles away until the circus was over...
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The answer can be found in a couple of places...Part 1:
Rotorcraft means a heavier-than-air aircraft that depends principally for its support in flight on the lift generated by one or more rotors.
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Also, 61.5(3) defines Rotorcraft ratings, for which Gyroplane is an clouded.
 
FlySince9 said:
which begs the question: Is this a roto-craft that should follow roto-craft traffic patterns?
View attachment 72522

Albeit it can land with a really short rollout, it cannot, however, hover to land so it must compete with left hand traffic on base and final... Just ask'n because recently we had 3 or 4 airplanes converging from several different directions for a left downwind, and then one of these jumps into the mix with a call for a right downwind for the same runway... UGH! I decided to hang out about 5 miles away until the circus was over...
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i'm a chicken. i'll do 360's several miles out if i'm at a "pilot controlled" field and it turns to crap like that.
 
Warmi said:
Still, flying Nordo is reckless and stupid - of course see and avoid is the rule but every other bit of additional situational awareness helps and having and using comms definitely helps ...
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Just a few miles from my home airport is a busy sod strip full of planes with no radios. Tail dragged, acro, gliders and jump planes.

When you I there, the only plane you hear is the jump planes. In 39 years of flying in this area, There has never been an accident involving two aircraft inflight. That should tell you something.
 
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FlySince9 said:
which begs the question: Is this a roto-craft that should follow roto-craft traffic patterns?
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The reg doesn't call out rotorcraft, just helicopters and powered parachutes:

14 CFR 91.126
...
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and​
(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.​
 
I've re-read the thread, and think that the guy doing touch and go's took off into traffic on final.
When doing touch and go's you do not automatically have the right of way to take off.

It's up to you to insure the departure route is clear.
 
MIFlyer said:
i'm a chicken. i'll do 360's several miles out if i'm at a "pilot controlled" field and it turns to crap like that.
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I was out one day going into a (new to me) field where there were between 1 and 3 "red and white skywagons" with apparently no tail numbers, and people calling "over Les Schwab". I went elsewhere.
 
chartbundle said:
I was out one day going into a (new to me) field where there were between 1 and 3 "red and white skywagons" with apparently no tail numbers, and people calling "over Les Schwab". I went elsewhere.
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How does the tail number help you see them?
 
chartbundle said:
I was out one day going into a (new to me) field where there were between 1 and 3 "red and white skywagons" with apparently no tail numbers, and people calling "over Les Schwab". I went elsewhere.
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Had not done the home work to comply with FAR 91.3. but you still could have asked.

Reporting points are on the Sectional. That's why I loved the Little brown book.
 
Tom-D said:
I've re-read the thread, and think that the guy doing touch and go's took off into traffic on final.
When doing touch and go's you do not automatically have the right of way to take off. It's up to you to insure the departure route is clear.
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When landing we're always planning for an aborted go-around, right?

Not completely disagreeing, nor agreeing with you.
 
Ravioli said:
When landing we're always planning for an aborted go-around, right?
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Yep... But by the time I'm a 1/4 mile final, and he's in the top of my windshield, it's pretty much over.
 
Ravioli said:
When landing we're always planning for an aborted go-around, right?

Not completely disagreeing, nor agreeing with you.
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Just did a go around today, for a Pheeee nom flying up my tail. Sporty day in Scottsdale!
 
There are no "rotorcraft patterns." Avoiding the flow of fixed wing traffic DOES NOT mean flying the opposite pattern prescribed for an airport. Gyros need some runway distance to land, so it is best for them to simply follow the standard pattern for the field.
 
PaulS said:
Just did a go around today, for a Pheeee nom flying up my tail. Sporty day in Scottsdale!
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Reminds me of my first solo at KTKI. Tower told me to move right and go around for the Fokker on my 6. (I think I spelled it right, not sure I PRONOUNCED it right at the time) I was in a Warrior.
 
SkyHog said:
How does the tail number help you see them?
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1. I would know if I was looking for 1, 2 or 3 different planes, different voices could be student and instructor or different planes.

2. I'd know if the same plane was doing a tight downwind to final when I hear "turning base" then shortly after "turning final" same plane on a tight turn or 2 planes following each other?

Tom-D said:
Had not done the home work to comply with FAR 91.3. but you still could have asked.

Reporting points are on the Sectional. That's why I loved the Little brown book.
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So, I'm supposed to pull up google maps and memorize all the various buildings and businesses around an airport?
 
chartbundle said:
I was out one day going into a (new to me) field where there were between 1 and 3 "red and white skywagons" with apparently no tail numbers, and people calling "over Les Schwab". I went elsewhere.
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What, those aren't VFR reporting points on your sectional?
 
Tom isn't fazed by much, he flies in and out of AWO enough. that place gets NUTS on a nice day. I avoid it, though it's a nice airport
 
Ravioli said:
When landing we're always planning for an aborted go-around, right?

Not completely disagreeing, nor agreeing with you.
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I’m a student. I thought go arounds should be done by turning into the upwind leg?
Not being facetious, I thought that was standard and may be wrong.
I’m glad for this thread. It made me aware that I ought to be looking more at the end or the runway on landings Instead of hard focus only on the landing, and also check again before takeoff.

I’m a defensive driver, but that is easier than being a defensive pilot, at this stage. I need to work on that and these stories help me realize just how much. But the defensive driver is the same idea, even though other vehicles are not supposed to something (or it’s a bad idea) I’m trying to make sure I avoid them anyway.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I’m a student. I thought go arounds should be done by turning into the upwind leg?
Not being facetious, I thought that was standard and may be wrong.
I’m glad for this thread. It made me aware that I ought to be looking more at the end or the runway on landings Instead of hard focus only on the landing, and also check again before takeoff.

I’m a defensive driver, but that is easier than being a defensive pilot, at this stage. I need to work on that and these stories help me realize just how much. But the defensive driver is the same idea, even though other vehicles are not supposed to something (or it’s a bad idea) I’m trying to make sure I avoid them anyway.
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Turn into the upwind leg…., depending on the reason for the go around, I typically sidestep to the right 1 or 2 hundred feet so I can see the runway, then fly to the end of the runway before turning crosswind, most importantly, climbing to PA. That said, I've been asked for immediate turns on go arounds by the CT, and occasionally a 360 back to short final. If you are uncomfortable with an instruction like that, say unable, that you would like a more standard pattern. It's a high workload time for you and you need to fly the airplane, then make sure you understand the instruction if at a towered airport before accepting it. If you are too busy, a quick "stand by" until things settle down is ok, but keep in mind there may be a good reason for an instruction.
 
chartbundle said:
So, I'm supposed to pull up google maps and memorize all the various buildings and businesses around an airport?
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It sounds like you are confused about where to find reporting points.
 
MIFlyer said:
Tom isn't fazed by much, he flies in and out of AWO enough. that place gets NUTS on a nice day. I avoid it, though it's a nice airport
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Yep, when you see 2 jump planes dropping meat bombs, 2 students doing T&Gs, it can get a bit hectic.
But it is calm now, back in the day at AWO we would have 2 patterns going to 29 and 34, with 18 aircraft in the patterns
no one talked because some one always had the push to talk pushed, there was a constant squeal
 
Tom-D said:
It sounds like you are confused about where to find reporting points.
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From a practical standpoint, GPS in every cockpit made reporting points unnecessary. Now, you just look at the magic box and call out direction and distance to the field. You don't need local knowledge or a brown book.
 
It is not about Nordo being illegal , which is not, but rather about being reckless - of course radios can fail and people can make mistakes but so what .... it is not a binary choice, if more people use radio and communicate their position , it is just yet another tool in the toolbox as far as situational awareness is concerned.

If it makes sense for controlled space why it wouldn’t make sense for everywhere else ... and frankly, given a choice, I would rather deal with a raging idiot blabbering on comms rather than the same raging idiot silently going about doing whatever reckless thing he is about to do - at least I can hear him miles away and get the f*** out of there ...
 
kyleb said:
From a practical standpoint, GPS in every cockpit made reporting points unnecessary. Now, you just look at the magic box and call out direction and distance to the field. You don't need local knowledge or a brown book.
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And at the end of the day "5 miles north" tells me way more than over Les Schwab, or WalMart or whatever other made-up un-published reporting point you're using locally.
 
chartbundle said:
And at the end of the day "5 miles north" tells me way more than over Les Schwab, or WalMart or whatever other made-up un-published reporting point you're using locally.
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When I was based at HRO (Tyson country...big time) I would occasionally report "over the chicken house" as a joke (they were everywhere). Or, I'd announce that I was doing the chicken house three arrival,

No one was ever in the pattern when i would do this (well, unless they were NORDO...and, if so, it didn't matter anyway!)...it was simply for the FBO's pleasure. :)
 
kyleb said:
From a practical standpoint, GPS in every cockpit made reporting points unnecessary. Now, you just look at the magic box and call out direction and distance to the field. You don't need local knowledge or a brown book.
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Will that tell you what the local boys and girls use?
You may know exactly where you are, do you know where I am?

I doubt it,, because I am no electric. and will be in your Windshield shortly.
 
kyleb said:
The locals here use the GPS readout: "Cessna XYZ, 3 Northwest of the field"
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As they should! Sometimes I'll add an additional descriptor, like "following the interstate in" but I always announce distance and direction first.

You don't have to be local to know what a f***ing interstate highway is! ;)
 
That is what is wrong with todays pilots, we make rules "See and avoid" and every body has their own way. And if you don't do it their way, you are the one that's wrong.
I guess segmented circles don't mean anything any more.
 
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