NORDO - Wrong runway

MarcoDA40

MarcoDA40

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Marco
Went out today to fly some laps around the pattern. Wind was favoring runway 3. There was another C172 in the pattern with me. I took off from a touch and go and as I was crossing the numbers i looked down and there was a bonanza landing on 21. Base on field elevation and my altitude at that point, i would say the bonanza was 200 feet below me. I got on the radio and said “whoa whoa!! Runway 3 is currently being used! Whoever landed 21 !!” Still no radio call. Cessna driver comes on and says. “Yep wrong runway! Thanks for the heads up”

This didn’t really make me clench but but if I had delayed my rotation by 30 seconds i would probably not be here posting this.
With my nose-up attitude, there was no Way I could see the incoming traffic.
I didn’t really do anything about it since I didn’t know if I could.. and the Last thing I want to do is get into a verbal or even physical altercation at the airport... but I did write down the tail number.
I have seen that plane there before so I know it’s someone that frequents the airport.

Two scenarios:

Wrong frequency

Laziness

I feel like it was laziness. I’m SURE that they saw me taking off and they could have at least side stepped and joined the proper pattern.

Just venting...
 
That is scary, glad you're okay.

You were correct in thinking you can't do anything about it. I would assume he was on the wrong frequency or had a radio issue. I would also assume he didn't see you. Otherwise he was just stupid to land downwind without making calls and especially to land toward a plane taking off with another one in the pattern. Good thing you rotated when you did and said something on the radio so that the other 172 pilot was alerted. Sometimes in flying, and life in general, we're more lucky than good.
 
Doesn't landing traffic have the right of way?

That's why I survey the entire pattern before takeoff.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Base on field elevation and my altitude at that point, i would say the bonanza was 200 feet below me. I got on the radio and said “whoa whoa!! Runway 3 is currently being used! Whoever landed 21 !!
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Other than lack of communication, what was the problem? There is no "runway in use" at a nontowered airport. Yes, if there are multiple airplanes using a particular runway, it is a very good idea to use the same one, but it is not a requirement.
 
And at pilot controlled fields there is no “active runway” in use, so there is nothing stopping another plane from using another runway. It doesn’t break the rules in any way as far as I know other than the general right of way rules.

Edit : Damn , I typed mine too slow
 
Lowflynjack said:
He said he was doing touch-n-goes, so a few seconds before, he was landing traffic.
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And then he was traffic going around.

There's no requirement to even have a radio. That's why we fly visually.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Other than lack of communication, what was the problem? There is no "runway in use" at a nontowered airport. Yes, if there are multiple airplanes using a particular runway, it is a very good idea to use the same one, but it is not a requirement.
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Matthew Rogers said:
And at pilot controlled fields there is no “active runway” in use, so there is nothing stopping another plane from using another runway. It doesn’t break the rules in any way as far as I know other than the general right of way rules.
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You guys don't see a problem with a plane taking off, just getting over the departure-end numbers and another airplane landing under him? That alone is stupid and reckless, not to metion he said there was another airplane in the pattern behind him.
 
bflynn said:
And then he was traffic going around.

There's no requirement to even have a radio. That's why we fly visually.
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I think more and more on this forum, people just like to argue. If a plane takes off and is just over the numbers when another plane lands under them, this is extremely stupid and dangerous. Without the other plane making radio calls, I doubt you would even see the plane most of the time. I've heard planes call that they were on final when I was getting ready to take off and I still struggled to see them.

Oh well, I guess people will argue about anything, even if it's common sense. I bet the other plane would have had a different opinion if the OP had an engine failure.
 
No, not saying that it is not dangerous, just not prohibited.
 
Lowflynjack said:
You guys don't see a problem with a plane taking off, just getting over the departure-end numbers and another airplane landing under him? That alone is stupid and reckless, not to metion he said there was another airplane in the pattern behind him.
Click to expand...

There seems to be an assumption that the guy landing saw the guy taking off and did what they did intentionally. That may not be the case.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
No, not saying that it is not dangerous, just not prohibited.
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I think it is. I'm sure you could get in trouble if the FAA thought you did this intentionally.

§ 91.13 Careless or reckless operation.
(a)Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.
 
mondtster said:
There seems to be an assumption that the guy landing saw the guy taking off and did what they did intentionally. That may not be the case.
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I agree and I originally stated that I don't think he did... or I at least hope he didn't. Other people posting here are taking the approach there is nothing wrong with it if he did it on purpose.
 
Well, it is not wrong to use a different runway than other people, provided it is done in a safe manner. All that was stated was that you can choose your own runway, irrespective of the one that was last used by another aircraft. For all you know approaching an airfield, the last aircraft could have been practicing downwind landings or high crosswind landings and your preferred runway is different than theirs. But of course, you must always fly in a safe and non reckless manner, and usually this means lots of clear radio calls.
 
Communication is something I truly believe is a safety item. In SE AK everyone flies up and down the channels to and from announcing position and altitude along the way on a common traffic frequency. In the Sport I have 2 coms + a handheld. I often ask for a radio check on the common traffic frequency for the heck of it. My handheld will soon have a dedicated antenna just incase I really need it.

Sounds like the Bo driver was behind the power curve. Even if he had com problems isn't the normal procedure to enter the pattern with the flow. If he had an electrical or mechanical or some other emergency well that's another story.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
Well, it is not wrong to use a different runway than other people, provided it is done in a safe manner. All that was stated was that you can choose your own runway, irrespective of the one that was last used by another aircraft. For all you know approaching an airfield, the last aircraft could have been practicing downwind landings or high crosswind landings and your preferred runway is different than theirs. But of course, you must always fly in a safe and non reckless manner, and usually this means lots of clear radio calls.
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I'm okay with planes not using radios, and I've landed on a different runway than the plane before me used. I'm usually flying tailwheel planes that are less forgiving, so maybe a slight tailwind was okay for the departing airplane, but I want to land into the wind. However, I would be furious if someone landed underneath me like OP said happened to him. If I'm still over the numbers, I don't think anyone else should under me and over the numbers, especially without talking to me.
 
Ever consider the Bonanza thought he had a working radio and not hearing any other traffic responding to his calls, chose to land on that runway. It can be difficult to see other aircraft in any situation. He may have had no idea the other aircraft existed, or that he had a failed radio.

Just saying...
 
Radio issues aside, it sounds to me like two pilots focused so hard on their landings that they forgot to look past the runway.
 
The landing plane guy might have been a little upset that another plane took off over him....:rolleyes:

Just depends on whose view gets out first...


AKBill said:
In SE AK everyone flies up and down the channels to and from announcing position and altitude along the way on a common traffic frequency.
Click to expand...

1 2 3 down and out... I don't know who came up with that idea but it works. I never saw a plane at my altitude coming at me.
 
It's visual flight rules, not radio flight rules.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Ever consider the Bonanza thought he had a working radio and not hearing any other traffic responding to his calls, chose to land on that runway. It can be difficult to see other aircraft in any situation. He may have had no idea the other aircraft existed, or that he had a failed radio.

Just saying...
Click to expand...

The Bonanza was in a traffic pattern with at least two other aircraft. If he didn't see them, he was negligent, your "difficult to see" doesn't excuse poor safety practices. If he didn't hear any radio calls on the CTAF, again, the pilot is a bit clueless. How many times have you approached a non-towered field with multiple aircraft in the pattern and not heard one radio call?

As usual, some posts say "he had every right to land on the runway of his choice without making radio calls".

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, while ignoring the pilot's obviously unsafe conduct and excusing his endangerment of another pilot.
 
3393RP said:
The Bonanza was in a traffic pattern with at least two other aircraft. If he didn't see them, he was negligent, your "difficult to see" doesn't excuse poor safety practices. If he didn't hear any radio calls on the CTAF, again, the pilot is a bit clueless. How many times have you approached a non-towered field with multiple aircraft in the pattern and not heard one radio call?
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You apparently missed my point. He may not have been aware of a radio failure, and assumed he was the only aircraft around since no one was responding to his radio calls. It can be damn hard to spot other traffic when you know they are there, even harder when you don't. Hard to say, we are only hearing one side of this story.

The point for the OP is that it is an untowered airport. Anything can and does happen. It is up to you to keep an eye out for other traffic. How did the OP not see an oncoming aircraft during his takeoff role?
 
Hmmm, I don’t know, aren’t bonanza drivers always right followed by cirrus drivers who are almost always right?
 
Lowflynjack said:
He said he was doing touch-n-goes, so a few seconds before, he was landing traffic.
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I overlooked that.

Still, at an uncontrolled field, you're the one responsible for taking care of your own ass. I got to fly for the first time in (seemingly) a month this evening, and as I was on my 45* entry to downwind to 01, with a C-172 doing TnG's on 01, the C-172 turned crosswind just in time to allow a Lear to land on 19, and the Lear cleared 19 just as I turned short final for 01. Keep your eyes and your options open...
 
3393RP said:
The Bonanza was in a traffic pattern with at least two other aircraft. If he didn't see them, he was negligent, your "difficult to see" doesn't excuse poor safety practices. If he didn't hear any radio calls on the CTAF, again, the pilot is a bit clueless. How many times have you approached a non-towered field with multiple aircraft in the pattern and not heard one radio call?

As usual, some posts say "he had every right to land on the runway of his choice without making radio calls".

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, while ignoring the pilot's obviously unsafe conduct and excusing his endangerment of another pilot.
Click to expand...
Did the two other planes see him?
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Went out today to fly some laps around the pattern. Wind was favoring runway 3. There was another C172 in the pattern with me. I took off from a touch and go and as I was crossing the numbers i looked down and there was a bonanza landing on 21. Base on field elevation and my altitude at that point, i would say the bonanza was 200 feet below me. I got on the radio and said “whoa whoa!! Runway 3 is currently being used! Whoever landed 21 !!” Still no radio call. Cessna driver comes on and says. “Yep wrong runway! Thanks for the heads up”

This didn’t really make me clench but but if I had delayed my rotation by 30 seconds i would probably not be here posting this.
With my nose-up attitude, there was no Way I could see the incoming traffic.
I didn’t really do anything about it since I didn’t know if I could.. and the Last thing I want to do is get into a verbal or even physical altercation at the airport... but I did write down the tail number.
I have seen that plane there before so I know it’s someone that frequents the airport.

Two scenarios:

Wrong frequency

Laziness

I feel like it was laziness. I’m SURE that they saw me taking off and they could have at least side stepped and joined the proper pattern.

Just venting...
Click to expand...

While I understand your situation and at an uncontrolled airport the normal procedure is for aircraft to land upwind, but the airport is uncontrolled and they are not required to.

So playing devils advocate I will ask, Did you visually clear the end of the runway before you added power for your TG?

91.113.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

Did you yield the right of way to the aircraft on final?

g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach...

This guy didn’t force you off the surface, you took off head on into his flight path. Use your eyes and don’t assume things.
 
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I have posted this before, but it fits in here:

While turning downwind at my tower controlled home airport, I raised my left wing to clear the area of the inbound 45 and saw a tire and wheel in the gap between my flap and aileron! (Cessna 150).

A Bonanza who had last reported a checkpoint five miles away flew right over me on downwind and missed me by inches! I called the tower to advise them what happened and they called the Bonanza to ask his position.

He stated he was "a little closer in than he thought" just about the time he turned base, now far in front of me.

Even at tower controlled airports, you have to look for airplanes that are not where they should be, or where you expect them to be...
 
This may or may not offend someone, but NORDO in the 21st century should be defined as "reckless dumb-ass." My base is a very active uncontrolled field, and even with that, as long as everyone listens, makes proper reports, and exercises basic aeronautical courtesy, everyone can usually get what they want and get it safely.
 
SbestCFII said:
This may or may not offend someone, but NORDO in the 21st century should be defined as "reckless dumb-ass." My base is a very active uncontrolled field, and even with that, as long as everyone listens, makes proper reports, and exercises basic aeronautical courtesy, everyone can usually get what they want and get it safely.
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My home base and a couple of the local fields are also very busy, but we seem to deal with NORDO aircraft pretty well by following standard procedures. See and avoid is the rule of the day. I've got no problem with it. Truthfully, with some of the foreign students in the area, see and avoid is much better than trying to figure out WTF is happening by listening to the radio.
 
SbestCFII said:
This may or may not offend someone, but NORDO in the 21st century should be defined as "reckless dumb-ass."
Click to expand...
Not offended, exactly, just a gently raised eyebrow - NORDO is within the bounds of normal GA operations - if it scares you, you may be frequenting the wrong airports; towered fields may be more comfortable for you.

Not intended as sarcasm, truly - diffrent comfort levels for diffrent pilots are fine, but that includes some folks who are fine with NORDO.

If not IFR, I don't use flight following, and I'm neither reckless nor dumb: But uber safety isn't my goal when flying.
 
kyleb said:
My home base and a couple of the local fields are also very busy, but we seem to deal with NORDO aircraft pretty well by following standard procedures. See and avoid is the rule of the day. I've got no problem with it. Truthfully, with some of the foreign students in the area, see and avoid is much better than trying to figure out WTF is happening by listening to the radio.
Click to expand...

Still, flying Nordo is reckless and stupid - of course see and avoid is the rule but every other bit of additional situational awareness helps and having and using comms definitely helps ...
 
Warmi said:
Still, flying Nordo is reckless and stupid - of course see and avoid is the rule but every other bit of additional situational awareness helps and having and using comms definitely helps ...
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And many times it only confuses the rest of us. So many times I hear pilots babbling on and on when they should have just shut up.
I think a mis-used radio is more dangerous than not having one.
 
Tom-D said:
And many times it only confuses the rest of us. So many times I hear pilots babbling on and on when they should have just shut up.
I think a mis-used radio is more dangerous than not having one.
Click to expand...

That’s irrelevant to my point - that’s like saying, since some people tend to disregard the rules , it is probably better not to have any ...and hey, it will have the added benefit of keeping everyone on the edge all the time and looking outside ...
 
That’s why we fly patterns and look out the windows. I was shooting landings in a stearman with no radio and a guy came straight in and yelled at me while I was fueling. If he flew a pattern and looked out the windshield he would have seen a big yellow biplane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Matthew Rogers said:
And at pilot controlled fields there is no “active runway” in use, so there is nothing stopping another plane from using another runway. It doesn’t break the rules in any way as far as I know other than the general right of way rules....
Click to expand...
And this incident proves, once again, that "pilot controlled fields" are a myth. There is no pilot who controls which runway is in use, among other things.
 
Lowflynjack said:
You guys don't see a problem with a plane taking off, just getting over the departure-end numbers and another airplane landing under him? That alone is stupid and reckless, not to metion he said there was another airplane in the pattern behind him.
Click to expand...
Of course I see a problem with that. I also see a potential problem with doing a tng in the face of traffic lined up on the other end. Either or both might have violated some reg, but not "using the improper runway." I thought my comment was pretty specific to the idea that Pilot A cannot foreclose Pilot B's runway choice by some announcement, but I guess not.
 
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I occasionally fly at a field with lots of unusual operations. (KZPH) Gyrocopters, ultralights, gliders, and one of the biggest skydive centers out there. It’s a challenge to keep track of everything that’s going on with people falling out of the sky, gliders stretching to make it back home, twin turbine skydive planes dropping in from 13,000 feet to pick up another load as quick as possible, gyros and ultralights that never seem to be in the standard pattern.....

I’ve had a twin otter take off the other direction both below me, and above me while landing a glider at that field. I can’t say I like it, but I also can’t say it was “unsafe” either.

The bottom line is you need to be watching all the time and do what it takes to keep that margin of safety. You could have seen the landing aircraft and sidestepped.

I’d take it as a learning experience. Sometimes crap happens and you are the only one able to stop the chain of crap before someone gets hurt - even if it wasn’t your fault.
 
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