Non-Direct Flight Following

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Michael Porowski

Filing Flight Plan
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Dec 4, 2022
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MSki
My basic question:
Is there any issue with requesting flight following and not proceeding directly to my destination?

Example:
I fly out of Centennial Airport KAPA near Denver International Airport KDEN. I often take friends out for a sightseeing ride and fly under DENs class B airspace. I would like to request flight following but I am not proceeding directly to an airport. Rather, I am departing KAPA, then meandering around the city until returning to KAPA. Having flight following service in such a busy airspace would be great. I acknowledge that this does not relieve me, PIC of remaining heads up and vigilantly scanning for traffic.

Thanks for the feedback!
 
nope, just be prepared and tell 'em what you wanna do. also, it doesn't mean u can just wander into the bravo. also my answer is a general one, I can't speak for that area and if they'll be too busy and deny you or anything like that.
 
Michael Porowski said:
My basic question:
Is there any issue with requesting flight following and not proceeding directly to my destination?

Example:
I fly out of Centennial Airport KAPA near Denver International Airport KDEN. I often take friends out for a sightseeing ride and fly under DENs class B airspace. I would like to request flight following but I am not proceeding directly to an airport. Rather, I am departing KAPA, then meandering around the city until returning to KAPA. Having flight following service in such a busy airspace would be great. I acknowledge that this does not relieve me, PIC of remaining heads up and vigilantly scanning for traffic.

Thanks for the feedback!
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There are many ways you can make this request. If there are multiple legs, just keep them informed when you are about to make a change in direction or altitude. If you are circling you can say "maneuvering within 3 miles of XYZ".
 
Wonder if there’s an unwritten ‘city tour’ in the DEN area.
 
I've received conflicting feedback from instructors regarding how big your deviation needs to be from direct before you should tell the controller about your non-direct route. I'm not familiar with your area, but I think I've got the gist of your issue from your post and it sounds like you should inform the controller of a brief "via." This will help the controller figure out if you are going to a different sector than a direct route would normally bring you through.
 
TCABM said:
Wonder if there’s an unwritten ‘city tour’ in the DEN area.
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That’s what I’ve used, with lots of success. Just check in where I am, request a tour of the city, and say where I’ll head after that. They typically give me a boundary (“Stay west of I-35”) and just to tell them when I’m proceeding on. Oh - and I also tell them my expected altitude block (stating a block or “at or below” gives me flexibility). They’ve always been happy with that.
 
This is definitely possible. Just tell them what you want to do. Now, if you ask for radar service to a destination and then deviate wildly from your course, they will probably ask what you are doing, but I get Flight Following whenever there are alot of aircraft in the air and I just want to do some maneuvers or just fly around. I give them the general area that I want to fly around and the altitude block I intend to use. My local ATC appreciates me wanting to communicate with them as well as me being open to have them redirect me if there is a conflict. I fly out if a Class D under a TRSA.
 
Maybe try “N123TB requesting VFR traffic advisories, type C172, negative destination.” Remember that flight following is a service to you, not an exception to the “rules” part of VFR. It neither restricts what you can do nor adds to it.
 
Remember, the voice on the other end of the radio is not a computer, it's a human being. Just tell them in plain English what you are wanting to do.
 
iamtheari said:
Maybe try “N123TB requesting VFR traffic advisories, type C172, negative destination.”
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I've used the same with "maneuvering in the vicinity of..." instead of "negative destination"

Nauga,
with a positively negative attitude
 
Flight following is not a flight plan...you are free to fly wherever and however you want within VFR regulations.

Controllers just want to know what to expect from you so they can anticipate traffic and handoffs if not flying direct>enter>enter, but there is nothing to request...if they are curious they will ask. And it is also OK to just say in plain language "Flying round for sightseeing returning to KXYZ"...they may ask "say route of flight"....but again, that is just so they can anticipate where you wanna go and arrange for handoffs.
 
There's an easier method. Dial in 1200 on the transponder and don't bother requesting anything.
 
Try telling them you're doing flight path art and drawing a picture of the lower intestine. ;)

It depends quite a bit on the controller. Most of the ones I've had have been very accomodating and helpful. One lady working Orlando approach, though, wasn't. I was sightseeing northwest of Orlando, basically just wandering a bit, and had been using Jax approach when they handed me off to Orlando. The Orlando controller wanted to know where I was headed, so I told her I was just sightseeing and would fly east for another 5 or 10 minutes, then turn south and make my way toward Winter Haven. Her next reply was "Radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved." I guess as long as I wasn't headed toward her bravo she didn't see much point in talking with me.
 
The OB podcast guys had a discussion about this (can't remember the episode). The gist was what RingLaser said - ATC needs to know what sector you're going to go into so they can hand you off properly. I don't give waypoints because they mostly don't care, but I do give landmarks or general indication of what I want to do.
 
eman1200 said:
nope, just be prepared and tell 'em what you wanna do. also, it doesn't mean u can just wander into the bravo. also my answer is a general one, I can't speak for that area and if they'll be too busy and deny you or anything like that.
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The answer, plain and simple. To so many question about "what can I do with ATC?"

This one is pretty common. I've even seen it done under IFR. How about flight following to an private airport the controller doesn't have? Or "flight following" where there are no radar services?

just be prepared and tell 'em what you wanna do.

PS. Of course I used flight following when I did tours which ran through that incredibly busy I-25 corridor! Those controllers were great the 20 years I flew out if Centennial. I doubt it's changed,
 
hindsight2020 said:
In book theory that's true, in practice I've found that to not be the case.
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Can you share some more details on this? Even when I go really far from home, I don't use VFR flight following often, usually opting for the extreme ends of the ATC service continuum (IFR or radio silence), so I definitely have room to learn how different TRACONs and Centers treat their VFR customers.
 
iamtheari said:
....so I definitely have room to learn how different TRACONs and Centers treat their VFR customers.
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I think it depends more on the individual controller than the facility. I've had excellent and helpful service from several different facilities, and also poor service, just depending on who was on the microphone. 90% of the time it's been good. Remember, it's offered on an "if able" basis, and sometimes controllers are too busy. I'd prefer ATC to decline altogether if they're busy rather than to take me on and then give inadequate service.

I was flying back to Winter Haven after the Williston pig roast on Saturday and talking to Jax approach. The controller called out traffic at my altitude ahead of me and suggested I descend and make a right turn, which I immediately did without seeing the traffic until it passed overhead. It might have gone badly without ATC's help. I'm appreciative for the assistance to VFR pilots.

I've also been over a solid cloud deck and had ATC help me find an area of scattered where I could descend. I'm sure I could have found it with weather aids on my EFB, but that can be distracting, and it's much simpler and quicker to just push the xmit button and ask.

There have been other times, though, when I encountered nearby traffic without hearing a peep from ATC, so you can't bank on flight-following 100%. It's still the pilot's responsibility to maintain separation. FF is just another aid, like ADSB traffic, but the more aids the better.
 
Half Fast said:
I think it depends more on the individual controller than the facility. I've had excellent and helpful service from several different facilities, and also poor service, just depending on who was on the microphone. 90% of the time it's been good. Remember, it's offered on an "if able" basis, and sometimes controllers are too busy. I'd prefer ATC to decline altogether if they're busy rather than to take me on and then give inadequate service.

I was flying back to Winter Haven after the Williston pig roast on Saturday and talking to Jax approach. The controller called out traffic at my altitude ahead of me and suggested I descend and make a right turn, which I immediately did without seeing the traffic until it passed overhead. It might have gone badly without ATC's help. I'm appreciative for the assistance to VFR pilots.

I've also been over a solid cloud deck and had ATC help me find an area of scattered where I could descend. I'm sure I could have found it with weather aids on my EFB, but that can be distracting, and it's much simpler and quicker to just push the xmit button and ask.

There have been other times, though, when I encountered nearby traffic without hearing a peep from ATC, so you can't bank on flight-following 100%. It's still the pilot's responsibility to maintain separation. FF is just another aid, like ADSB traffic, but the more aids the better.
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That all seems reasonable to me, even the lackadaisical or nonexistent service provided to VFR traffic by some controllers. But @hindsight2020 was responding to my assertion that flight following does not restrict what you can do under VFR, and that's a different ball of wax altogether.

By the way, I'm still a little bitter about the pig roast y'all went to in Williston, since apparently they made a typo in the airport code so nobody showed up at the Williston airport nearest me (KXWA). :confused2:
 
iamtheari said:
That all seems reasonable to me, even the lackadaisical or nonexistent service provided to VFR traffic by some controllers. But @hindsight2020 was responding to my assertion that flight following does not restrict what you can do under VFR, and that's a different ball of wax altogether.
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He might be thinking of the requirement to obey instructions when you are talking to ATC in controlled airspace as a "restriction." I don't but I'm sure there are those who do.
 
Just tell em…

last time I used FF I was trying to outrun a storm before it cut the state in two, as it became clear I was going to need to fly over a delta I rang em up. They asked destination. I told them “unsure, just northern Michigan once I’m around this I’ll recalculate fuel.” That was plenty for them- they coordinated me over the delta and stayed with me till I was 40 mins north then I cancelled n landed for fuel.
 
iamtheari said:
Can you share some more details on this? Even when I go really far from home, I don't use VFR flight following often, usually opting for the extreme ends of the ATC service continuum (IFR or radio silence), so I definitely have room to learn how different TRACONs and Centers treat their VFR customers.
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Flight following or “basic radar services” is mostly monitoring your flight. That’s what it should be primarily about. The controller follows your flight on their display. In reality, there are a lot of situations even where the controller doesn’t have separation responsibility but yet you’ll be restricted.

A lot of times a VFR that hangs out in a busy IAP final will be given an altitude restriction. Some controllers will either vector a VFR around an active MOA or terminate them prior to the MOA. Some controllers will vector a VFR around traffic without the VFR requesting the vector. Obviously when getting FF in a TRSA, C or B a VFR will get vectors or altitude assignments to ensure separation.

While working approach I’ve vectored aircraft around the Class D because tower denied the transition due to traffic. I’ve also restricted a VFR altitude while on approach because he was hanging out at my initial for the overhead. There’s no separation requirement for both of those situations but I still had the authority to “restrict” what the aircraft was doing under VFR. I think today ATC is a little too hands on when it comes to FF but sometimes an intervention is necessary to avoid a collision.
 
Thats really what I was referring to. Being given altitude restrictions while on class E airspace, even vectors, where that wouldnt be the case if i were not talking to them. Im not gonna get into the semantics kerfuffle about what the word restriction means to others, to me thats is restricting, which is what my response to @iamtheari dealt with.
 
First, the airspace inside the Washington DC is restricted to "IFR" flight plans. You do not need to be rated, it is just the crazy rules here since 911.

I filed from KCGS, College Park, direct to Freeway, direct to the east to the Patuxent River, follow the general course of the river, sight seeing, and cross the Chesapeake Bay to Easton. Altitude, 3,000 or less until crossing the bay.

The readback was as requested, which here means nothing.

After approval for the flight, takes time, filed from home.

On the ground, by phone the controller confirmed the filed route, and gave me my mandatory squawk code, and clearance void time. Elsewhere, this is not a part of what is really a VFR flight plan.

After take off, the controller gave me a heading toward Freeway. On arrival, released to fly pilots discretion, and handed off to Patuxent controller.

About 5 miles from PAX, the controller asked when I planned to turn east, as he did not want me close to his airport. I advised that I was climbing to 4,000 feet and turning east, direct to Easton. He thanked me, and I proceeded to ESN for lunch.

During that flight, I was advised of aircraft in the pattern at Freeway, below me, Andrews AFB, to the right me, and another random GA plane passing near me.

Flight following was a nice addition to the Mark One Eyeball, and did not interfere with the pleasure of the trip.
Lunch at Easton was great.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Thats really what I was referring to. Being given altitude restrictions while on class E airspace, even vectors, where that wouldnt be the case if i were not talking to them. Im not gonna get into the semantics kerfuffle about what the word restriction means to others, to me thats is restricting, which is what my response to @iamtheari dealt with.
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Yeah, I don't think of it as a restriction but I know others do. To me it's just part of the deal I happily agree to when I ask for help from ATC.
 
"Request flight following going to fly west to the Lakeshore, up the coast to Muskegon, follow the river back."
 
Never had any issue with non direct routes with VFR flight following, including "no destination" scenic flights. On longer flights they ask for the route and planned altitude but rarely give directions.
 
Airwork in the area of.... Request traffic advisories.


Always worked for me.

Could also say: sightseeing flight in the area of...
 
I usually give a destination then I’ll say via POINT. Never have any issues. If I’m off course they might ask where I’m going and I’ll usually say “correcting”.
 
eman1200 said:
nope, just be prepared and tell 'em what you wanna do. also, it doesn't mean u can just wander into the bravo. also my answer is a general one, I can't speak for that area and if they'll be too busy and deny you or anything like that.
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What eman said, my typical "NXXYY with request... Request VFR flight following to KABC and would like to take the scenic city tour on the way out/in."
 
Wow! I can't believe all the feedback. Thanks to everyone who provided feedback!!
 
If you request it and get it, I believe you're obliged to follow vectors if the controller issues them. Some get befuddled if you answer the "Where are you going" with "I haven't decided yet." East side of the DC SFRA, following the Chesapeake Bay coast line, I had flight following - "Following the coast line" upset him, so I cancelled. I guess he was worried about not knowing when I'd change headings (I assume they don't see geo features on their screens?).

Other times a controller didn't seem to care, just called traffic. If they get annoying just cancel. . .
 
All my aerial mapping pilots use flight following. Obviously that's not a "Point A to point B" type of flight. Generally, ATC seems to rather know who/what we are and our general plan.
 
I do it all the time, flying out of Miami Executive (KTMB) tell clearance or ground where I'm going to be doing the sightseeing and get my squak code.

Usually when I'm in the air and check in with ATC they ask how far north or south I want to go.

When I'm ready to go back to KTBM I just let them know and get switch to tower.

Easy piece, no drama, no complications. Always try to get flight following ATC will be happy you do.
 
Sundancer said:
If you request it and get it, I believe you're obliged to follow vectors if the controller issues them. Some get befuddled if you answer the "Where are you going" with "I haven't decided yet." East side of the DC SFRA, following the Chesapeake Bay coast line, I had flight following - "Following the coast line" upset him, so I cancelled. I guess he was worried about not knowing when I'd change headings (I assume they don't see geo features on their screens?).

Other times a controller didn't seem to care, just called traffic. If they get annoying just cancel. . .
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I just did a VFR scenic tour out of HEF along Chesapeake Bay maybe two weeks ago. Requested FF right after HEF take off with the first Potomac approach controller. I had already considered what I was going to ask and how I was going to describe it. Which was a scenic tour @ 2500' down the Rappahannock River to the Chesapeake Bay then south along the Bay then up the York River back into the SFRA to HEF. When I got handed to the next controller, I gave them my current direct to and my next turn point. Which at various times was either of the rivers and the edge of the bay. Leaving HEF and on the way back in, I asked the controller if I could transit Quantico or if I needed to stay above it. Both times they cleared me to transit Quantico. It worked out great and my friends had a nice scenic tour of the area. Note that I simply assumed they knew where the river and the bay were but actually how do I know? Perhaps my assumption was erroneous?

Once going non-direct around the NYC Bravo area, a controller explained to me that if they have my current direct to and my next navigation point then it allows them more easily to know who to hand me off to. Based on that, when using FF and non-direct when I get a hand off to a new controller, I give them my altitude of course and include my current direct to and subsequent navigation point in my initial call. That usually gives them all they need although sometimes they still come back and ask my destination.

BTW - I do not believe I am obligated to accept any vectors/altitudes given to me by a Controller while on Flight Following assuming of course that I am not in B/C/D/SFRA airspace. If I am given vectors or altitude restrictions and I do accept them then I do think I have to follow them. Realistically, if a controller gives me a vector, I will accept it and follow it unless I have a valid safety concern. Clouds are an obvious (but not the only) issue. Even in Bravo while VFR, I have replied unable due to clouds. It may be a small cloud but if I can't see through it then I am not going to VFR fly into it.
 
Fly the airplane!!!

I have said unable to stay out of the Bravo before, fly the damn plane!!
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
". . . BTW - I do not believe I am obligated to accept any vectors/altitudes given to me by a Controller while on Flight Following assuming of course that I am not in B/C/D/SFRA airspace . . "
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I'm pretty sure the FAA General Counsel disagrees - at least that was the case a while back. But I'm no expert.
 
In SCT or NCT airspace, good luck with direct anywhere, unless you're route is on the periphery of various airspace. Same with New York, Chicago, DFW, etc.
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
I just did a VFR scenic tour out of HEF along Chesapeake Bay maybe two weeks ago. Requested FF right after HEF take off with the first Potomac approach controller. I had already considered what I was going to ask and how I was going to describe it. Which was a scenic tour @ 2500' down the Rappahannock River to the Chesapeake Bay then south along the Bay then up the York River back into the SFRA to HEF. When I got handed to the next controller, I gave them my current direct to and my next turn point. Which at various times was either of the rivers and the edge of the bay. Leaving HEF and on the way back in, I asked the controller if I could transit Quantico or if I needed to stay above it. Both times they cleared me to transit Quantico. It worked out great and my friends had a nice scenic tour of the area. Note that I simply assumed they knew where the river and the bay were but actually how do I know? Perhaps my assumption was erroneous?

Once going non-direct around the NYC Bravo area, a controller explained to me that if they have my current direct to and my next navigation point then it allows them more easily to know who to hand me off to. Based on that, when using FF and non-direct when I get a hand off to a new controller, I give them my altitude of course and include my current direct to and subsequent navigation point in my initial call. That usually gives them all they need although sometimes they still come back and ask my destination.

BTW - I do not believe I am obligated to accept any vectors/altitudes given to me by a Controller while on Flight Following assuming of course that I am not in B/C/D/SFRA airspace. If I am given vectors or altitude restrictions and I do accept them then I do think I have to follow them. Realistically, if a controller gives me a vector, I will accept it and follow it unless I have a valid safety concern. Clouds are an obvious (but not the only) issue. Even in Bravo while VFR, I have replied unable due to clouds. It may be a small cloud but if I can't see through it then I am not going to VFR fly into it.
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Chief Counsel came out with an interpretation years ago that while receiving FF in controlled airspace, you must comply with all instructions including vectors. While that’s in conflict with the controllers manual for Basic Radar Services, it’s not for the pilot to overrule.

Obviously in case of an emergency or the instruction would violate a FAR (cloud distance criteria), the pilot has final authority.
 
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