No Ammeter Reading - Would You Scrub?

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sefeing

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sefeing
Drove the hour out to KFRG this morning to go for a nice scenic leaf peeping flight through the Hudson Valley before work in a rented Warrior III, with a digital ammeter / charge indicator. Once I got through run-up, noticed the gauge wasn't reading at all - not even zero, just completely inop. Going to go through my GoPro footage to see if I missed this on startup, or if it quit along taxi. No analog gauge in this aircraft to indicate charge, just the large digital ammeter (and an alternator failure annunciator light that correctly triggered once I turned alt on/off.)

Very much felt the urge to continue on with flight as it's not part of ATOMATOFLAMES, but decided this was a sign (along with a little moisture in the instruments) of some potential effects from the massive amount of rain we have had over the last few days, and scrubbed my flight. Didn't want to get caught without radios / GPS if I could help it. Definitely disappointed as I was massively looking forward to this flight, but I'm happy with the decision I made.

What would you have done? Would you have continued on with the flight?
 
Did it have an engine monitor with a volt meter? A volt meter can also tell you what's going on. Annunciator when you turn the alt switch off is also a good indication things are probably ok.
 
You did the right thing. I would have scrubbed also.

A bad ammeter in and of itself might not be a problem for the flight, but until someone investigates to find the cause of the failure you don't know that you won't encounter a more serious problem. Whatever killed the ammeter may have also damaged something else that will fail in flight.
 
You did the right thing. Listen to your gut. It's smarter than our heads.
A few times in the past twenty years, I've driven to the plane, preflighted, then got a weird feeling. Each time, I packed up and went home. I have no idea what, if anything, I was perceiving, but I'm still here.
 
Domenick said:
You did the right thing. Listen to your gut. It's smarter than our heads.
A few times in the past twenty years, I've driven to the plane, preflighted, then got a weird feeling. Each time, I packed up and went home. I have no idea what, if anything, I was perceiving, but I'm still here.
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:yeahthat:

When I was learning to cave dive, my instructor drilled this saying into my head: "Any diver may call off any dive at any time for any reason." Sometimes cavers will cancel dives just because of a funny feeling. In that culture, dive buddies don't argue with the decision, or even really question it very much. Instincts are trusted.

I've tried to carry the same attitude over to my flying. If anything doesn't seem right, even if (or maybe especially if) I don't know why, then I'd rather be on the ground.
 
An ammeter may not be required for flight (forget ATOMATOFLAMES and learn the regulatory references), but it’s a great tool for determining whether other things are working. If you turn on pitot heat, for example, you should see a significant load increase.
 
I think the OP made the right call but I’m curious if the OP, or anyone else, would have made the same call had you been away from base and planning to make your trip home.

I know for me it would be a lot harder to scrub that trip. it’s easy to scrub a leaf peeping trip; it’s much harder when your decision involves cost, complication, and disappointment.
 
sefeing said:
Drove the hour out to KFRG this morning to go for a nice scenic leaf peeping flight through the Hudson Valley before work in a rented Warrior III, with a digital ammeter / charge indicator. Once I got through run-up, noticed the gauge wasn't reading at all - not even zero, just completely inop. Going to go through my GoPro footage to see if I missed this on startup, or if it quit along taxi. No analog gauge in this aircraft to indicate charge, just the large digital ammeter (and an alternator failure annunciator light that correctly triggered once I turned alt on/off.)

Very much felt the urge to continue on with flight as it's not part of ATOMATOFLAMES, but decided this was a sign (along with a little moisture in the instruments) of some potential effects from the massive amount of rain we have had over the last few days, and scrubbed my flight. Didn't want to get caught without radios / GPS if I could help it. Definitely disappointed as I was massively looking forward to this flight, but I'm happy with the decision I made.

What would you have done? Would you have continued on with the flight?
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Scrub. For all those reasons above. I don’t think you are going to get very many ya shoulda gone anyway’s. What did the fbo/school/club you rented from say about it?
 
Brad Z said:
I think the OP made the right call but I’m curious if the OP, or anyone else, would have made the same call had you been away from base and planning to make your trip home.

I know for me it would be a lot harder to scrub that trip. it’s easy to scrub a leaf peeping trip; it’s much harder when your decision involves cost, complication, and disappointment.
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Hmm. I kinda did something like it once. Was out playing, did an approach to a full stop, taxied back to depart and the over voltage light lit off. Shut down the alternator and flew it home.
 
When making the go/no-go decision, I always say if its not an absolute yes, then its a no. If any part of you is saying no, or even maybe, then its a no. Sometimes that gut feeling is telling you something.

I used to work for a company that by necessity did repelling work off of skyscrapers. Not me, I could never walk near the edge myself. One guy I worked with in the shop used to be a repeller, until one day he was on top of a building getting ready to go over the side when this nagging feeling hit. He stopped and double checked all of his kit, couldn't find anything wrong. Went back to the edge when that feeling hit again. Check all of his gear one more time, couldn't find any issues. Back to the edge one more time, same feeling. Packed up his stuff and went back to the shop, never repelled again. When you are doing something with higher risk, you have to accept that sixth sense.
 
Brad Z said:
I think the OP made the right call but I’m curious if the OP, or anyone else, would have made the same call had you been away from base and planning to make your trip home.

I know for me it would be a lot harder to scrub that trip. it’s easy to scrub a leaf peeping trip; it’s much harder when your decision involves cost, complication, and disappointment.
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I’ve scrubbed when I shouldn’t have, and I’ve flown when I shouldn’t have. At a certain point I realized that if you fly when you shouldn’t, someone (maybe yourself, maybe someone else) is going to start expecting you to continue to fly when you shouldn’t without regard to any reasoning that may have applied the previous time(s).

“it’s going to cost a lot of money,” is one that I heard fairly often. My response usually was, “yep.” Agreement tends to **** people off. ;)

And yes, mechanical issues have increased my vacation costs significantly.
 
correct call I think.
Depends on a ton of variables...but assuming if it was a local flight, good weather, kind of flight one could do in a no electrical system champ or cub... then I MIGHT spend a few minutes looking for ways to verify...such as the previously mentioned pitot heat, landing lights, etc. to load the system, cycle the alternator master, etc... try to determine if/how things were working.
but probably not...most likely I'd end up scrubbing the flight anyway

MauleSkinner said:
I’ve scrubbed when I shouldn’t have, and I’ve flown when I shouldn’t have. At a certain point I realized that if you fly when you shouldn’t, someone (maybe yourself, maybe someone else) is going to start expecting you to continue to fly when you shouldn’t without regard to any reasoning that may have applied the previous time(s).
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I probably would have a Multi rating now if I'd followed that pressure form someone else to fly.... but then again I might not be here either. I was signed off to solo a rented Apache 150 to a nearby airport for my practical exam, when I discovered the fuel bladders leaking, and I scrubbed. Turns out the tops of the bladders were dry rotted. School pressured me to fly the following weekend, just don't fill past 1/2 tanks. I spent a huge amount of time researching and could find nothing saying for sure if this was ok or not. Got a bit of a lesson on minimum equipment lists, and some other things that I've by now forgotten. This was along time ago, pre-internet. The saga drug out a long time, I got rusty, never got my rating. SERIOUS disappointment, big money sorta lost, but I haven't held too much regret all these years. I will admit to a twinge of regret though, because I am pretty much confident that it would have been ok...because I know the plane flew like that after. To my knowledge the school never fixed the plane, I lost track how long the kept it though....eventually sold it....
 
In situations like these, I like to ask rhetorically - "Why go through all the steps and procedures to make sure nothing is wrong with the aircraft you are about to fly, if you're going to fly it anyway?"

On another note, an item not being required by ATOMATOFLAMES does not mean it's not required. The mnemonic is a fast way to reject an aircraft if something on the list is broken, rather than a way to accept an aircraft if something not on the list is broken.
 
Brad Z said:
I think the OP made the right call but I’m curious if the OP, or anyone else, would have made the same call had you been away from base and planning to make your trip home.

I know for me it would be a lot harder to scrub that trip. it’s easy to scrub a leaf peeping trip; it’s much harder when your decision involves cost, complication, and disappointment.
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I've always wondered about the practical application of what I/we CFIs have to teach, when it comes to exactly this situation with equipment problems that really don't affect the ability of the airplane to fly.

A good example would be you're at some remote airfield. No services. No hotels, rental cars, FBO, Uber - nothing. It's dark when you go to takeoff, and the left nav light burns out. So you're not legal to fly. But the plane of course will fly just fine. So, it's either 1) break the rules and fly home ("oh hey, it must have burnt out in flight"), or 2) Sleep in the plane overnight, and fly it out the next day.

Everybody has a different limit. What if it was something (like the rotating beacon), where even waiting until the next day wasn't sufficient - it needs to be fixed to be legal. Do you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars getting it fixed there, or just say "screw it, I'm flying it like this"?

It's real easy to parrot back 91.205/etc. on checkride day, but in real life it's a lot more gray.
 
RussR said:
I've always wondered about the practical application of what I/we CFIs have to teach, when it comes to exactly this situation with equipment problems that really don't affect the ability of the airplane to fly.

A good example would be you're at some remote airfield. No services. No hotels, rental cars, FBO, Uber - nothing. It's dark when you go to takeoff, and the left nav light burns out. So you're not legal to fly. But the plane of course will fly just fine. So, it's either 1) break the rules and fly home ("oh hey, it must have burnt out in flight"), or 2) Sleep in the plane overnight, and fly it out the next day.

Everybody has a different limit. What if it was something (like the rotating beacon), where even waiting until the next day wasn't sufficient - it needs to be fixed to be legal. Do you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars getting it fixed there, or just say "screw it, I'm flying it like this"?

It's real easy to parrot back 91.205/etc. on checkride day, but in real life it's a lot more gray.
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It’s not gray. But like drinking and driving, it’s a decision that really needs to be made long before finding yourself in that situation.
 
You mad the right call. I had a total electrical failure in a 172 in Delta airspace while trying to land because of an alternator failure. You don't want to mess around with this stuff.

In my case, at some point during the flight, the alternator field circuit breaker popped and the ammeter showed discharge, and I just didn't notice it. When I went to deploy the flaps, it sucked the last bit of juice out of the batteries, and everything went dark.

You made the correct call.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It’s not gray. But like drinking and driving, it’s a decision that really needs to be made long before finding yourself in that situation.
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You're right, the rules themselves are not gray. But it's definitely not quite so easy to really say "we'll sleep in the plane" at the moment. The risk assessment is way more complex than it's usually discussed on a checkride.
 
RussR said:
You're right, the rules themselves are not gray. But it's definitely not quite so easy to really say "we'll sleep in the plane" at the moment. The risk assessment is way more complex than it's usually discussed on a checkride.
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Which is why “at the moment “ is the wrong time to make that decision.
 
This is a good illistration of why cool sexy digital gauges and monitors are great until they are not. Until recently my airplane was 100% mechanical and steam gauges. I did not need electrical power to operate the airplane or manage the engine, and my AFM says I can continue flight without an operative electrical system if electrical power is not needed for safe flight (eg radios, transponder). A few months ago, the capillary tube on my oil temp gauge broke during an oil change, and I swapped it out for an electric gauge. I often wonder whether I made a mistake, as now an alternator failure would force me to land "as soon as practicable".

As to the specific question of scrubbing the flight, that is in part a regulatory question, and is not answered by TOMATOFLAMES or another generic rule of thumb. Does your AFM have a required equipment list? Is an ammeter or voltmeter on that list? If so, then you were not legal to take off without a ferry permit, according to my limited understanding of the FAR. Maybe others who know more can correct me or amplify on this.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Which is why “at the moment “ is the wrong time to make that decision.
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Are you saying that before the trip is the right time to make the decision "if my nav light burns out, I'm flying home anyway"? ;)

All I'm really saying is that everybody has different limits, and in many cases I'm not even going to look down on someone for what they decide.

It's illegal to drive with a taillight out. If someone notices it while they're running errands, then what they should do is call a friend or an Uber/taxi to drive them to an auto parts store, and back, so they can fix the light. Or if they don't know how to fix it, to call a tow truck to take it to the shop. If it's after hours, then a friend/Uber/taxi to take them home so they can resolve it the next day. And if they actually did all this, I'd be quite impressed with their rule-following mindset.

But I wouldn't really expect it, of course. I think most people would just chance it and drive it home (or to the shop, or to the auto parts store). Yes, it's illegal, and they likely know that, but I for one wouldn't even look at them funny for that decision.

I don't see that it's really any different for airplanes. We all have limits.
 
RussR said:
Are you saying that before the trip is the right time to make the decision "if my nav light burns out, I'm flying home anyway"? ;)

All I'm really saying is that everybody has different limits, and in many cases I'm not even going to look down on someone for what they decide.

It's illegal to drive with a taillight out. If someone notices it while they're running errands, then what they should do is call a friend or an Uber/taxi to drive them to an auto parts store, and back, so they can fix the light. Or if they don't know how to fix it, to call a tow truck to take it to the shop. If it's after hours, then a friend/Uber/taxi to take them home so they can resolve it the next day. And if they actually did all this, I'd be quite impressed with their rule-following mindset.

But I wouldn't really expect it, of course. I think most people would just chance it and drive it home (or to the shop, or to the auto parts store). Yes, it's illegal, and they likely know that, but I for one wouldn't even look at them funny for that decision.

I don't see that it's really any different for airplanes. We all have limits.
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No, I’m saying that before the trip you should be clear in your mind whether factors that have nothing to do with safety or legality are going to make your decision for you.
 
Half Fast said:
When I was learning to cave dive, my instructor drilled this saying into my head: "Any diver may call off any dive at any time for any reason." Sometimes cavers will cancel dives just because of a funny feeling.
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It's been a few years but had a morning that was beautiful, preflight went well, run up and taxi was fine. Got to the departure end of the runway and looking down the runway decided not to go. Didn't know why and still don't ... just a feeling that this wasn't the time to go flying. Put the plane back in the hangar and drove home.

You made the right call!
 
On my 172, the main Ammeter is required equipment for all types of flights.
 
Daleandee said:
It's been a few years but had a morning that was beautiful, preflight went well, run up and taxi was fine. Got to the departure end of the runway and looking down the runway decided not to go. Didn't know why and still don't ... just a feeling that this wasn't the time to go flying. Put the plane back in the hangar and drove home.

You made the right call!
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I've cancelled a flight after getting in the plane, hadn't quite made it to the runway though. Opened the hangar up, beautiful day. Took my time pre-flighting the airplane, was in no hurry. Got in the airplane and strapped in, went through the pre-start when...anyone see what I missed yet...I realized I was still in the hangar. Decided if my mind missed pulling the airplane out of the hangar, it just wasn't a good day to go flying. Think I'll go fishing instead.
 
Daleandee said:
It's been a few years but had a morning that was beautiful, preflight went well, run up and taxi was fine. Got to the departure end of the runway and looking down the runway decided not to go. Didn't know why and still don't ... just a feeling that this wasn't the time to go flying. Put the plane back in the hangar and drove home.

You made the right call!
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This happened to me once. Something felt off and I had my boss looking at me with a wtf face. On the taxi back in the front tire went completely flat.

much better than on a takeoff run!
 
Brad Z said:
I think the OP made the right call but I’m curious if the OP, or anyone else, would have made the same call had you been away from base and planning to make your trip home.

I know for me it would be a lot harder to scrub that trip. it’s easy to scrub a leaf peeping trip; it’s much harder when your decision involves cost, complication, and disappointment.
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If we fly long enough, failures will happen and odds are a few of them will be away from home base. I slung an alternator belt on our 182 climbing out of Hattiesburg MS, heading to FTY. Took a minute to sort out exactly what had happened, weather was severe clear and I was VFR. I shut off the master switch and continued towards Atlanta. When we got close to Atlanta, I turned on the master switch, transponder and one nav-com. Landed at FTY without issue. Had the weather been any different, I would have landed back in Mississippi.
 
RussR said:
Are you saying that before the trip is the right time to make the decision "if my nav light burns out, I'm flying home anyway"? ;)

All I'm really saying is that everybody has different limits, and in many cases I'm not even going to look down on someone for what they decide.

It's illegal to drive with a taillight out. If someone notices it while they're running errands, then what they should do is call a friend or an Uber/taxi to drive them to an auto parts store, and back, so they can fix the light. Or if they don't know how to fix it, to call a tow truck to take it to the shop. If it's after hours, then a friend/Uber/taxi to take them home so they can resolve it the next day. And if they actually did all this, I'd be quite impressed with their rule-following mindset.

But I wouldn't really expect it, of course. I think most people would just chance it and drive it home (or to the shop, or to the auto parts store). Yes, it's illegal, and they likely know that, but I for one wouldn't even look at them funny for that decision.

I don't see that it's really any different for airplanes. We all have limits.
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Some people check the nav lights even for a day VFR clear and a million flight, and probably wouldn't take off if the left one is out, because it's on a checklist. Some pilots make decisions based on experience, judgment, an understanding of the potential consequences, and their willingness to live with them.
 
sefeing said:
What would you have done? Would you have continued on with the flight?
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I will suggest carrying a cig plug in USB/volt meter that you could use in a situation like this one. Cost twenty bucks and is lightweight to carry in your flight bag.

In hindsite I would have plugged it if there is a cig lighter receptacle and if it is charging I would have went.
 
My own plane, based on my knowledge of the electrical system and the potential ramifications of the failure, AND if I didn't need the radios... I would fly. A rental plane, or if I needed any electrical equipment, probably not. I've hand propped and flown with a dead battery, too, and felt perfectly comfortable doing so.

But OTOH, as others have said, I've more than once scrubbed a flight on a beautiful day for no other reason than that it just didn't feel right.
 
Had the same issue as the OP sometime last year and scrubbed. FBO said thanks for writing it up and drop it at the maintenance hangar.
 
Step 1: is it on the MEL? Yes? Cancel flight. No? Go to Step 2.
Step 2: are you concerned with it as a safety-of-flight issue or that it may be part of a bigger issue? Yes? Cancel flight. No? Go to Step 3.
Step 3: Go fly.
 
If the engine starts and stays running and the flappy things on the wings go up and down. I’m a goin’. After all, that’s all Wilbur and Orville had to work with.
 
luvflyin said:
Scrub. For all those reasons above. I don’t think you are going to get very many ya shoulda gone anyway’s. What did the fbo/school/club you rented from say about it?
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i gave them a call and let them know as well as marked it down as a squawk in the book. looks like the plane went out later in the day - they didn’t seem too concerned at the moment, but i’m not sure if they had a mechanic go check it between myself and the next rental. in general they’re known for being extremely diligent on maintenance so i’m not too concerned going forward

coming from a driveway mechanic like myself, i have a feeling it was due to the load of rain and wind we just got from a nor easter, and i was the first renter since the storm rolled out. there was some moisture / present in the fuel/oil pressure/ temp gauge as well.
 
sorry for the double post! i want to quote/ reply so many of these because of how much i appreciate the insight. glad that my thinking was sound, this reinforces my decision and is a reminder to myself that i am a good, safe (new) pilot. :)

just for ultimate clarity:

the ammeter is the only “digital” gauge in the plane (besides the dual 430’s) when i say digital, it’s a large 4 digit LCD, barely digital hah, and only indicator of charge besides the alt out light no cig outlet in the plane unfortunately

my mission was a departure from a busy long island Delta, around a busy bravo, over other busy delta’s, so planned on picking up flight following immediately for my route north then west to the hudson. all in all, glad i made the decision. had the alt & batt quit, it wouldn’t have been a very fun time getting back in. i do have a backup radio, but why risk it just for a quick fun flight, right?

not to mention some long (unexpected) prevailing MVFR today. just wasn’t in the cards i guess!
 
Morgan3820 said:
If the engine starts and stays running and the flappy things on the wings go up and down. I’m a goin’. After all, that’s all Wilbur and Orville had to work with.
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Yeah. They didn't have an electrical system that could have glitches that cause inflight fires, either.
 
sefeing said:
(and an alternator failure annunciator light that correctly triggered once I turned alt on/off.)
Would you have continued on with the flight?
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A VFR flight? Fixed gear? Manual flaps? Sure. Your alt check showed that you are making volts. Go.

I found that two twins that I regularly flew had different standards for a single generator failure. A single generator was more than enough to carry the load for either. The book for one said "generator inop, no take off IFR or VFR. In flight, land as soon as PRACTACLE." The other's book said "Generator failure; IFR, get to VFR conditions and continue." Subsequent VFR takeoffs were OK. Fly it all day VFR if you wish.

Lets see, In an alt out situation, you loose coms, navs and turn coordinator. No sweat VFR if you have a real paper map. You do however loose the fuel gauges also.

An IFR PA-180 was once upon a time, caught on top with an alt failure. I was launched to intercept and formation land him. I was current in the PA-180 also, suspected alt failure and it was a no sweat deal. Except for the fuel guage.
 
No one should ever look down on a pilot's decision to scrub a flight if they feel circumstances warrant. Conversely, a pilot deserves every bit of criticism for incidents caused by flying a plane that those same circumstances could have led to a decision to cancel the flight.
 
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