Newly minted IFR pilot

ahmad

ahmad

Pre-takeoff checklist
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S Illinois
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Midwest Aviator
So I just got some very harsh feedback from a supposedly very experienced airline pilot about flying the family on an IFR flight to Chicago. First, he said I'm an idiot and reckless because I flew my family in a non IFR certified airplane. After I told him the aircraft is indeed IFR certified and that I did my checkride in it recently he changed his tone to "well, you keep flying that simple airplane with cheap instruments and you'll burn a hole on the ground soon enough ".


Ouch. My feelings are hurt. I need to find my safe and comfort zone now and maybe even seek a therapist.

Ok, with all seriousness, I fly a C172 with a six pack and foreflight as back up. No autopilot and it is an old cessna. My cfi and DPE had no reservations on flying it IFR. I feel confident in my capabilities as a pilot but am I being too naive? I wish I had a cirrus and a much more fancier airplane but I don't. Heck, I bought a C150 for time building and it too is IFR certified.

What says you experienced pilots out there?
 
ahmad said:
So I just got some very harsh feedback from a supposedly very experienced airline pilot about flying the family on an IFR flight to Chicago. First, he said I'm an idiot and reckless because I flew my family in a non IFR certified airplane. After I told him the aircraft is indeed IFR certified and that I did my checkride in it recently he changed his tone to "well, you keep flying that simple airplane with cheap instruments and you'll burn a hole on the ground soon enough ".


Ouch. My feelings are hurt. I need to find my safe and comfort zone now and maybe even seek a therapist.

Ok, with all seriousness, I fly a C172 with a six pack and foreflight as back up. No autopilot and it is an old cessna. My cfi and DPE had no reservations on flying it IFR. I feel confident in my capabilities as a pilot but am I being too naive? I wish I had a cirrus and a much more fancier airplane but I don't. Heck, I bought a C150 for time building and it too is IFR certified.

What says you experienced pilots out there?
Click to expand...
Don't talk to that guy anymore
 
I think this is not easy to answer. I recently launched into a 1600 ceiling flew about 15 minutes of "hard" IFR, another 15 minutes between layers and then got off the gauges at the FAF. This was in a plane with a little bit of glass and an over-glorified wing leveler that can sometimes track a heading. It would have been easier with full glass and a GFC, but I'm not sure about safer.

The next leg was punching up through a thin layer and then skimming the side of a cloud on an approach. That was no big deal.
 
In my opinion, the challenges in flying IFR are less with what's in the panel and more with our personal ADM... decisions on when and where to fly with respect to weather conditions (convection, freezing levels).
Wayne
 
asicer said:
I think this is not easy to answer. I recently launched into a 1600 ceiling flew about 15 minutes of "hard" IFR, another 15 minutes between layers and then got off the gauges at the FAF. This was in a plane with a little bit of glass and an over-glorified wing leveler that can sometimes track a heading. It would have been easier with full glass and a GFC, but I'm not sure about safer.

The next leg was punching up through a thin layer and then skimming the side of a cloud on an approach. That was no big deal.
Click to expand...
This flight was through a broken layer to get on top at 5000 ft most of the way then 7000 ft. Total actual IMC time was less than 10 mins if that. No sigmets or bad condition pireps.
 
wayneda40 said:
In my opinion, the challenges in flying IFR are less with what's in the panel and more with our personal ADM... decisions on when and where to fly with respect to weather conditions (convection, freezing levels).
Wayne
Click to expand...
I agree completely. I would say ADM is the most critical part of IFR flying. I am really a life long student and was thinking maybe I dont know what I dont know. This guy wouldnt elaborate more than the airplane is cheap and simple. lol
 
I trained, did the checkride and flew steam gauge airplanes w/o auto pilot in hard IFR for years and never bent anything.

Sounds to me as if this guy trying to make himself feel self important by belittling you and your ''simple airplane''...
 
ahmad said:
So I just got some very harsh feedback from a supposedly very experienced airline pilot about flying the family on an IFR flight to Chicago. First, he said I'm an idiot and reckless because I flew my family in a non IFR certified airplane. After I told him the aircraft is indeed IFR certified and that I did my checkride in it recently he changed his tone to "well, you keep flying that simple airplane with cheap instruments and you'll burn a hole on the ground soon enough "…
Click to expand...
Seems the ATP did some exercise in jumping to conclusions.

ahmad said:
…Ok, with all seriousness, I fly a C172 with a six pack and foreflight as back up?
Click to expand...
Other than potentially relying on FF’s virtual six pack, nothing wrong with a 172 in IMC. From a safety standpoint, your concerns should be whay the impact/likelihood and backups for various failures is.

Lets say the vac system goes on strike. Is there a standby AI (other than FF)? How proficient are you partial panel?

What about the alternator going out to lunch? Got a handheld that can be wired into the ship’s antenna and your headset? How proficent are your Lost Comms procedures? What else is impacted by the loss of that system and what are you required to do?

Part of IFR flying is redundant systems; the fewer redundancies, the fewer options you have; plan your decisions ahead of time so you can execute them in real time.
 
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TCABM… agree with your comments. If I were to get back into IFR flying I would want to make sure I have a backup to my GNC430W for navigation and communication. When I was training for my IR, I felt like I always did a better job with a failed AI, making use of the turn coordinator, and altimeter. Weird.
 
TCABM said:
Seems the ATP did some exercise in jumping to conclusions.


Other than potentially relying on FF’s virtual six pack, nothing wrong with a 172 in IMC. From a safety standpoint, your concerns should be is the impact/likelihood and backups for various failures.

Lets say the vac system goes on strike. Is there a standby AI (other than FF)? How proficient are you partial panel?

What about the alternator going out to lunch? Got a handheld that can be wired into the ship’s antenna and your headset? How proficent are your Lost Comms procedures? What else is impacted by the loss of that system and what are you required to do?

Part of IFR flying is redundant systems; the fewer redundancies, the fewer options you have; plan your decisions ahead of time so you can execute them in real time.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Excellent points.
I feel pretty comfortable with the partial panel if the vac system goes out actually because my CFI drilled that into my head. That was one thing we actually practiced a lot.
I do have a handheld radio with back up batteries for the handheld and it does plug into my headset.
 
ahmad said:
Thank you. Excellent points.
I feel pretty comfortable with the partial panel if the vac system goes out actually because my CFI drilled that into my head. That was one thing we actually practiced a lot.
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When was the last time you did a partial panel approach….we tend to lose proficiency fairly quickly, more importantly though, the AI doesn’t usually just roll over in real life. It slowly gets the leans, much like when you power it down. Identifying the failure is crucial.

ahmad said:
…I do have a handheld radio with back up batteries for the handheld and it does plug into my headset.
Click to expand...
Good. Think about the limitations that results in, especially with respect to ability to navigate and communicate. Have you ops checked the radio with ATC in the en route or terminal phase of a flight?
 
TCABM said:
When was the last time you did a partial panel approach….we tend to lose proficiency fairly quickly, more importantly though, the AI doesn’t usually just roll over in real life. It slowly gets the leans, much like when you power it down. Identifying the failure is crucial.


Good. Think about the limitations that results in, especially with respect to ability to navigate and communicate. Have you ops checked the radio with ATC in the en route or terminal phase of a flight?
Click to expand...


The last time I flew partial panel was during my checkride a month ago.

I have not checked the handheld en route or with ATC. Only checked it around the pattern at the airport. Will test it next time I am up there.
 
Unless you have redundant electrical systems I would not fly my family or friends in hard IFR. Might do it solo.

The partial panel practice you did during your training may not save you in a real world, hard IFR, stress-filled scenario.

Everything sounds easy until you get the sh** scared out of you in a real situation. Only then do you realize how serious these issues are
 
Lndwarrior said:
Unless you have redundant electrical systems I would not fly my family or friends in hard IFR. Might do it solo.

The partial panel practice you did during your training may not save you in a real world, hard IFR, stress-filled scenario.

Everything sounds easy until you get the sh** scared out of you in a real situation. Only then do you realize how serious these issues are
Click to expand...
Noted. I would not want to fly the family in hard IFR simply because I am too new. The only time I'd take them up with me is through broken layers and on top as was the case on this flight. Ceiling was at 4-5k and we went through a few IMC conditions that last a couple of mins at best.

I appreciate the words of wisdom on the last sentence.
 
As I get older I fly less IFR, I always enjoyed flying light IFR. I stated flying actual in an old Cessna with steam gauges. The 172 did have a wing leveler which helped .
 
When I first started flying in Alaska, we flew ''Alaska VFR'' (wink wink) in planes that were barely legal to fly VFR...

Hand held GPS units that were made for hiking, not aviation, were just coming out. No airport identifier, add lat and longs and hit GO. Not direct but GO. 1.5 inch screen that just had an arrow pointing in the right direction. Made up approaches were common.

But yeah, pilotage and ded reckoning was the norm back then. Looking for a check point in 1 mile vis really kept a pilot awake...
 
I would not let a person's status as an airline pilot grant them expert status alone. There are many airline pilots who haven't hand flown an airplane since their last sim check nor flown by steam gauge in decades. Many haven't set foot in a GA airplane since getting hired by an airline.

Not knocking all airline pilots by any means, just saying the ones that don't fly GA really don't have room to judge GA.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I would not let a person's status as an airline pilot grant them expert status alone. There are many airline pilots who haven't hand flown an airplane since their last sim check nor flown by steam gauge in decades. Many haven't set foot in a GA airplane since getting hired by an airline.

Not knocking all airline pilots by any means, just saying the ones that don't fly GA really don't have room to judge GA.
Click to expand...
Disagree on basically everything.
Most airline guys have done GA at some point, but how many strictly GA guys know the daily/monthly/annual flying and training of the airline guys world?
 
Kritchlow said:
Disagree on basically everything.
Most airline guys have done GA at some point, but how many strictly GA guys know the daily/monthly/annual flying and training of the airline guys world?
Click to expand...
Most have, but many of them are so far removed from it that they have no concept of the reality of it anymore. And the daily/monthly/annual training of the airline guy doesn’t include the fail-down modes that the OP would need to be proficient in.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Most have, but many of them are so far removed from it that they have no concept of the reality of it anymore. And the daily/monthly/annual training of the airline guy doesn’t include the fail-down modes that the OP would need to be proficient in.
Click to expand...
Fail-down modes? I suppose I can figure out what that means.
For many situations, the fail down mode in GA (excluding corporate part 25 airplanes), is working or not working. In more sophisticated airplanes, as you are aware, there are many in between options.
I guess I don’t understand your point.
If you have an alternator failure in a light airplane and are in hard IFR, you’re in a pickle… regardless if you are day 1 PP or Chuck Yeager.
 
Kritchlow said:
Fail-down modes? I suppose I can figure out what that means.
For many situations, the fail down mode in GA (excluding corporate part 25 airplanes), is working or not working. In more sophisticated airplanes, as you are aware, there are many in between options.
I guess I don’t understand your point.
If you have an alternator failure in a light airplane and are in hard IFR, you’re in a pickle… regardless if you are day 1 PP or Chuck Yeager.
Click to expand...
First off, if The OP’s flight was “hard IFR” to an airline pilot, I’m glad I don’t fly on the airlines.
ahmad said:
This flight was through a broken layer to get on top at 5000 ft most of the way then 7000 ft. Total actual IMC time was less than 10 mins if that. No sigmets or bad condition pireps.
Click to expand...
 
MauleSkinner said:
First off, if The OP’s flight was “hard IFR” to an airline pilot, I’m glad I don’t fly on the airlines.
Click to expand...
Well I think you knew what I was driving at.
For reference, I am not aware of any part 23 light airplanes that are certified beyond a cat I approach, whereas the Airbus is a cat IIIB airplane. I think we know what hard IFR is.
 
asicer said:
I think this is not easy to answer. I recently launched into a 1600 ceiling flew about 15 minutes of "hard" IFR, another 15 minutes between layers and then got off the gauges at the FAF. This was in a plane with a little bit of glass and an over-glorified wing leveler that can sometimes track a heading. It would have been easier with full glass and a GFC, but I'm not sure about safer.

The next leg was punching up through a thin layer and then skimming the side of a cloud on an approach. That was no big deal.
Click to expand...
I probably would have done the same, if there zero or near zero chance of icing. The key factor was, Wing leveler if I got overloaded with something unexpected it could give me a break to deal with what ever I needed to deal with and a 1600 foot ceiling is enough me to fall out and make an emergency landing in our "simple airplanes with cheap instruments" The 1600 foot ceiling I might have done up to about 15 minutes even without the wing leveler/autopilot but not much more I would prefer 10 minutes or less.

I wouldn't do much more than a departure or an approach, or punch through a small area of IMC without a wing leveler/autopilot for some sort, even it is another pilot or capable person .
Without a wing leveler autopilot of some sort about 5 minutes maybe 10 minutes is about the longest I want to be IMC. But there could be exceptions like I had a known easy out to VFR.

My understanding is an autopilot is required for IFR single pilot commercial operators, there are few if any are allowed to do single pilot IFR operations without an operable autopilot. It is just to easy to get distracted when continuously hand flying all the time.

And to what I originally said almost zero chance of Icing and adding thunderstorms to thinga avoid.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Kritchlow said:
Well I think you knew what I was driving at.
For reference, I am not aware of any part 23 light airplanes that are certified beyond a cat I approach, whereas the Airbus is a cat IIIB airplane. I think we know what hard IFR is.
Click to expand...
so why bring It up when it bears no relevance? That’s exactly the point I was making about airline pilots not understanding GA.
 
After I got my IR and didn’t fly in IMC or even “in the system” for a while, I learned how quickly proficiency is lost. I started setting personal minimums that matched my risk tolerance and matched my time commitment to proficiency. I use my IR to file IFR and fly without worry about scattered becoming broken, or a thin overcast layer that I need to punch through. I use my knowledge and skills to get through MVFR conditions that would have had me sitting on the ground or cancelling.

I flew hard IFR in training, and a couple times with glass - that was actually kind of “easy”. In my own plane I have a 6-pack, analog AP with no GPSS, and the latest GPS. While the slow lean of a dying AI is a potential gotcha, an alternator failure is my bigger fear - no turn coordinator, no HSI (I have backup DG), no radios, no nav (no GPS or VOR). I have a backup vacuum system but no electrical redundancy. That will keep me out of hard IFR and approaches anywhere close to minimums. Personal risk tolerance and it’s mine and only mine.

Risk tolerances of people are simply different, both in and outside of aviation. Motorcyclists must have a deathwish and airplanes just fall out of the sky. In the OP’s case, the ATP guy, while still a plane jockey, has less risk tolerance; Or maybe some of it is just that the ATP has seen more (like me knowing more than my young adult children).

Fly safe, spend life’s currency as you deem fit, but spend wisely.
 
Why did your friend assume that you had a non-IFR aircraft?

If you mentioned it to me, I’d say safe flight.

If you asked me whether or not it is safe, I’d question your experience and skills and then I’d further ask why you cannot wait for better weather?
 
Kritchlow said:
Disagree on basically everything.
Most airline guys have done GA at some point, but how many strictly GA guys know the daily/monthly/annual flying and training of the airline guys world?
Click to expand...
Nearly all airline pilots started out in GA, but for many it was just stepping stone. I know a few airline pilots that won't fly single pilot in anything, or are at least uncomfortable. The world of airline flying is night and day different than GA, and not all airline pilots continue to embrace GA. For many flying is a job, nothing more. On their days off they want to be as far from an airport as they can be.

As I said, doesn't apply to every airline pilot. But I would question they judgement of one that thinks flying a 172 with steam gauges is reckless.
 
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Kritchlow said:
Disagree on basically everything.
Most airline guys have done GA at some point, but how many strictly GA guys know the daily/monthly/annual flying and training of the airline guys world?
Click to expand...

Of all the airline pilots, that I know which admittedly isn’t as huge number is yours, because I’m not in the business, I only know one who owns his own GA plane. I have one friend who flies for United. He has only ever been certified in multi engine aircraft. Trained in TwinTurbo props in the Marine Corps. Then straight to C130 and then 737 and then 777. He would not know how to start my Arrow. I invited another pro pilot friend to go flying with me and he sneered and said ‘I only fly when I get paid.’
 
ahmad said:
So I just got some very harsh feedback from a supposedly very experienced airline pilot about flying the family on an IFR flight to Chicago. First, he said I'm an idiot and reckless because I flew my family in a non IFR certified airplane. After I told him the aircraft is indeed IFR certified and that I did my checkride in it recently he changed his tone to "well, you keep flying that simple airplane with cheap instruments and you'll burn a hole on the ground soon enough ".


Ouch. My feelings are hurt. I need to find my safe and comfort zone now and maybe even seek a therapist.

Ok, with all seriousness, I fly a C172 with a six pack and foreflight as back up. No autopilot and it is an old cessna. My cfi and DPE had no reservations on flying it IFR. I feel confident in my capabilities as a pilot but am I being too naive? I wish I had a cirrus and a much more fancier airplane but I don't. Heck, I bought a C150 for time building and it too is IFR certified.

What says you experienced pilots out there?
Click to expand...

It is lack of competence and not poor equipment that kills pilots. I know several airline pilots who fly long haul, and they admit they will probably kill themselves if they flew single-engine single-pilot IFR in a piston. Most safety related things are done for them by a dispatch crew - weather, weight and balance, fuel, alternates etc... Perhaps this guy is assuming he is the epitome of pilot skill, and you are clearly unskilled if you are not typed rated in a 787. Just ignore it.
 
mandm said:
Why did your friend assume that you had a non-IFR aircraft?

If you mentioned it to me, I’d say safe flight.

If you asked me whether or not it is safe, I’d question your experience and skills and then I’d further ask why you cannot wait for better weather?
Click to expand...

He really does not know the aircraft. He just spewed words out of his mouth.

I honestly did not worry about this flight at all before or en route because the weather brief was all clean info. No sigmets, not turb, no pireps. Just a broken layer early at 5000 ft then 6000 ft (so I had to go up to 7). I knew that I could get through the broken layer on top and stay on top all the way to chicago and then go through a broken layer for the approach. That's pretty much what I encountered but I did go through some real IMC conditions for 2 mins at a time here and there.

I really dont plan on taking passengers and family with me through hard IFR until I have had more experience doing it. But then I dont even want to put myself in danger thinking I really dont know what I dont know yet. Guess I am picking everyone's brain to learn as much as I can and to avoid things that I must.
 
ahmad said:
I do have a handheld radio with back up batteries for the handheld and it does plug into my headset.
Click to expand...
Just understand that if all you have is the little rubber antenna, your range will be quite limited.

Years ago I was flying from Kalamazoo to Central Wisconsin Airport when I learned I could receive, but not transmit on my installed radios, either one. I used my handheld to contact Muskegon Approach from 10,000 feet over Muskegon. I advised them I would not be able to transmit effectively once I got a few miles over Lake Michigan, but I could receive just fine.

I was able to complete the flight by using IDENT to acknowledge ATC instructions. When I got to the destination, within a few miles, the handheld worked fine.

It would have been much better if I had a way to plug into the airplane antenna instead of just using the rubber one on the handheld. And yes, I did have it plugged into my headset.
 
I have invited this guy to join us here but I doubt he will. I really hope he does. He is very concerned about every what if there is.

Below is what he wrote me about what concerns him.



If you don't understand the dangers of flying IFR in a aircraft with only 1 artificial horizon in it, and a very cheap one at that. With only a single engine that has no fuel duplication or any wing anti-ice or windshield anti-ice. Then you have never asked what if, what if my AH fails, will it even flag properly ? Probably not, the cheap ones just freeze. How will you detect it ? The answer is you wont, until its too late. Since you only have one. What if the engine fails, will you ever see the ground in time to even attempt a forced landing ? Chances are when you pop out, if you ever pop out, you wont have enough altitude to pull it off. What if you fly into icing, the wings wont take much, your airplane has a sewing machine for an engine. But I get a weather report you say. If you fly long enough you soon realize forecasts are just wishes. As in you better wish its accurate because flying your plane into icing is pretty much death. Ask a thousand pilots who has flown into icing that wasn't supposed to be there,
 
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