New Traffic Pattern

It's still called base. Just like the continuous turn from upwind to downwind is still called crosswind.
 
bobmrg said:
If I was high, all I had to do is feed in some top rudder and slip off the excess. I like this change (if the FAA deems it acceptable).

Bob Gardner
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That WILL kill a lot of people...not the slip, but the skid that too many pilots are ignorant enough to THINK is a slip.:eek:
 
register@teamandras.com said:
is that a normal technique under those circumstances?

One of my most uncomfortable experiences was trying to land at Agua Dulce (L70) in a 20+ tailwind


Can you elaborate more?

I've always had a difficult time of conceptualizing the difference between a slip and a skid.
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I'll let others detail the aerodynamic differences between a slip and a skid. The important thing is that a skiding stall can come with very little, if any, warning. The result can be an inverted airplane while low and on final.

The typical scenario, as I hinted in my post above is that the pilot will be turning on final, but overshooting. If the pilot is already in a somewhat steep bank, the tendency is to add more bottom rudder to point the plane back where they want to go. Along with this is the tendency to be a bit low since the plane has been descending while covering more real estate, so the pilot naturally pulls back on the yoke, while already at a slow airspeed. The combination of bank (increased stall speed), low speed and uncoordinated flight will result in the lower wing stalling while the upper wing is still flying. This results in a stall that can typically end up with the aircraft inverted.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That WILL kill a lot of people...not the slip, but the skid that too many pilots are ignorant enough to THINK is a slip.:eek:
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Not my first rodeo. I did not teach this technique to my students, but because of the adjacent big iron runway I insisted on an angled approach from base to short final.Overshoot and you go around...no questions, no argument.

Bob
 
Anymouse said:
BTW... Pretty sure this was a skid stall crash. Very graphic!!

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W T F

That guy was so far behind the plane, he probably survived the crash because he was still on the damn ground.

Comming in he hand plenty of energy, but just chit the bed half way in




Energy management done right


Note the position chicken hanging off his mirror, smooth operator
 
What's hard is that one in a 100 times when the tower hasn't changed the pattern around and you get a tailwind. "Request you turn the runway around so I can land into the wind" or some such request. Get it turned around guys!!
Pilots tend not to because they figure the tower is on top of it. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.....
 
Oh no, we haven't had a discussion about round or squared pattern in at least 6 months !
 
cowman said:
I actually would challenge any fixed wing pilot to achieve a truly square corner anywhere.
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Challenge accepted

1018110.jpg


BTW...Continuous turn off the 180 until rolling out in the groove. I teach the rectangle to my civ studs, but I dislike it.
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
Can you elaborate more?

I've always had a difficult time of conceptualizing the difference between a slip and a skid.
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The most basic difference revolves around the way Bob phrased it..."top rudder" is a slip, "bottom rudder" is a skid.

They're both generally cross-controlled maneuvers, but a slip is typically lowering a wing with aileron and applying top rudder, i.e., left wing down with aileron, and right rudder. I see a lot of pilots applying rudder and then trying to pick up the wing with aileron, which makes it "bottom rudder", i.e., left rudder, the left wing drops, and applying right aileron to try and pick it back up again.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Can you elaborate more?

I've always had a difficult time of conceptualizing the difference between a slip and a skid.
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A slip is cross controls. Left aileron/right rudder or right aileron/left rudder. A skid is to much rudder/not enough aileron in the same direction. Both are uncoordinated flight. In a slip the higher wing stalls first. In a skid the lower wing stalls first. That's the killer. In a slip when the high wing stalls the first thing that happens is it starts rolling the wing back to level. You have a second or two to react and get coordinated before it spins. In a skid, when the lower wing stalls it gets into spin right away. You can't spin a slipping airplane (typical ones, maybe some exotic wing configurations will, I dunno.). It has to unslip first.
 
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One way...

A skid is too little bank for the rate of turn.

A slip is too much bank for the rate of turn.

Or...

A skid is too much rate of turn for the bank angle.

A slip is too little rate of turn for the bank angle.

(Different ways of saying the same thing)

As an aside, "forward" and "side" slips are aerodynamically identical. The only difference is the path over the ground.
 
while we're on the subject I'm wondering what effect which wing has the stall warning device has on how much warning you get. Is the difference between warning and stall like 10 knots in one direction but say 15 in the other?
 
luvflyin said:
while we're on the subject I'm wondering what effect which wing has the stall warning device has on how much warning you get. Is the difference between warning and stall like 10 knots in one direction but say 15 in the other?
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You mean between slip and skid? depends which wing is going to stall first and where the stall warning sensor is located.
 
James331 said:
W T F

That guy was so far behind the plane, he probably survived the crash because he was still on the damn ground.

Comming in he hand plenty of energy, but just chit the bed half way in

Energy management done right


Note the position chicken hanging off his mirror, smooth operator
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Cool vid! 2'20" from last man out til he touches down. I'm just curious how he avoids mincing meat bombs on his way down and on the downwind. Is he down so fast they're still a thousand feet above?
 
iflyvfr said:
Cool vid! 2'20" from last man out til he touches down. I'm just curious how he avoids mincing meat bombs on his way down and on the downwind. Is he down so fast they're still a thousand feet above?
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He's not flying through his jump run, he's probably inside of it for his decent and further away from the last jumper out, if that makes sense.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You mean between slip and skid? depends which wing is going to stall first and where the stall warning sensor is located.
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Let's go with skid because that's the crucial situation. Stall warning device is on the left wing. Is the difference between warning and stall different depending on whether you're skidding to the left or the right?
 
luvflyin said:
while we're on the subject I'm wondering what effect which wing has the stall warning device has on how much warning you get. Is the difference between warning and stall like 10 knots in one direction but say 15 in the other?
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Actually, where the stall warning sensor is located is pretty much immaterial. With a skidding stall, you don't get a buffet warning you that the stall in near, or at least not much of one if any. It just happens.
 
@register@teamandras.com, Skidding is what happens when you are driving a car and go around the corner too fast. Not enough bank for rate of turn. It's the same feeling in an airplane, only you are able to correct it by banking. You can't usually bank a car driving on a flat road...
 
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iflyvfr said:
Cool vid! 2'20" from last man out til he touches down. I'm just curious how he avoids mincing meat bombs on his way down and on the downwind. Is he down so fast they're still a thousand feet above?
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That probably depends on how brave the jumpers are. I'd bet the jumper beats him down if they pull the ripcord at the last second.
 
luvflyin said:
Let's go with skid because that's the crucial situation. Stall warning device is on the left wing. Is the difference between warning and stall different depending on whether you're skidding to the left or the right?
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The wing that stalls first will have, by definition, a higher angle of attack. How much? I don't know.
 
Anymouse said:
I'll let others detail the aerodynamic differences between a slip and a skid. The important thing is that a skiding stall can come with very little, if any, warning. The result can be an inverted airplane while low and on final.

The typical scenario, as I hinted in my post above is that the pilot will be turning on final, but overshooting. If the pilot is already in a somewhat steep bank, the tendency is to add more bottom rudder to point the plane back where they want to go. Along with this is the tendency to be a bit low since the plane has been descending while covering more real estate, so the pilot naturally pulls back on the yoke, while already at a slow airspeed. The combination of bank (increased stall speed), low speed and uncoordinated flight will result in the lower wing stalling while the upper wing is still flying. This results in a stall that can typically end up with the aircraft inverted.
Click to expand...

As a short time student with a lot of learning ahead of me, and lots of concepts to take in I am always looking for anything that can be a hard and fast rule. I know I am going to get feedback that this is wrong in some situations but that a stall always needs to be corrected by nose down to change angle of attack.
Here also, I'm looking for a rule that could be "you never jog or try to change heading by using the rudder alone" could that be my holy grail of a constant always correct rule?
 
luvflyin said:
That probably depends on how brave the jumpers are. I'd bet the jumper beats him down if they pull the ripcord at the last second.
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Normally the fun jumpers go first, and even if they are belly flying, you got maybe 60 seconds of free fall from 13k, much less if you're doing flips or head down, now if they pull at a 2-3k and swoop, or do any fun canopy stuff, you got say another minute or so under canopy, no while all this is occurring the pilot is still on jump run, and if they have a turbine, chances are they are also dropping tandems, so the chance of you beating ALL the jumpers down is near zero, shy of everyone on the load doing high pulls.
 
LongRoadBob said:
As a short time student with a lot of learning ahead of me, and lots of concepts to take in I am always looking for anything that can be a hard and fast rule. I know I am going to get feedback that this is wrong in some situations but that a stall always needs to be corrected by nose down to change angle of attack.
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I'm not an instructor, and I don't always explain things as fully or clearly as they should, but...

Pushing the yoke forward will almost always get you out of a stall condition. Even if you're inverted. In a nutshell, what you're trying to do is take the load factor off the plane, which in turn lowers your stall speed. So, if yourself in a upset situation, pushing the nose down can quite often be the first step to getting control of the aircraft and recovering.

All that being said, I would encourage anyone to get some upset recovery training. Doing so can show you 1.) how avoid situations that would upset the aircraft (like the skid stall we're talking about), and 2.) How to recover when the aircraft does get upset (wake turbulence, etc.). It's well worth the money.
 
Avoid skidding turns on base and final. Check the airspeed AND Ball !!!

Bank that airplane to make those corrections on final. Keep it coordinated even though close to the ground....
 
coloradobluesky said:
Avoid skidding turns on base and final. Check the airspeed AND Ball !!!

Bank that airplane to make those corrections on final. Keep it coordinated even though close to the ground....
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Also RELAX your back, you should be able to FEEL the ball, with a relaxed back you should not feel the plane wanting to make you lean, the way you lean is where the ball is. Sometimes you won't have the luxury of being able to stare at a ball to tell you if you're coordinated.
 
luvflyin said:
while we're on the subject I'm wondering what effect which wing has the stall warning device has on how much warning you get. Is the difference between warning and stall like 10 knots in one direction but say 15 in the other?
Click to expand...

If you have to rely on a mechanical device to warn of an impending stall you need additional training.

Bob
 
MauleSkinner said:
The wing that stalls first will have, by definition, a higher angle of attack. How much? I don't know.
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Yeah. If you're making the skidding turn to the right in an airplane with the stall warner on the left wing there will be less warning than if making the turn to the left.
 
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