New Traffic Pattern Advisory Circular
- Thread starter Palmpilot
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- ac 90-66 traffic pattern
hankrausch
Pre-takeoff checklist
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GoodbyePOA
I wonder what is the best, and they other hand i have seen and been cut off too many times by guys crossing midfield at TPA and then just joining the pattern
Getting cut off wouldn't bother me, he is coming from your left, you can see him and you have time to throttle down and jog to the right to let him get in.
As I read it, the AC doesn’t say NOT to use color, just don’t use it instead of N#. Nothing wrong with “Yellow cub 123BG on downwind for 27” or whatever.
As for entering on the “wrong” side, doing a 45 entry to the upwind seems to me a good option as it gives a view of the pattern and runway plus allows an easy abort by simply turning away from the field.
As for entering on the “wrong” side, doing a 45 entry to the upwind seems to me a good option as it gives a view of the pattern and runway plus allows an easy abort by simply turning away from the field.
I wonder what is the best, and they other hand i have seen and been cut off too many times by guys crossing midfield at TPA and then just joining the pattern
The right-hand side of Figure 1 says that a pilot on a mild-field crossover entry should yield to traffic on a 45 degree entry. Of course, if he fails to do so, you have to do what you have to do to avoid a collision.
Good point.
WannFly
Final Approach
I am just going to stop talking to anyone in non towered filed and do whatever entry I feel like that day. Seem to be the norm anyway. Look out for a white Cherokee with red stripes on the stabilator over white tundra. Good luck
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I had one last week. I fly out of KGVL and the Army Rangers were doing drops northwest of the airport at 3 different locations. When I got to the airport, the drop plane was parked at the FBO.
OkieFlyer
En-Route
Though I like the midfield entry at my home drome and usual stomping grounds, I would concede that crosswind entry at the departure end is probably much better if it's a very busy pattern. If I ever thought I would come close to cutting someone off, I would not enter there. It's rarely busy where I fly, so midfield works fine 99% of the time.
Yeah, when there's nobody else around, it really doesn't matter much what you do. In that situation, I've even been known to turn crosswind before the end of the runway if I think it will contribute to noise abatement.
SoCal RV Flyer
En-Route
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SoCal RV Flyer
I like the teardrop to the 45 approach, but I'm usually 1000' above TPA. I've never had an issue with reacquiring the airport if I'm far enough away when I start my descending turn...do it too close and it's easier to lose your bearings. Not the quickest way down to be sure, but I'm never in a rush.
A lot has to do with your comfort level....many ways to skin this particular cat.
A lot has to do with your comfort level....many ways to skin this particular cat.
N3368K
Cleared for Takeoff
I’ll do the teardrop entry from above TPA in my RV. I can load it up in a turn which helps bleed off speed. In my Cub, I’ll typically cross mid field and enter.
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Any technique will fail you if you fail to visually identify and avoid aircraft. What I would do changes based on what is happening at the airport so that I can keep conflicts to a minimum. I fly a pattern that gives me the best visual on all the aircraft in the pattern so that I can avoid them.
If I see and hear nothing and I am coming from the “wrong” side then I will typically position myself on the crosswind over the departure end as that gives me the best ability to see what is happening. I will then avoid aircraft as appropriate.
You can’t avoid if you can’t see. So seeing is the important thing. From there do whatever you need to do to avoid swapping paint.
A perfect regulatory pattern isn’t always the answer. If you see something that requires you do something else well then that’s what needs to be done.
The approach I make most often at my home field is an "45-to-upwind" entry (not mentioned in the AC). Frankly, it gives me the best chance to see both the traffic, the windsock, and the obstructions (lawn mowing) that may be going on the ground. If there is other traffic departing the runway, I have a good shot at seeing it before it rises into the pattern where we intersect.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
The problem I have with a crosswind entry or turning crosswind from upwind for landing at the departure end of the runway is that you are in an area of potential conflict with an aircraft that is in a nose high attitude, with limited visibility, it is in a high workload phase of flight. Crossing mid field eliminates this issue, hopefully you are talking, you have advised what you are going to do in advance, and others are talking. You need to look left, right and straight ahead for traffic not talking, but you shouldn't have to worry about a jet rocketing toward you from below. It just seems safer to me. Finally, in this age of $150 basic hand held transceivers, no one should be flying without a radio.
But you trade that potential conflict for a potential conflict with the FAA's preferred 45 degree entry, which is nearly head-on with you and therefore harder to see and at a high rate of closure.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes, hopefully people are talking, but you are correct, ideally I'm looking for someone at or near pattern altitude at that point who is hopefully looking for me too rather than someone climbing into me who for all intents and purposes doesn't expect me to be there if I'm crosswind at the departure end.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Unless they went around early from a bad approach or a practice one. Have seen both types of conflicts happen right at midfield before.
It used to be that people doing the FAA-preferred 45-degree entry weren't expecting to meet conflicting traffic nearly head-on at a high closure rate. Now, I don't think anybody knows what to expect. As for jets with a high rate of climb, those are usually larger, and thus easier to spot, and traffic flying at right-angles to you presents a larger visual profile than traffic approaching nearly head-on. The mind tends to become aware of objects more readily if they are moving in your field of vision than if they're not, which also makes right-angle traffic easier to spot.
Everyone has their own opinion about which hazards are more likely to be a problem. I don't think there's any way to settle the argument, because there are probably no data sufficient to do so.
John Collins
En-Route
Midfield entry at pattern altitude works for me. I am not as worried about head on between crossing midfield and 45 entry to downwind as both aircraft have a good view of each other and landing lights help. Having to maneuver to avoid each other is success. I am worried about someone climbing or descending on to me from behind. Most accidents are on final where a faster aircraft descends onto the slower one ahead and below. a crosswind entry can put me and a climbing aircraft on the same path, with one or both of us not able to see the other. I also want something to use to contact the other aircraft, so the aircraft type, and last three of the N number or even a color works for me.
Leo
Pre-Flight
I have a questions:
In USA, are we see this often or rarely this approach?
From upwind crossings midfield +500 ft pattern drop altitude in the “live side” 2 miles out from the downwind side entering 45 to downwind.
Question 2 : “wrong side” = upwind side?
I like entering crosswind midfield pattern altitude.
Thanks
In USA, are we see this often or rarely this approach?
From upwind crossings midfield +500 ft pattern drop altitude in the “live side” 2 miles out from the downwind side entering 45 to downwind.
Question 2 : “wrong side” = upwind side?
I like entering crosswind midfield pattern altitude.
Thanks
I have a questions:
In USA, are we see this often or rarely this approach?
From upwind crossings midfield +500 ft pattern drop altitude in the “live side” 2 miles out from the downwind side entering 45 to downwind.
Question 2 : “wrong side” = upwind side?
I like entering crosswind midfield pattern altitude.
Thanks
“Wrong side” = the non-pattern side of the runway
dell30rb
Final Approach
For the same reasons others have stated I don't think this is a good idea. Many light high performance singles will reach pattern altitude right about that point you are entering. And they won't be expecting another aircraft to make a crosswind entry at that point on the field. Neither will anyone coming in on a 45deg entry.
Entering at midfield puts you out of reach for any aircraft taking off at either end of the field.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Light and Sporty Guy
Why use 100 words when you can stretch it out to 18 pages...
FWIW, the closest I have ever come to another aircraft in flight was when someone was "entering" the pattern on a "45" by making a 220ish degree turn in the middle of the downwind leg. (Can't go beyond the downwind on account of there being a forign country right there.)
FWIW, the closest I have ever come to another aircraft in flight was when someone was "entering" the pattern on a "45" by making a 220ish degree turn in the middle of the downwind leg. (Can't go beyond the downwind on account of there being a forign country right there.)
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
You position here so that you can see what the hell is going on. If you see an aircraft departing that will be a conflict then you maneuver as appropriate to avoid.
It does not matter which way you enter the pattern a conflict is possible. There is no non-conflict entry path. What’s important is that you enter in a way that gives you the best visual on the environment so that you can avoid airplanes.
orange
Line Up and Wait
There are not many non-towered fields where I trained. But one of the CFI's used to tell us not to say our tail number when flying into a nearby non-towered field because there was a guy listening and writing down the tails to send them bills for landing fees. " Blue/white Piper Cherokee..."
denverpilot
Tied Down
Chip Sylverne
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
Came as close as I ever have to trading paint today. We have a right hand pattern. I was climbing out, reached 1000' AGL, turned for a crosswind departure to the right. Wing blocked my view to the left. Must have just started receiving the ads--B tower, because Ads-b gave a +300 1 mile traffic alert. Catch out of the corner of my eye a Malibu screaming "on a 45" descending into the pattern at the departure end numbers.Push the nose down and turn left hard. The airplane passed about 200' above. He never saw me.
Without the traffic alert and location icon, might have been a really bad day. Be careful out there, and install ads-B! And FFS, if you're going to announce, try and be accurate about your intentions.
Without the traffic alert and location icon, might have been a really bad day. Be careful out there, and install ads-B! And FFS, if you're going to announce, try and be accurate about your intentions.
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mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Leo
Pre-Flight
WOW pretty amazing! Why crosswind at departure end it’s high potential risk of collisions.I wonder if FAA blessings this! Maybe it’s me I missing something... because I’ve never seen this approach in literature! Conclusion put you head and wings on the swevell.