New rules coming to fight pilots' fatigue?

letting pilots sleep in the crew room at the airport would be a good start. it sure is a complicated formula though, and the problem is fatigue is a very individual phenomenon. we all can function with very different levels of rest.
 
One of the ironies of this is dispatchers are limited to 10 hours of duty by FAR. One can only imagine how stressful and fatiguing it can be sitting there behind a computer in a cubicle.
 
The other part is that it's hard to regulate people's personal lives. Just because they are in a rest period doesn't mean they are sleeping or even resting.
 
These quotes from the article caught my attention.
It's not clear where the captain of Flight 3407 slept the night before the crash, but it appears he may have tried to nap in a busy airport crew room where his company — regional carrier Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va., which operated the flight for Continental — kept bright lights on to discourage extended sleeping.
Click to expand...
Seems that doing something to discourageresting is counter-productive.

The first officer commuted overnight from her home near Seattle to Newark, N.J., to make the flight to Buffalo.
The fatigue committee put aside the question of whether such long-distance commutes — a cherished prerogative of flight crews — contribute to fatigue and should be restricted.
Click to expand...
I know a certain FO whose commute isn't that far, but he drives over 5 hours rather than deadheading, so the actual time may be similar. It isn't clear to me whether the first officer had an opportunity to rest after her commute. I know that my friend has that opportunity, at least sometimes.
 
Last edited:
Us truck drivers have always had it better than pilots, even more so since a major rule change in 2004 (which has since been changed twice in a much more minor fashion).

Among other rules pertaining to multi-day periods, our days have an "11-hour rule" and a "14-hour rule". We can drive a total of 11 hours, and after 14 clock hours have passed since our first driving *or* on-duty-not-driving activity, we can no longer drive. So, for example, if I were to fuel my truck at 8 AM, and then go in and have breakfast and a shower and not start driving until 10 AM, take an hour lunch break and an hour dinner break, I'd have to stop driving at 10 PM even though I would have only driven 10 hours, since my 14-hour clock would be up (8 AM + 14 hr = 10 PM). The only way to get a new 11/14 is to take an uninterrupted 10-hour break, which allows for 8 hours of sleep, a meal and a shower. Or if you're a champion sleeper like me, 10 hours of sleep. ;)

As I understand it, pilots only (generally) get an 8-hour break, but that's chocks to pushback - All the time spent buttoning up the plane, doing paperwork, riding the hotel shuttle, checking in, schlepping stuff, riding the shuttle back to the airport, preflighting, etc. is part of the "break" meaning that they're not getting anywhere near 8 hours of sleep. (Please correct me!)

While I'm not a big fan of over-regulation, I can tell you that the switch from the old rules (which allowed 10 hours of driving, 15 hours of driving + on duty, and NO "clock" - any off duty time basically just paused your day) made a HUGE difference in the way things worked for drivers. And that's all I'm gonna post in public. :eek:
 
Yeah, but they have to do all that thinking. All pilots have to do is fly the plane.
Rotor&Wing said:
One of the ironies of this is dispatchers are limited to 10 hours of duty by FAR. One can only imagine how stressful and fatiguing it can be sitting there behind a computer in a cubicle.
Click to expand...
 
This is one of former airline pilot and union leader Randy Babbitt's hot-button items -- expect the FAA to press industry extremely hard on it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
As I understand it, pilots only (generally) get an 8-hour break, but that's chocks to pushback - All the time spent buttoning up the plane, doing paperwork, riding the hotel shuttle, checking in, schlepping stuff, riding the shuttle back to the airport, preflighting, etc. is part of the "break" meaning that they're not getting anywhere near 8 hours of sleep. (Please correct me!)
Click to expand...
I can only answer for myself (we are Part 135) but we clock out 1/2 hour after we block in unless there are other extenuating circumstances, and we clock in at our show time which is usually one hour before departure. It's not block in to block out. We also get 10 hours rest, not eight. Of course these days it's possible to get 10 days rest...
 
when i was doing pt. 135 work we started duty time 1/2 hr before departure and ended at arrival at the final destination for the day. that is how our POI interpreted it for us and we all were fine with that. I suspect that if you lined up 10 POI's you'd get 11 opinions on when duty time starts and ends.
 
In the org I was flying for, we clocked on 2 hrs before scheduled dept time, and clocked off 1/2 hr after arrival.
But then there is the difference between duty time and flight time.
 
Everskyward said:
Something definitely needs to be done about these issues but I'm wondering if there will be unintended consequences, especially for commuting pilots.
Click to expand...
I think you can count on it. Problem has always been that the cost of living in major metro areas (where hubs are) is higher, so folks will live in the cheaper areas and commute by air.

Other professions have that trouble - and lots of folks basically end up giving up extra days for their commute. But I'd bet that most of the folks I see doing the major commutes make significantly more money than the regional airline pilots.
 
TMetzinger said:
Problem has always been that the cost of living in major metro areas (where hubs are) is higher, so folks will live in the cheaper areas and commute by air.
Click to expand...
I think people commute for many more reasons than the cost of living. One of the major benefits of being an airline pilot is that you can live basically anywhere there is service. I know a number of senior captains who commute, and it's not because they can't afford to live at their base, they just choose not to do so. Didn't Sully commute from the Bay Area in CA (not the cheapest area to live) to somewhere in the mid east coast?
 
I understand the intent of rules regarding fatigue, but everyone is different. I can fly or drive for long amounts of time in a day and it's not a problem, well past whatever limits would exist in the paid world. I also have friends who've fallen asleep at the wheel repeatedly (you'd think after the first time they'd get the idea).

It seems to me that one of the big advantages for truckers (at least, my view when I was hauling stuff around) was that when my engine shuts off, I go to bed. That starter will outlast the rest of the truck, since when I was driving I'd start it in the morning and it wouldn't shut off until I was ready to go to bed. But I woke up, took a shower, hopped in the truck, and got going. It was parked right outside of the motel (I was driving a Dodge Ram, not a Freightliner with a sleeper cab). When I was done for the day, I checked into the hotel, shut off the truck, and went to bed after checking my eMails and making some phone calls. Commute? What commute?
 
TMetzinger said:
I think you can count on it. Problem has always been that the cost of living in major metro areas (where hubs are) is higher, so folks will live in the cheaper areas and commute by air.
Click to expand...

Airline pilots commute for a number of reasons. I've been a commuter for 23 years now.

One of the best reasons to commute for an airline job is the insecurity the airline business now brings. Base openings and base closings are the norm now. I know several associates in the business that have uprooted their family and moved to a base only to have the company close it several months later and have them bid to a new base. Over at UPS there is a major upheaval going on that has several crewmembers getting displaced to such places as Anchorage.

Add also in the economy and pilot's that are unable to sell their homes, take their kids out of school or have their wife (or husband) quit a good paying job are not going to happen.

The problem in the Airline industry is not commuting pilots, but rather archaic rest and duty rules that make them "legal" to fly a trip.
 
My point is not that there's anything wrong with commuting, but that when new rules come out that tighten up on minimum rest, that commuters may have to leave home earlier so that they can get to their base and get minimum rest. This means more time away from home. This may mean more tension on marriages, etc, etc...
 
Rotor&Wing said:
The problem in the Airline industry is not commuting pilots, but rather archaic rest and duty rules that make them "legal" to fly a trip.
Click to expand...
So would you make commuting time a part of duty, or a least not rest? How would this be handled with scheduling? In the example used in the article both pilots commuted in overnight before their first flight (at least that's how I read it). As far as the airline was concerned they had been "resting" for a few days. I'm just curious how you would regulate this. I have no personal stake in this because I am not allowed to commute. In the infrequent instance we need to reposition by airline we are on duty for that time in addition to having a purchased ticket.
 
Everskyward said:
So would you make commuting time a part of duty, or a least not rest? How would this be handled with scheduling? In the example used in the article both pilots commuted in overnight before their first flight (at least that's how I read it). As far as the airline was concerned they had been "resting" for a few days. I'm just curious how you would regulate this. I have no personal stake in this because I am not allowed to commute. In the infrequent instance we need to reposition by airline we are on duty for that time in addition to having a purchased ticket.
Click to expand...

I don't see "regulating" commuting, although I'm sure the ATA would like to see it. The crux of the problem in the industry is the duty and flight time rules that need overhauled. This becomes a complex issue that would be hard for many reading here to understand without going into page after page of explanation. Back side of the clock, stand up overnights, day/night transitions and multiple time zone crossings all need to be addressed. The current rules allow much abuse and when a pilot questions an assignment he or she is usually met with "It's legal". Have a FedEx pilot tell you what their schedules started looking like when the company introduced a scheduling program called the "Optimizer" (which became known there as the "sodimizer").

The NTSB has made numerous recommendations concerning fatigue and duty time just to be ignored by the FAA. The ATA has a strong lobby with the FAA and they do not want to see a change to these rules. Now that Randy Babbit is running the FAA perhaps we will finally see some constructive changes.

We shall see.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I don't see "regulating" commuting, although I'm sure the ATA would like to see it. The crux of the problem in the industry is the duty and flight time rules that need overhauled. This becomes a complex issue that would be hard for many reading here to understand without going into page after page of explanation. Back side of the clock, stand up overnights, day/night transitions and multiple time zone crossings all need to be addressed. The current rules allow much abuse and when a pilot questions an assignment he or she is usually met with "It's legal". Have a FedEx pilot tell you what their schedules started looking like when the company introduced a scheduling program called the "Optimizer" (which became known there as the "sodimizer").
Click to expand...
I understand the difficulties above and agree that they need to be addressed. However, the accident which is used as an example whenever you read about it in the press had nothing to do with a scheduling issue on the part of the airline. True, the FO should have been able to call in sick without fear of punishment but doesn't change the fact that the airline had nothing to do with either her or the captain commuting in overnight and not getting enough, or any sleep. That's why I think commuting will be one of the things that will be evaluated.
 
Oh, they could regulate it, all right -- just stop the rest clock when you check in for any air carrier flight, not just the one you're flying. I just don't think they'll be able to make that rule happen.
 
Ron Levy said:
Oh, they could regulate it, all right -- just stop the rest clock when you check in for any air carrier flight, not just the one you're flying. I just don't think they'll be able to make that rule happen.
Click to expand...

You can't regulate what someone does on their off time. If they were to go that route, then how do you regulate the guy that drives 4 hours to base to begin a 3 day trip? Or the guy that flies his private airplane in to begin a trip sequence.

Trying to regulate pilot's commuting to work is just masking the real problem which is trip and duty time rules.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Trying to regulate pilot's commuting to work is just masking the real problem which is trip and duty time rules.
Click to expand...
I see them as two separate issues with similar consequences but I agree with you that it would be difficult to regulate. Besides I'm sure that regulating commuting would have both the airlines and the pilots united in opposition.
 
Everskyward said:
I see them as two separate issues with similar consequences but I agree with you that it would be difficult to regulate. Besides I'm sure that regulating commuting would have both the airlines and the pilots united in opposition.
Click to expand...

The various airline's management likes having the vagueness of the FAR's on Duty and Rest times. They are very opposed to seeing tightening of the regulations based upon a few factors, the first being if the times are more defined this will lead to requiring more crewmembers to fulfill the schedule.

Secondly, the airlines like having the pilot's negotiate for Duty and Rest in their CBA's. It's a bargaining chip.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You can't regulate what someone does on their off time.
Click to expand...
Some companies (not major carriers) do -- you must live within x hours travel of your base. Don't like it? Find another job. 'Course, those companies don't have the unions the major carriers do, either, so they can enforce it. But as long as pilots live a thousand miles from their base and make many-hour journeys immediately before reporting for duty, they're going to have trouble making the case for shorter duty days. However, the issue of minimum rest between duty periods is another story entirely, and with the scientific evidence available today, Administrator Babbitt (an apparantly polished politician) shouldn't have much trouble dropping the hammer on the airlines and convincing Congress to make it stick -- and I hope he does.

The Air Force required a minimum 12 hours rest from walking out of the squadron to walking back in for flight duty, and this was sacrosanct -- you couldn't even call someone during the period if that would leave them with less than 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. OTOH, I've seen airline crews get only 8 hours to leave the airport, go to the hotel, check in, get to their room, sleep, get up, get showered and dressed, check out, and get back to the airport -- leaving them as little as 5-6 hours of actual sleep time. Do that three nights in a row, and you've got some serious cumulative fatigue issues. That's gotta stop, and I think Mr. Babbitt is the first Administrator in a while who really understands that.
 
Ron Levy said:
The Air Force required a minimum 12 hours rest from walking out of the squadron to walking back in for flight duty, and this was sacrosanct -- you couldn't even call someone during the period if that would leave them with less than 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. OTOH, I've seen airline crews get only 8 hours to leave the airport, go to the hotel, check in, get to their room, sleep, get up, get showered and dressed, check out, and get back to the airport -- leaving them as little as 5-6 hours of actual sleep time. Do that three nights in a row, and you've got some serious cumulative fatigue issues. That's gotta stop, and I think Mr. Babbitt is the first Administrator in a while who really understands that.
Click to expand...

The Air Force is a Not for Profit Organization. The airlines have a powerful lobby called the ATA and they will lobby congress to keep any changes from happening and affecting the airlines bottom line. Revised FAR's will make the airlines hire more crewmembers and also take away an important bargaining chip for CBA negotiations.

I've never been overly impressed with Randy Babbit but perhaps he will be able to pull this off.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top