New purchase suggestions!

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Shane C

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Pielut
Heya fellas,

I figured I'd start a new thread with more details of what I'm looking for since that's kinda what my last thread was turning in to. I appreciate everyone's input so far!

I have a cash budget of $30-40k
Want something with retractable gear to help with the speed.
Flying mostly myself and wife. Would love to take a couple friends on dates, but I'm realizing I shouldn't buy a plane based on those parameters.

I have 130 hours under my belt, IFR trained but never took my check ride, cause I'm an idiot lol.
I'd like to get that done though. I'll be getting my complex endorsement here soon.

Also looking for something 180 hp or more. I have to fly to Los Angeles from Portland once in a while, so I'd prefer to make that trip as short as possible. I wanna travel the country, comfortably with my wife, baby, and maybe my pup. Just bought my Restricted Radio permit to fly to Canada too! Whoop!

Not sure what other details I need to include...

*forgot to mention I want a low wing!*
 
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Piper Arrow 180HP version. Not sure you can pick one up in great condition at 30-40k. I haven’t looked to see what the Covid-adjusted GA airplane prices are though. You may be able to find someone looking to offload one.

if you finish your IFR rating, insurance will be much cheaper BTW
 
Arob16 said:
Piper Arrow 180HP version. Not sure you can pick one up in great condition at 30-40k. I haven’t looked to see what the Covid-adjusted GA airplane prices are though. You may be able to find someone looking to offload one.

if you finish your IFR rating, insurance will be much cheaper BTW
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Yeah I've been waiting for these prices to come down some!

I did not know that about the insurance. Thank you for that!
 
I'm really not trying to squash your dreams, but ... 30-40K is probably not going to get you what you are you describing (Portland to LA, most likely IFR required, decent speed and legs...) unless you are also planning to invest in solid improvements every year. You would be better off looking to spend 60-80. Yearly costs will be lower and capabilities will be higher. If you do stay with your budget, look for a solid M20C.
 
GeorgeC said:
M20C or M20E.
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This is what I was going to suggest. You can find a decent C or E model for that price range. Finding one that is IFR is reasonable, but don't expect a Garmin 750 to be in it. Biggest difference being that the C is 180HP carbureted and the E model is fuel injected. Both are short body Mooneys. Mooneys are extremely efficient and don't burn a lot of fuel. The short body Mooneys (A-E models) don't have a lot of space in the back seat. I've gotten three adults in mine but it was tight.

JEB said:
I'm really not trying to squash your dreams, but ... 30-40K is probably not going to get you what you are you describing (Portland to LA, most likely IFR required, decent speed and legs...) unless you are also planning to invest in solid improvements every year. You would be better off looking to spend 60-80. Yearly costs will be lower and capabilities will be higher. If you do stay with your budget, look for a solid M20C.
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I found mine for that price range that was fully IFR capable, less an IFR certified GPS. I've flown it across the country several times. I agree that if he can bump up his budget he's likely to find more options, but he can find something suitable for his mission within that range.
 
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I wanted constant speed prop, retract, and 200hp or more. Wanted to spend 30K-40K. I considered many different aircraft types, bought a Navion. Cruises at 130-140kias. Being in the Florida heat, its sure nice to taxi with the canopy open and the prop wash coming in!
 
LevelWing said:
This is what I was going to suggest. You can find a decent C or E model for that price range. Finding one that is IFR is reasonable, but don't expect a Garmin 750 to be in it. Biggest difference being that the C is 180HP carbureted and the E model is fuel injected. Both are short body Mooneys. Mooneys are extremely efficient and don't burn a lot of fuel. The short body Mooneys (A-E models) don't have a lot of space in the back seat. I've gotten three adults in mine but it was tight.

I found mine for that price range that was fully IFR capable, less an IFR certified GPS. I've flown it across the country several times. I agree that if he can bump up his budget he's likely to find more options, but if can find something suitable for his mission within that range.
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So we agree then - right?
 
JEB said:
I'm really not trying to squash your dreams, but ... 30-40K is probably not going to get you what you are you describing (Portland to LA, most likely IFR required, decent speed and legs...) unless you are also planning to invest in solid improvements every year. You would be better off looking to spend 60-80. Yearly costs will be lower and capabilities will be higher. If you do stay with your budget, look for a solid M20C.
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Well I didn't mean direct... I planned on making at least one stop with my little plane lol. I wish I had a 60-80k budget! Trying to stay out of debt, so I gotta stick to cash for now.

I will definitely look into Moonies though!
 
Rotorwash said:
I wanted constant speed prop, retract, and 200hp or more. Wanted to spend 30K-40K. I considered many different aircraft types, bought a Navion. Cruises at 130-140kias. Being in the Florida heat, its sure nice to taxi with the canopy open and the prop wash coming in!
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You'd be hard pressed to get a Navion for $40K with a big engine and IFR panel these days.
 
Rotorwash said:
I wanted constant speed prop, retract, and 200hp or more. Wanted to spend 30K-40K. I considered many different aircraft types, bought a Navion. Cruises at 130-140kias. Being in the Florida heat, its sure nice to taxi with the canopy open and the prop wash coming in!
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You found a Navion in your budget??
 
JEB said:
So we agree then - right?
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It appears that way. I have a M20C that I'm slowly upgrading so that seems to be what you were saying. If he intends to keep it for a long duration and doesn't mind spending the money over time, then this is a good way to go about it.
 
GeorgeC said:
M20C or M20E.
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You can probably get a G for the same price, too. Difference is that it's got more room in the rear but it's slower. People really seem to want that speed...
 
Comanche 180 or bump your budget to $50-55 and get a 250 Comanche.
 
I'm one of your competitors, looking for the same thing.

My take for you is a Mooney M20C. Although for a 40k budget, you're getting an engine at 1500 hours and non-moving map IFR and it will be harder to find. Add a 20k loan and you can probably get into something with a 430 and a better engine.

Just before the current unpleasantness started, I found a M20C with a 750 for 53k, but I never got a pre buy arranged before our governor told us to stay at home. I suspect it's gone by now.
 
Yes, I found a Navion in my budget three years ago, but was looking at aircraft for several years before finally taking the plunge. Seller wanted 50K, then lowered it to 45K sometime later, I offered 40K and he accepted. We agree to him covering the annual which was due, and anything else it needed to be airworthy. It did need a fair amount of work, but he did cover it all. I live in south Florida, aircraft was near Sacramento in California. I flew out commercial to inspect, and found and made a list of squawks after flying it with a Navion experienced instructed I had lined up. I flew home commercial and waited two or three months until the shop had fixed everything. I flew back out commercial, hired the same instructor, was signed off as necessary for FAA and insurance requirements. Flew home to Fort Lauderdale without incident. It ended up costing me an extra commercial flight out, but I had a blast. Everyone was very helpful, made a lot of friends, and now I have a nice Navion!
 
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I snagged a 430W, 200HP and OEM AP equipped 4-seater for 45K. That was 7 years ago, but I think it's still doable, especially if you look at the more discounted cramped legroom year samples of type (M20C/E, pre-72 Arrows, pre-C model Debonairs, pre-66 Comanches), provided you don't intend to sit adults back there. Good luck!
 
bflynn said:
I'm one of your competitors, looking for the same thing.

My take for you is a Mooney M20C. Although for a 40k budget, you're getting an engine at 1500 hours and non-moving map IFR and it will be harder to find. Add a 20k loan and you can probably get into something with a 430 and a better engine.

Just before the current unpleasantness started, I found a M20C with a 750 for 53k, but I never got a pre buy arranged before our governor told us to stay at home. I suspect it's gone by now.
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Dont you take my plane sir! Finders keepers! lol
 
Kristin said:
Comanche 180 or bump your budget to $50-55 and get a 250 Comanche.
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I found a 260 Comanche for $31k, but it says "annual complete with the exception of needing 4 cylinders."

Uhh... Does that means it basically needs an overhaul? lol. This plane would have been perfect otherwise!
 
Pay now or pay later.
 
That's a tight budget for the goals you've set. I doubt you'll find an Arrow in that range and if you do, it'll be a project. You might find a 60's M20C or a 50's V-tail Bo for that price that will be serviceable but it'll likely be VFR with ancient radios. You might also find a 180hp Commanche in the same condition. You'll probably find a Viking or three for that budget if you're good with a fabric plane and a 6-cylinder fuel bill.

Find yourself a partner and you can buy a lot more plane. Or consider giving up some speed.
 
Have you priced insurance for a retract vs fixed? You might want to do that before getting too far down the road. Newer pilot, no IFR might be $3k/year. You can get prospective quotes without an actual plane. Fixed gear might be $1k or less.
 
Hang 4 said:
Have you priced insurance for a retract vs fixed? You might want to do that before getting too far down the road. Newer pilot, no IFR might be $3k/year. You can get prospective quotes without an actual plane. Fixed gear might be $1k or less.
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Screw insurance!
I have been flying without it for 16 years. If I had to insure all my planes I wouldn't be able to put gas in them.
I do not work my ass off to make insurance companies rich.
 
pigpenracing said:
Screw insurance!
I have been flying without it for 16 years. If I had to insure all my planes I wouldn't be able to put gas in them.
I do not work my ass off to make insurance companies rich.
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Yeah! Tell em Pigpen!
Wanna share one of those planes with me :)
 
pigpenracing said:
Screw insurance!
I have been flying without it for 16 years. If I had to insure all my planes I wouldn't be able to put gas in them.
I do not work my ass off to make insurance companies rich.
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My airport requires proof of insurance to have a hangar. Otherwise I would tend to agree, self insure when possible.
 
To get the amount of airplane you want for $30-40K means your annuals are probably gonna be real expensive for awhile.

Especially at the lower end of the price scale, experimentals are a lot more bang for the buck, but even there increasing your budget will be more realistic for the performance you're looking for.
 
Dana said:
To get the amount of airplane you want for $30-40K means your annuals are probably gonna be real expensive for awhile.

Especially at the lower end of the price scale, experimentals are a lot more bang for the buck, but even there increasing your budget will be more realistic for the performance you're looking for.
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I disagree! There are deals out there for nice airplanes in that price range.... If you buy a nice plane that is well maintained annuals should not be expensive. I don't think he is looking for a $40,000 junk project. $40 will buy a really nice old Mooney,old Bonanza or Super Viking.
I always find deals on super nice planes but when they pop up you better have the cash in hand to buy or they will be gone in a day...
 
Yeah, but sure was nice to have an insurance company deal with the farmer whose cow pasture fence I went through on my emergency landing, and paid to recover the plane and repair the subsequent damage. Maybe YOU don't have any assets worth protecting beyond the plane itself, but I do.
 
+1. Decide your mission, how long you will keep the plane, how much you want to budget for repairs, improvements, family growing, then study the market for as long as it takes and be ready to leap. By the time you get a prebuy, someone else with the cash will soak it up, especially when the owner is ready to sell. I took my mechanic and a friend with me when I found the right plane. All three spent 4 hrs going over the plane and brought a cashiers check. Another buyer was 10 minutes late. Always a risk, but I want my mechanic to do the prebuy right there. Friend came along to help inspect and fly us to the inspection site so I could fly back. I saw the plane on barnstormers when it first came up, it was mine 24hrs later(360 miles away). I had been looking for 4 yrs for exactly what I wanted. Still have plane 16 yrs later.
 
Dana said:
To get the amount of airplane you want for $30-40K means your annuals are probably gonna be real expensive for awhile.

Especially at the lower end of the price scale, experimentals are a lot more bang for the buck, but even there increasing your budget will be more realistic for the performance you're looking for.
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You would think that, but there really isn't much in the way of experimentals that aren't borderline ultralights for under 40k. I attribute that to being that after adding an engine, it is difficult to build for under 50k.

On Controller.com right now, there's only 4 complete airplanes out of 63 total that fit the "under 40k" bill.

Golden Circle Air T-Bird II, 15k. The design is an ultralight.
Alpi Aviation Pioneer 200 from Mexico, 29k
53 year old Thorp T-16, 29.5k (experimental 2 seater from one of the designers of the PA-28)
Sonex, 35k.

I agree on the annuals.
 
Dana said:
To get the amount of airplane you want for $30-40K means your annuals are probably gonna be real expensive for awhile.

Especially at the lower end of the price scale, experimentals are a lot more bang for the buck, but even there increasing your budget will be more realistic for the performance you're looking for.
Click to expand...

bflynn said:
You would think that, but there really isn't much in the way of experimentals that aren't borderline ultralights for under 40k. I attribute that to being that after adding an engine, it is difficult to build for under 50k.

On Controller.com right now, there's only 4 complete airplanes out of 63 total that fit the "under 40k" bill.

Golden Circle Air T-Bird II, 15k. The design is an ultralight.
Alpi Aviation Pioneer 200 from Mexico, 29k
53 year old Thorp T-16, 29.5k (experimental 2 seater from one of the designers of the PA-28)
Sonex, 35k.

I agree on the annuals.
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I'm only one data point and everyone's experiences will likely vary, but my annuals haven't been expensive. My first one was because I had some additional, non-airworthiness squawks taken care of, but outside of that they have all been routine annuals.
 
pigpenracing said:
I disagree! There are deals out there for nice airplanes in that price range.... If you buy a nice plane that is well maintained annuals should not be expensive. I don't think he is looking for a $40,000 junk project. $40 will buy a really nice old Mooney,old Bonanza or Super Viking.
I always find deals on super nice planes but when they pop up you better have the cash in hand to buy or they will be gone in a day...
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I'd love a Bonanza, but I keep hearing that the maintenance is much more expensive. What are your thoughts on that?
 
Eldorado said:
+1. Decide your mission, how long you will keep the plane, how much you want to budget for repairs, improvements, family growing, then study the market for as long as it takes and be ready to leap. By the time you get a prebuy, someone else with the cash will soak it up, especially when the owner is ready to sell. I took my mechanic and a friend with me when I found the right plane. All three spent 4 hrs going over the plane and brought a cashiers check. Another buyer was 10 minutes late. Always a risk, but I want my mechanic to do the prebuy right there. Friend came along to help inspect and fly us to the inspection site so I could fly back. I saw the plane on barnstormers when it first came up, it was mine 24hrs later(360 miles away). I had been looking for 4 yrs for exactly what I wanted. Still have plane 16 yrs later.
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So take a mechanic with me, got it! I think that was what I planned on doing anyway. I just gotta find one first! I'm kind of a recluse, but I need to start reaching out and getting more involved in the community. Ya'll seem to be a good bunch of people.
 
Shane C said:
I found a 260 Comanche for $31k, but it says "annual complete with the exception of needing 4 cylinders."

Uhh... Does that means it basically needs an overhaul? lol. This plane would have been perfect otherwise!
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Hard to say without knowing more about the plane. My guess is that it probably has a few other problems as the $7,500 or so to replace the four cylinders doesn't get you to $40K which is low for a 260. However, if you want to explore it a bit, email me at kristin at the aviatrix dot com.
 
Shane C said:
I have a cash budget of $30-40k
Want something with retractable gear to help with the speed.
Flying mostly myself and wife.
Also looking for something 180 hp or more. I have to fly to Los Angeles from Portland once in a while, so I'd prefer to make that trip as short as possible. I wanna travel the country, comfortably with my wife, baby, and maybe my pup. Just bought my Restricted Radio permit to fly to Canada too! Whoop!
*forgot to mention I want a low wing!*
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Pretty much a Mooney M20C or Piper Comanche 180 is what you're looking for. The most restrictive piece of your puzzle is the budget, but you should be able to find something with a purchase price in that range. You'll be putting a lot more money into it for the next few years though, most likely...

Shane C said:
I found a 260 Comanche for $31k, but it says "annual complete with the exception of needing 4 cylinders."

Uhh... Does that means it basically needs an overhaul? lol. This plane would have been perfect otherwise!
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Not necessarily. Figure a couple thousand per cylinder to buy some used ones and throw them on, so around $8K vs. about $40K for an overhaul. However, I'd be very suspicious of an engine that needs 4 cylinders all at once like that, depending on WHY it needs 4 cylinders.

Rgbeard said:
Not much difference in speed between an Arrow and an Archer.

Save the coin, unless you just need it for ego.
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The slowest Arrow I ever flew was 130 knots, the fastest Archer could crack 120 by a bit... But the slowest Arrow would have been much cheaper to purchase than the fastest Archer.

The faster Archers are the post-1980ish ones with the wheel pants that fully enclose the brakes, struts and everything vs. the earlier ones where the pants just cover the wheel. There's a lot more of the slower Archers out there that will do 115 on a good day, and there's a lot of Arrows that will do 135 without breaking a sweat. That's a significant difference on a longer trip.

pigpenracing said:
Screw insurance!
I have been flying without it for 16 years. If I had to insure all my planes I wouldn't be able to put gas in them.
I do not work my ass off to make insurance companies rich.
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Do you own any retracts? Do you have any plans in place for when something that isn't your fault at all happens and you get sued?

Aviation doesn't do well in the courts, and I don't ever want a $45,000 surprise if something happens with my landing gear. I hate insurance companies as much as anyone, but they provide what is a necessary service for most of us.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Pretty much a Mooney M20C or Piper Comanche 180 is what you're looking for. The most restrictive piece of your puzzle is the budget, but you should be able to find something with a purchase price in that range. You'll be putting a lot more money into it for the next few years though, most likely...



Not necessarily. Figure a couple thousand per cylinder to buy some used ones and throw them on, so around $8K vs. about $40K for an overhaul. However, I'd be very suspicious of an engine that needs 4 cylinders all at once like that, depending on WHY it needs 4 cylinders.
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Apparently they all have exhaust leaks. Is that an un-airworthy issue?
 
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