New Position or New Job?

[Jaybird180]

I’ve mentioned previously how I work in an environment where the Chiefs to Indian ratio is poorly balanced. I have been thinking about my career growth lately and thinking that it may be time to graze greener pastures. Well, Lo and Behold!, my team lead gets himself fired a few weeks ago.

There is an ongoing organizational shift and the reasons for his discharge are being addressed by structural modification. I’ve been told that I am being considered for a leadership role in that new structure. Except for employing a spy, I have no means of verifying the intel.

This transition period without leadership has significant side-effects that I cannot elucidate in this post, but nevertheless I am concerned about having significant work requirements missed, due the lack of ability employ the existing team members properly without an official nod to the effect.

I enjoy what I do. I’m underpaid for my qualifications and work experience. My next direction is leadership. How long should I wait it out or what indicators should I watch for to help make the decision?

 

[JOhnH]

Why don't you go to the appropriate person and tell them that the lack of leadership is having a negative impact on business and that you would like to be considered for the leadership position. That may give them the confidence and the motivation to speed up your pending promotion. As an employer, I would appreciate you concern for the business, and I would respect your initiative.

I’ve mentioned previously how I work in an environment where the Chiefs to Indian ratio is poorly balanced. I have been thinking about my career growth lately and thinking that it may be time to graze greener pastures. Well, Lo and Behold!, my team lead gets himself fired a few weeks ago.

There is an ongoing organizational shift and the reasons for his discharge are being addressed by structural modification. I’ve been told that I am being considered for a leadership role in that new structure. Except for employing a spy, I have no means of verifying the intel.

This transition period without leadership has significant side-effects that I cannot elucidate in this post, but nevertheless I am concerned about having significant work requirements missed, due the lack of ability employ the existing team members properly without an official nod to the effect.

I enjoy what I do. I’m underpaid for my qualifications and work experience. My next direction is leadership. How long should I wait it out or what indicators should I watch for to help make the decision?

 

[Sac Arrow]

The way I see it is that your organization is either going to survive or it is going to melt down. If it survives, you want to position yourself for a key leadership role for career advancement. If it melts down, you're looking for another job anyway and if you can have some leadership experience it can only be an asset.

So just work toward it and jump on the opportunity when it comes. Unless you simply don't want to undertake a leadership position.

 

[Jaybird180]

Why don't you go to the appropriate person and tell them that the lack of leadership is having a negative impact on business and that you would like to be considered for the leadership position. That may give them the confidence and the motivation to speed up your pending promotion. As an employer, I would appreciate you concern for the business, and I would respect your initiative.

I've brought up the issue to several bosses. The one that can make the decision has (I was told) intentionally made himself unavailable due to the campaigning thats going on for the position; he's newly transferred in and wants to make the decision "objectively" and in his own timeframe.

 

[Ghery]

Sounds to me like if he takes too long he may crater the organization, in which case it won't matter. And he'll be on the street with the rest of you.

 

[Gerhardt]

Sounds to me like if he takes too long he may crater the organization, in which case it won't matter. And he'll be on the street with the rest of you.

Somehow, some organizations are just able to plod along despite poor management.

 

[TazzyTazzy]

Sounds to me like if he takes too long he may crater the organization, in which case it won't matter. And he'll be on the street with the rest of you.

Naw, if he worked in my org.. They would just 'restart' the org.. Fire a couple of indians, assign a new chief. Oh, they wouldn't back-fill and the remaining team would be required to pick up the slack. After 3 iterations of this and things break, you'll get an influx of budget college graduates and the few remaining that haven't jumped ship yet will have to train.

If it wasn't for one big, personal reason, i'd jump ship already. That reason will be gone within 13 months for me and will be time to move on.

My company has a big internal job fair. 2 days before the job fair, they froze all internal transfers. This was 2 months ago.

 

[DJTorrente]

My company has a big internal job fair. 2 days before the job fair, they froze all internal transfers. This was 2 months ago.

Wow. Were they stupid enough to put the job fair on anyway? Did people go for the free donuts?

 

[Henning]

I’ve mentioned previously how I work in an environment where the Chiefs to Indian ratio is poorly balanced. I have been thinking about my career growth lately and thinking that it may be time to graze greener pastures. Well, Lo and Behold!, my team lead gets himself fired a few weeks ago.

There is an ongoing organizational shift and the reasons for his discharge are being addressed by structural modification. I’ve been told that I am being considered for a leadership role in that new structure. Except for employing a spy, I have no means of verifying the intel.

This transition period without leadership has significant side-effects that I cannot elucidate in this post, but nevertheless I am concerned about having significant work requirements missed, due the lack of ability employ the existing team members properly without an official nod to the effect.

I enjoy what I do. I’m underpaid for my qualifications and work experience. My next direction is leadership. How long should I wait it out or what indicators should I watch for to help make the decision?

If you take the lead and provide quality leadership, your team will follow you. You have the opportunity to take it and make it, or fail at it. If you are leadership material, it will shake out with you in the lead. Accept it as an opportunity if you want and take the ball and run with all the leash you can earn from both your team and the people watching your result.

Be a good leader and people will gladly follow.

 

[Henning]

I've brought up the issue to several bosses. The one that can make the decision has (I was told) intentionally made himself unavailable due to the campaigning thats going on for the position; he's newly transferred in and wants to make the decision "objectively" and in his own timeframe.

Step into the void and take command, he's waiting to see who does, and how effective they are.

 

[LoneAspen]

I've brought up the issue to several bosses. The one that can make the decision has (I was told) intentionally made himself unavailable due to the campaigning thats going on for the position; he's newly transferred in and wants to make the decision "objectively" and in his own timeframe.

That would make me really wary. I've seen a few examples of that in the past, and it almost always led to the manager bringing in somebody he knew from outside the company to fill the spot, and not giving anybody internal the chance to throw their hat in the ring. Or, they'd allow internal people to interview for the spot, but it was just a formality, because they were bringing in the outside person regardless.

 

[paflyer]

I’ve mentioned previously how I work in an environment where the Chiefs to Indian ratio is poorly balanced. I have been thinking about my career growth lately and thinking that it may be time to graze greener pastures. Well, Lo and Behold!, my team lead gets himself fired a few weeks ago.

There is an ongoing organizational shift and the reasons for his discharge are being addressed by structural modification. I’ve been told that I am being considered for a leadership role in that new structure. Except for employing a spy, I have no means of verifying the intel.

This transition period without leadership has significant side-effects that I cannot elucidate in this post, but nevertheless I am concerned about having significant work requirements missed, due the lack of ability employ the existing team members properly without an official nod to the effect.

I enjoy what I do. I’m underpaid for my qualifications and work experience. My next direction is leadership. How long should I wait it out or what indicators should I watch for to help make the decision?

I'd blow now if I had other options.

 

[mike d]

I generally agree with Henning. If the driver seat is empty, take the wheel.
This does not mean start directing outright. Do it softly at first and see if people follow. A leader maximizes resources effectively and efficiently. That may sound like a simple statement, but it is actually very complicated.
I suggest you spend the next few days listening to Manager Tools pod casts.

 

[AuntPeggy]

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57754

"If you want your boss's job, you need to do your boss's job. I don't know what you do, but I bet you a quarter that I know what your boss does. Here it is in a basket. Your boss assigns work and prioritizes and schedules work. Your boss assesses work product and worker ability and worker ethic. Your boss is a trainer, answers questions or knows who can answer questions. Your boss resolves the tough problems and constantly evaluates and re-designs the process."

Mike, Henning, and now I are giving you the same advice.

The other, also viable, option is to jump ship. If they don't choose you, this becomes your only option.

 

[red4golf]

Lead, follow or get out of the way. I would bet that the new manager is looking for someone to step up and do the "cream rises to the top" thing.

 

[Jaybird180]

Lead, follow or get out of the way. I would bet that the new manager is looking for someone to step up and do the "cream rises to the top" thing.

My thoughts exactly. I'm in a somewhat delicate situation. I'll provide an analogy:

My team is comprised of people who draw their salaries from different buckets. The managers of those buckets want to put their people in the driver's seat. Everyone on the team has acknowledged that I'm best qualified and all but one willingly followed me when I assumed command in the initial power void. That one is a known malcontent, who aligned herself to the former team lead.

Sadly, the leader of my bucket is more concerned about watching his 6 than advancing our campaign and has asked me to soft pedal. He is not directly involved with our team and depends upon me for Intel as much as I depend upon him. Meanwhile, the manager with the largest number of people instructed their people to only receive direction from their guy (who I'll call "K"); it was a mutiny. I've addressed the issue with "K"; we've been civil up to this point and he knows that he's under-qualified and doesn't want the job, but he wants his paycheck every two weeks, so he followed his manager's direction.

With a simple word from "The Boss" this can be resolved. Even if the appointment given is named "acting" or "interim" it would allow us to move forward with addressing several issues.

 

[Jaybird180]

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57754

"If you want your boss's job, you need to do your boss's job. I don't know what you do, but I bet you a quarter that I know what your boss does. Here it is in a basket. Your boss assigns work and prioritizes and schedules work. Your boss assesses work product and worker ability and worker ethic. Your boss is a trainer, answers questions or knows who can answer questions. Your boss resolves the tough problems and constantly evaluates and re-designs the process."

Mike, Henning, and now I are giving you the same advice.

The other, also viable, option is to jump ship. If they don't choose you, this becomes your only option.

Thank you for the link. I read the first post and will finish the thread when I have more time....you see, I'm at work (LoL).

 

[Henning]

My thoughts exactly. I'm in a somewhat delicate situation. I'll provide an analogy:

My team is comprised of people who draw their salaries from different buckets. The managers of those buckets want to put their people in the driver's seat. Everyone on the team has acknowledged that I'm best qualified and all but one willingly followed me when I assumed command in the initial power void. That one is a known malcontent, who aligned herself to the former team lead.

Sadly, the leader of my bucket is more concerned about watching his 6 than advancing our campaign and has asked me to soft pedal. He is not directly involved with our team and depends upon me for Intel as much as I depend upon him. Meanwhile, the manager with the largest number of people instructed their people to only receive direction from their guy (who I'll call "K"); it was a mutiny. I've addressed the issue with "K"; we've been civil up to this point and he knows that he's under-qualified and doesn't want the job, but he wants his paycheck every two weeks, so he followed his manager's direction.

With a simple word from "The Boss" this can be resolved. Even if the appointment given is named "acting" or "interim" it would allow us to move forward with addressing several issues.

Quit.

 

[JOhnH]

Now I reitterate my original advice. Speak up to the guy in charge and lay it out to him like you laid it out for us. Combine that with a proposal about how you would work to resolve this cluster duck. If he doesn't take action that you like, be prepared to walk.

My thoughts exactly. I'm in a somewhat delicate situation. I'll provide an analogy:

My team is comprised of people who draw their salaries from different buckets. The managers of those buckets want to put their people in the driver's seat. Everyone on the team has acknowledged that I'm best qualified and all but one willingly followed me when I assumed command in the initial power void. That one is a known malcontent, who aligned herself to the former team lead.

Sadly, the leader of my bucket is more concerned about watching his 6 than advancing our campaign and has asked me to soft pedal. He is not directly involved with our team and depends upon me for Intel as much as I depend upon him. Meanwhile, the manager with the largest number of people instructed their people to only receive direction from their guy (who I'll call "K"); it was a mutiny. I've addressed the issue with "K"; we've been civil up to this point and he knows that he's under-qualified and doesn't want the job, but he wants his paycheck every two weeks, so he followed his manager's direction.

With a simple word from "The Boss" this can be resolved. Even if the appointment given is named "acting" or "interim" it would allow us to move forward with addressing several issues.

 

[Henning]

Now I reitterate my original advice. Speak up to the guy in charge and lay it out to him like you laid it out for us. Combine that with a proposal about how you would work to resolve this cluster duck. If he doesn't take action that you like, be prepared to walk.

It's already happened, the management is lacking in leadership ability. It's time to walk, either they call back and she gets an official nod, or she gets out of a dead end position. Either that or just sit back and let it collapse while looking for another position. It's out of Jaybird's hands at this point. I would personally walk.

 

[mike d]

Sounds like a few battles are going on.

I would get my resume polished up and start looking.

But on a dual path, I would take control. If everyone was willing to follow except one, then your in. (Sort of) you still need to smooth the waters with K's boss and handle the one last defiant person. There are many ways to do this, but we would need to know more about why she is not willing to follow. Wants the job? Doesn't like you? A" by the book" chain of command type? Each would take a different tactic.
Smoothing the waters with K's boss is fairly easy if you have regular access to him. Could be very difficult if you don't.

But, hey!, if it's between taking control and getting fired, you got nothing to loose. You will learn something. But don't quit before you have a new job. Getting fired is better. At least you can get unemployment if your fired.

 

[vfrfellow]

It's already happened, the management is lacking in leadership ability. It's time to walk

This. I had that same discussion...the response was "there are plenty of jobs out there" so I have yet to see anyone actually get a reasonable response. I'm starting to think "why fix the problem when you can assimilate another underpaid entry level peon that won't rock the boat?"

 

[bflynn]

Why fix the problem? Because there is considerable goodwill in having been in a position for a while, plus promotion ability...it's easier to get promoted to a higher position than get hired into one.

Take the wheel and drive. Deal with each team member one on one. If someone doesn't play ball, don't throw them under the bus, just let the bus run over them and their self preservation will kick in. Everyone has an addiction to food, clothing and shelter. Then keep working with them. Reality, if you have the wheel and you're driving toward the destination, the easiest corporate course is to let inertia take over.

Mike mentioned the free manager tools podcasts. Listen to the base podcasts about the trinity, only a couple of hours at most. See what you can do.

Then if someone else is hired or promoted, leave.

A lot of people who usually disagree giving you the same advice...that ought to say something

 

[Henning]

Why fix the problem? Because there is considerable goodwill in having been in a position for a while, plus promotion ability...it's easier to get promoted to a higher position than get hired into one.

Take the wheel and drive. Deal with each team member one on one. If someone doesn't play ball, don't throw them under the bus, just let the bus run over them and their self preservation will kick in. Everyone has an addiction to food, clothing and shelter. Then keep working with them. Reality, if you have the wheel and you're driving toward the destination, the easiest corporate course is to let inertia take over.

Mike mentioned the free manager tools podcasts. Listen to the base podcasts about the trinity, only a couple of hours at most. See what you can do.

Then if someone else is hired or promoted, leave.

A lot of people who usually disagree giving you the same advice...that ought to say something

That is not what the evidence shows. People who switch jobs every 2 years advance faster, and more high level jobs are filled from without than within.

 

[Jaybird180]

I will consider the advice given in this thread. I will have to weigh it against several things, including the fact that I have served under people who were problematic before. I've somewhat taken it as a learning experience and test of wits and stamina. My former team lead and I didn't see eye-eye on many things and looks who stands.

Someone from the outside could be installed. But there is statistically a 33% chance it will be me, why walk away prematurely??? I should at least wait to see what happens (with another offer in my back pocket of course). My on the face question is - what's a good way of setting my "I'm going to stay and wait" expiration timetable?

 

[Henning]

I will consider the advice given in this thread. I will have to weigh it against several things, including the fact that I have served under people who were problematic before. I've somewhat taken it as a learning experience and test of wits and stamina. My former team lead and I didn't see eye-eye on many things and looks who stands.

Someone from the outside could be installed. But there is statistically a 33% chance it will be me, why walk away prematurely??? I should at least wait to see what happens (with another offer in my back pocket of course). My on the face question is - what's a good way of setting my "I'm going to stay and wait" expiration timetable?

Sure, if you are satisfied with the situation, you can just see what shakes out. If you want to take action though, you're at that point where walking would be the appropriate action in the sequence.

 

[JOhnH]

I will consider the advice given in this thread. I will have to weigh it against several things, including the fact that I have served under people who were problematic before. I've somewhat taken it as a learning experience and test of wits and stamina. My former team lead and I didn't see eye-eye on many things and looks who stands.

Someone from the outside could be installed. But there is statistically a 33% chance it will be me, why walk away prematurely??? I should at least wait to see what happens (with another offer in my back pocket of course). My on the face question is - what's a good way of setting my "I'm going to stay and wait" expiration timetable?

I wouldn't do like some politicians and set a time limit. I would set an objective limit. If "this" happens, then you do "that". If someone undeserving gets promoted, you walk. If you get promoted, you stay. If someone else deserving gets promoted, you (might) stay. If nothing changes, the place will probably collapse anyway, or one day you will just determine you have had it, and you have an escape path, and you walk.

 

[Flying Viking]

That would make me really wary. I've seen a few examples of that in the past, and it almost always led to the manager bringing in somebody he knew from outside the company to fill the spot, and not giving anybody internal the chance to throw their hat in the ring. Or, they'd allow internal people to interview for the spot, but it was just a formality, because they were bringing in the outside person regardless.

This was exactly my thought when I read the post...

 

[airdale]

One thing I learned in decades of management is: "For every complex problem there is a simple answer, usually wrong." I would suggest a multi-pronged approach:

• Let the hiring manager know that you are interested. If he is making himself hard to reach, send the message through one of his peers who likes you (best) or through one of his subordinates. If you have been smart enough to cultivate a good relationship with his secretary or with the support staff in general this can also be a good conduit.
• The politics sounds like a mess. Your skill with politics and your willingness to engage will determine whether this is a long-term company for you. It would not be a long-term company for me.
• Cultivate friends and acquaintances in your industry or your specialty (whichever applies) so that you have a ready support network if/when you need it. Cultivation may also bring you knowledge of job opportunities from time to time. That never hurts.
• Re "stay and wait expiration timetable" you will know when the time comes. And when you finally pull the trigger, you will say to yourself "I should have done that long ago." Sorry to say, but that's human nature. (That's what happened to me repeatedly when I had to fire people. A frequent comment from the troops afterwards was "Why did you wait so long?")

 

[txflyer]

My son went from tech to sales to management at Honeywell and he HATES it.

You can't fire anyone anymore nowadays. It takes an act of Congress.

All the while they want him to produce more while they have a hiring freeze and don't replace any people he loses. He can't hire good people and he can't fire bad people.

 

[FormerHangie]

My son went from tech to sales to management at Honeywell and he HATES it.

You can't fire anyone anymore nowadays. It takes an act of Congress.

All the while they want him to produce more while they have a hiring freeze and don't replace any people he loses. He can't hire good people and he can't fire bad people.

The surest way to drive someone crazy is to give him responsibility without authority.

 

[Henning]

The surest way to drive someone crazy is to give him responsibility without authority.

Especially budget authority, that's one thing I always have in my contract. They can set the budget, but I say how it's spent.

 

[PW_Plack]

I'd ask the boss to be named interim lead, do the job to the best of your ability, and see where it goes. The two big risks are giving the company what it needs without giving you a raise, and the political issue of returning from leader to coworker if they make someone else the permanent lead.

If you do ask for the job on an interim basis, ask for an expectation on when the final decision will be made. If the deadline is not met, and it becomes clear they're stalling, you've become an economy move, and you'll need to leave.

I've been in this situation a few times. The last time, I was interim department manager for almost a year (at my old worker-bee salary), led my team to exceed its goals, and was rewarded with the permanent position and a hefty increase. But that rarely works out.

You have the best odds of success if you get to manage the workflow but offload any personnel issues to HR or a higher-level manager.

Any way it works out is a plus in the end. Candidates with management experience, even if they failed as managers, get hired to management positions before candidates with no management experience.

 

[Jaybird180]

While we still wait, two team members got into it yesterday. A team leader would have easily resolved the conflict. As it stands one of them said, "you're not working on this with me anymore, no one is...you don't task me and I don't task anybody". We cannot afford that mentality.

If I were lead, I would straighten that out instantly. But alas....

I see the team disintegrating and I'm less enthusiastic about working here. I've decided that I'm going to go home early and do something productive with the rest of my rainy day - today's a bust.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, that's always the result of weak executives, that's why I thought the time to walk had come, things like this don't get better on their own, someone has to be forced into a decision one way or the other. One way they call you, the other way you avoid the ensuing mess. The only reason to stay is maintain a paycheck until the job implodes.

 

[Jaybird180]

How would you answer this question when asked at an interview: "Why are you looking for a new job?"

 

[JOhnH]

How would you answer this question when asked at an interview: "Why are you looking for a new job?"

It is time for me to take on more challenge and responsibility.

 

[Everskyward]

It is time for me to take on more challenge and responsibility.

Doesn't that have the flavor of a canned answer? Just like the answer to, "What is your worst fault?" is usually, "Being a workaholic." Of course when they ask canned questions maybe they are OK with canned answers.

I could never answer "being a workaholic" because I'm not.

 

[Flying Viking]

Doesn't that have the flavor of a canned answer? Just like the answer to, "What is your worst fault?" is usually, "Being a workaholic." Of course when they ask canned questions maybe they are OK with canned answers.

I could never answer "being a workaholic" because I'm not.

I told my wife to answer "being a nymphomaniac." At least if the interviewer is male (or a really hot female).

 

[Everskyward]

I told my wife to answer "being a nymphomaniac." At least if the interviewer is male (or a really hot female).