New MSFS2024 announced - waiting on details

Maybe take some lessons in an actual plane instead?

Wonder if anyone in the history of forever got an aviation career by showing the hiring person their Microsoft flight sim experience?

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jimhorner said:
Maybe take some lessons in an actual plane instead?

Wonder if anyone in the history of forever got an aviation career by showing the hiring person their Microsoft flight sim experience?

cee825301117a4deed0d8966939eeebd.jpg
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Maybe it introduces people to the fundamentals of flight when they would otherwise have no other way to gain that experience. Not everyone grows up around pilots or knows where to start. Many don't have the means to drop $10K just to get a pilots license. Many of the people playing on Flight Sims are children and young adults who don't have the resources to go train full time.

Also, flight sims can significantly reduce the total cost of real world training because they don't have to learn the basics of flight/ flight controls/ instrumentation as they already learned the basics from the simulator. Makes the ground school portion easier as well. It's easier to focus on the flying when your brain isn't drinking from the fire hose of other information to decipher.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Maybe it introduces people to the fundamentals of flight when they would otherwise have no other way to gain that experience.
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When Ed Link developed his Trainer, he offered an $80 learn to fly deal. It included just two hours in an actual airplane, and a bunch in Link’s Trainer.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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One of my better CS students went flying with me a few weeks ago (after semester was over, and after evals were submitted so there was no attempt at getting a better "grade" from the student). She's very involved with the sim world. When we landed her comment was "that was nothing like the sim. Definitely lots more fun!"

I rest my case.
 
wanttaja said:
When Ed Link developed his Trainer, he offered an $80 learn to fly offer. It included just two hours in an actual airplane, and a bunch in Link’s Trainer.

Ron Wanttaja
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I grew up playing MSFS from 3.1 through the early 00s. I probably logged 500+ hours playing around in different aircraft, flying some of the missions, learning from the built-in flight instruction modules. Granted, I had a few family members who were pilots and was "exposed" to it from a young age. However, I never had a fight in a small aircraft until I was about 14 or so. When we went up (C172 seaplane) I understood what all of the gauges were telling me and how the controls worked. I didn't understand the intricacies of flight or the physics behind lift/drag, but I had a good base knowledge. I firmly believe it was a small component that helped me get through the Private in 41 hrs TT.

To your point, you couldn't buy a 1/2 hour introductory flight for $80 these days, much less trainer time as well. The Link trainer wouldn't have likely existed if everyone had the computers and software like MSFS/XP11 that exist today. Even though the flight Sims don't replace the true dynamics of flight, they can serve as a great low-cost tool to get people interested in taking the next step. They're good for practicing procedures and flows for real pilots as well.
 
I will never give up my flight sims. I still love them even after finally getting hours in real planes. Maybe moreso now.

To @SoonerAviator 's point - I am likely close to soloing (according to my CFI), at 25 hours, and have not had one hour of instruction on the instruments since I already know how they work.

Since we live in an age where sims exist, I also get to do things that I'll never do in real life, like dogfight over Normandy in 1944, learn how to avoid VRS in a Huey and establish a hover, or learn Case III procedures to land an F-14 at night in the middle of the ocean (in DCS, which is excellent)

If you have a good rig and a VR headset, it's remarkably good at replicating the cockpit environment. Remember that in VR it's full size, unlike on a monitor, and there's depth perception.

I often practice patterns at my two home airfields in MSFS. Due to scheduling issues I couldn't fly for a couple months, so the night before a lesson I went and flew half-a-dozen circuits in MSFS, seeing myself hitting the target numbers for altitude and airspeed for each leg more accurately each time. The next day I'm 100% sure I flew better in the actual plane because I practiced virtually the night before. And I was less nervous because cognitively, I was just repeating something that had been practicing already (I was also voicing the radio calls to myself at each turn). Since MSFS used real map data, I can use the same visual references around the airfield that we do when we're actually there flying the pattern (it's really crazy if you haven't seen it)

And little things are replicated too - one example is that the flaps indicator is really hard to see in my school's 150 if you're in the left seat - but in MSFS in VR I can practice getting the flaps to the correct 10 degree increments by looking over my shoulder to see how it should look, and then it is exactly the same in real life the next day. And the sight picture for things like steep turns, takeoff and landing, etc. are great to practice on VR just for familiarity. On my first lesson I already had muscle memory for feet being used to turn while on the ground and not hands like in a car.

GNS-430s are modeled. I will shortly be transitioning to a plane with a G3X touch, which I've never used before, so I bought a plane in MSFS that has one. Being relatively inexperienced with GPS units or glass panels, having "hands on" experience in a sim while flying better replicates real-world experience than reading a manual or watching a YouTube video. Reading the procedures is one thing, but competently aviating while hitting the -D-> and finding a divert airfield is another. Maybe things like this come naturally to seasoned pilots but it's something that I need to practice for sure. There's no reason why sims shouldn't help with that.

Not to mention that it's much cheaper to sit at my desk and fly than my school's current rates, and I can do it whenever I want to regardless of the weather, my CFI's schedule, or the school's plane's maintenance status. And it doesn't take 45 minutes to drive to my desk.

I love flying and I love my sims. They both have an important place in my life. I'm keeping tabs on what Microsoft is doing with 2024 for sure.
 
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Although my OP was not meant to start a debate about the pros and cons of flight simulators, let me just say that I am a simmer and RL recreational pilot. As well as fun, I use the sim for serious practice in many ways. One way, in particular, is connecting my RL EFB on my iPad to the sim every-time I fly in the sim. The EFB has so many features, with new ones coming along all the time, that using it in the sim gives me greater confidence in using it in RL flying. In many other ways, I feel a safer RL pilot from things done in the sim. Cheers.
 
I started on version 1 way back. Bought every new one that came out. The most recent one turned me off and I switched to X Plane and I'll never go back to MS. I get the graphics are pretty but everything else about it was IMO just awful. XP is another, faster, and way more like actual flying than MS.

MS will have you spending more time setting up the flight, configuring, waiting waiting waiting than actually flying. After nearly 40 years of using their product, I feel they shot themselves in the foot in 2020 and are only selling beautiful graphics.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I started on version 1 way back. Bought every new one that came out. The most recent one turned me off and I switched to X Plane and I'll never go back to MS. I get the graphics are pretty but everything else about it was IMO just awful. XP is another, faster, and way more like actual flying than MS.

MS will have you spending more time setting up the flight, configuring, waiting waiting waiting than actually flying. After nearly 40 years of using their product, I feel they shot themselves in the foot in 2020 and are only selling beautiful graphics.
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One thing I will not use it for is learning the flight dynamics for any airframe. I'm not sure that the forces are modeled correctly. I wonder if 2024 will use the same model.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I started on version 1 way back. Bought every new one that came out. The most recent one turned me off and I switched to X Plane and I'll never go back to MS. I get the graphics are pretty but everything else about it was IMO just awful. XP is another, faster, and way more like actual flying than MS.

MS will have you spending more time setting up the flight, configuring, waiting waiting waiting than actually flying. After nearly 40 years of using their product, I feel they shot themselves in the foot in 2020 and are only selling beautiful graphics.
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It's even worse if you live in the middle of nowhere with crap internet. Took me 4 days to download it, and then every time I want to get on it, it wants to download another 10gb. Then the graphics aren't even that great because I don't have the bandwidth to stream them.
 
Jim K said:
It's even worse if you live in the middle of nowhere with crap internet. Took me 4 days to download it, and then every time I want to get on it, it wants to download another 10gb. Then the graphics aren't even that great because I don't have the bandwidth to stream them.
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Yeah, that sucks. It makes these even more baffling. Imagine buying this package but then they're rendered useless in a matter of weeks:
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murphey said:
One of my better CS students went flying with me a few weeks ago (after semester was over, and after evals were submitted so there was no attempt at getting a better "grade" from the student). She's very involved with the sim world. When we landed her comment was "that was nothing like the sim. Definitely lots more fun!"

I rest my case.
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I haven't played with a simulator in over 10 years. Back then simulators worked well once it was airborne, but landing/taking off was far from reality. I used it when working on my IR to practice approached. Worked well for that.
 
Wow I love this, “Pursue your dream of an aviation career with Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024. This brand-new simulator is designed to take advantage of the latest technologies in simulation, cloud, machine learning…”

Now if MS can just convince the FAA of its value - not.
 
I had about 500 hr of training on Falcon 3.0 so I applied to the air force with my extensive training but they didn't take me.
 
Pinecone said:
I was a beta tester for Falcon 3.0. And all the beta testers got their pictures in the sim for the characters. :D
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That's pretty cool. I read the other day that Microprose has reacquired the rights to the Falcon series. Would love to see them come out with a new version.
 
murphey said:
One of my better CS students went flying with me a few weeks ago (after semester was over, and after evals were submitted so there was no attempt at getting a better "grade" from the student). She's very involved with the sim world. When we landed her comment was "that was nothing like the sim. Definitely lots more fun!"

I rest my case.
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I guess you and your CS student convinced me. Excellent case presentation there.

There is only one problem, counsellor. And that is, that you are talking to real pilots who also have experience w/ flight sims. When used as a tool, sims are an excellent way of training. Instrument scanning, perfect. In flight emergencies, perfect. Different approaches, perfect. Flying through broken clouds, perfect. Being able to sense a stall approaching, nope. Feeling spatial disorientation, nope. Physically getting bumped around, nope. Knowing controls by location and feel, nope.

The bottom line, is if it is a visual thing, the FS is well suited. For the other senses, not the best. Use it within it's limitations and it is very rewarding. If you expect it to be a 100% high fidelity replacement for the real thing, you're on a fools errand.

I myself started on MSFS 1.0 for Mac. (Those WWI stick aircraft never knew what hit them!) In addition to the basic instruments, I also decided to learn the phonetic alphabet from the sizeable manual they included w/ the game. And I'll completely agree, the experience was not the same as the real aircraft, but by no means the complete waste that some want to make it out to be.
 
Well, a few more details on MSFS2024 are out now. It’s gonna be exciting! Cheers.

 
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SoonerAviator said:
Maybe it introduces people to the fundamentals of flight when they would otherwise have no other way to gain that experience. Not everyone grows up around pilots or knows where to start. Many don't have the means to drop $10K just to get a pilots license. Many of the people playing on Flight Sims are children and young adults who don't have the resources to go train full time.

Also, flight sims can significantly reduce the total cost of real world training because they don't have to learn the basics of flight/ flight controls/ instrumentation as they already learned the basics from the simulator. Makes the ground school portion easier as well. It's easier to focus on the flying when your brain isn't drinking from the fire hose of other information to decipher.
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I can tell you that the old Microsoft Flight Simulator (at that time also known as Bruce Artwick Organization) made a huge impact on my decision to pursue flying. I did not grow up around pilots. In fact, I did not know a single pilot. I have fond memories of the many hours I spent in front of the green pixelated monochrome screen that only vaguely resembled an airplane cockpit. Today's version of flightsim can have a much greater impact on people.
 
murphey said:
One of my better CS students went flying with me a few weeks ago (after semester was over, and after evals were submitted so there was no attempt at getting a better "grade" from the student). She's very involved with the sim world. When we landed her comment was "that was nothing like the sim. Definitely lots more fun!"

I rest my case.
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I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Many people got their first introduction to aviation through simulators, either because they did not know anyone in aviation, or they simply did not have the means (I fall in both these categories). Simulators are a cheap way to get a taste of flight, and to learn some basics. If we want general aviation to survive into the next century, we should be encouraging this, not belittling it as a substandard behavior. No one is saying that simulators are the real thing, or that it is as much fun as real flying.
 
Also sims are a better version of chair flying which many have said students/pilots should do if they can't get in a real plane regularly.
 
MSFS let me live in a fantasy world when I was a kid and before, during and after receiving my certificate and gaining real flight hours. Kudos to the developers for making this series.
 
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