New Member - Possible Seneca II Acquisition Qs?

A

Always Undecided

Filing Flight Plan
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Always Undecided
Sorry if this is in the wrong section. New member here and wanted to intro myself as well as get the question out there.

I'm a late 30s professional pilot, ATP certificate with a few type ratings, around 8k total time (I'd like to retire with < 10k), current CFI/II/MEI (around 2k dual given including some jet dual given as well as the usual trainers), no debt and my own business. As they say, I'm two thirds of the way to fat, bald, and happy.

TL;DR, I'm Always Undecided and I'm an Alc--I'm a pilot.

Now that the boring stuff is out of the way, let's talk about my potential mental incapacitation. That's right, I'm in the market to purchase an airplane. This would be for personal/family transport maybe 40-50 hours a year. Not exactly high utilization, I know, but sadly there's no clubs or rental options in the area that meet my needs.

As I have an aviation related business, I would undoubtedly put this on a (my) Part 135 certificate, not for the enormous piles of money I want to make with it, but just to keep it flying reasonably regularly. I have no delusions of getting rich by owning an airplane, I just understand that these things need exercise and with my lower utilization forecast I think it's probably a good idea.

I wouldn't mind doing flight training, but I think considering the needs I have (standby..), the airplane I'm in the market for would be a terrible trainer. Not that you couldn't train in it, but I'm not interested in letting a hamfisted student pilot destroy an engine, or land with the wheels still safety secured up by locks or hydraulic fluid, to make no mention of the insurance premium.

To this end I've basically narrowed it down to a Seneca II or a Baron. I've got oodles of time in the Baron but only a handful of hours in the Seneca. I'm sure some around here have both, so I'd love to hear some horror stories, terrible maintenance bills, and I guess a pleasant anecdote about a fun trip now and then. My needs are: Ability to take 2-3 adults (or maybe 2 adults and a child or two) a reasonable distance (I'm about 300 miles to NY or Chicago, 900 to Orlando, and I don't mind stopping for gas if I want to see The Mouse), reasonably economic (under 30gph with good parts availability), and because of being located in the NE I absolutely have to have FIKI and I wouldn't fly a FIKI piston without a second motor.

As I lean towards Seneca II, I have begun to do some homework and it seems that I'd insist on putting in the Merlyn top end controller, GAMIs, and an engine analyzer. I've managed everything from single pistons to large cabin biz jets and understand the advantages of having the information to run LOP to keep things cool. I'm also not really in a super hurry so 55%-65% power is more than enough for me. Quite honestly, I'd probably be willing to pull back to 45% on personal trips because it's more about the trip than the destination for me, but I digress...

I lean Seneca II vs Baron for two reasons: 1) the cost of parts (Beech is proud of their line, and I haven't personally maintained any Piper products in >10 years so they also may be proud of theirs...teach me), and 2) Cost of acquisition. I can get into the game for half the cost in a Seneca II vs a Baron. While I loved my time in the Baron, I'm not sure that feel is worth the extra $300k.

So, I come here to ask you to all talk me out of it. Before I go dropping a bunch of money on an airplane, please talk me out of it. Tell me the engines are going to blow up at the first start, tell me the turbos are going to coke no matter how cool I run them, tell me doing a .297 IPC twice a year is going to destroy my motors with (simulated) engine shutdowns/failures. I want to hear it all.

Thanks in advance for the horror stories. Please don't take it personally when I inevitably don't listen to anyone and buy a plane anyway. I am, after all, a pilot...
 
Bruce Chien, @bbchien, is one of the most knowledgeable Seneca owners I have come across. Hopefully he will be by soon to share some wisdom and answer your questions.
 
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I never owned a Seneca II, but I was an MEI and PA-34 examiner at a Piper school and flew a lot of 135 trips for the same outfit. Didn't have to pay for fuel or maintenance but I didn't have to worry about one leaving me high and dry, either. I have had engine problems with other twins, but none with the Seneca II. My Baron time is probably ten percent of my Seneca time...all 135, no instruction...but no problems with the 55 either. Since I as spending your money, I would ge with the Seneca.

Bob Gardner
 
I owned a 76 model Seneca II for 10 years and 1400 hours. It was a very reliable machine and very roomy and comfortable and quiet. My wife loved the big rear door. She would ride back there--by herself usually and read or nap. Mine had forward seating and that worked fine. There is tons of baggage space and mine had a huge useful load (no ice or AC). I didn't know about l.o.p.in those days so I ran it at 22 gph and figured 165 kts average. The original engine was fine and didnt require any cylinder work. The second one did require a cyl to be sent off for repair from time to time. I attributed this to the overhaul shop doing a poor job of installing the exhaust valves. There was an AD that required the Hartzell 2 blade compact props to have the blade shanks rolled every 500 hours or so. The mags need to be gone through every 500 hours or so. It is very docile handling on one or both. vmc was 66 knots as I recall and s.e. service ceiling was 13,000 feet +.

One time I decided I wanted to "upgrade" to a B55 Baron. I found one that I was interested in and my wife and I took a demo ride in it. Afterwards our inpression of the Baron was cramped, hard to get in and out of, loud, and hot (poor ventilation) compared to the Seneca.

I still think about how nice a roomy air conditioned Seneca would be in the hot summer time but will probably just stick with my J model Mooney and continue to fly early and late.
 
Thank you for the info on the AD and such. I’d probably look for one without AC as it’s just not needed here, even in the warmest months.

I also felt the (cockpit of the) Seneca was roomier than they Baron. Interesting to hear others with the same observation.

Thank you.
 
I’m reading your initial post here, Mr. Undecided, and am curious how this panned out for you. I’m in the same boat more or less; have an aircraft purchase on the horizon and narrowed down to a Seneca II, Baron, or 310, leaning heavily towards the Seneca with the right options and upgrades. Need a flying minivan for 200-600 mile trips with the family.

What did you end up with?
 
David Palen said:
I’m reading your initial post here, Mr. Undecided, and am curious how this panned out for you. I’m in the same boat more or less; have an aircraft purchase on the horizon and narrowed down to a Seneca II, Baron, or 310, leaning heavily towards the Seneca with the right options and upgrades. Need a flying minivan for 200-600 mile trips with the family.

What did you end up with?
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Still shopping for the right plane. Lots available, but I’m not in a hurry, so I’m being picky. It’s going to be a baron (58) or Seneca of some sort.
 
With a tiny sample size, my conclusion is that a FIKI Seneca is much easier to find and pay for than a FIKI Baron.
 
iamtheari said:
With a tiny sample size, my conclusion is that a FIKI Seneca is much easier to find and pay for than a FIKI Baron.
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I agree. I thought I had one a while back but the maintenance logs were a mess. Motivated seller but I didn’t want to deal with a paperwork headache at the time. That’s too much like work.
 
Always Undecided said:
Still shopping for the right plane. Lots available, but I’m not in a hurry, so I’m being picky. It’s going to be a baron (58) or Seneca of some sort.
Click to expand...
I literally just bought a Seneca III and flew it from its home in the NE to where I live, in the PHX area.

I was initially looking at IIs, but went with the III due to the Seneca IIs Max Zero Fuel Weight limit of 4,000 lbs. With most of today's IIs clocking in at 3,200-3,300 pounds, that didn't leave much room for "stuff" before we hit the 4,000 limit. The Seneca III has a MZFW of 4,470 so you get an extra 470 lbs of junk that you can put in it.

Over 5 legs to Phoenix, we saw 24 gph giving us about 175-180 KTAS consistently each leg. We kept the legs to under 600 NM just for bathroom and comfort reasons. Everywhere we landed we had well over an hours worth of fuel on board.
 
I have very limited Multi-engine experience, but I did do my multi-engine training in a Seneca II and I was very unimpressed with the performance. I'm not talking about single-engine performance, even with two turning I didn't think the plane climbed particularly well even at sea level and several hundred pounds under gross. YMMV.
 
Always Undecided said:
Sorry if this is in the wrong section. New member here and wanted to intro myself as well as get the question out there.

I'm a late 30s professional pilot, ATP certificate with a few type ratings, around 8k total time (I'd like to retire with < 10k), current CFI/II/MEI (around 2k dual given including some jet dual given as well as the usual trainers), no debt and my own business. As they say, I'm two thirds of the way to fat, bald, and happy.

TL;DR, I'm Always Undecided and I'm an Alc--I'm a pilot.

Now that the boring stuff is out of the way, let's talk about my potential mental incapacitation. That's right, I'm in the market to purchase an airplane. This would be for personal/family transport maybe 40-50 hours a year. Not exactly high utilization, I know, but sadly there's no clubs or rental options in the area that meet my needs.

As I have an aviation related business, I would undoubtedly put this on a (my) Part 135 certificate, not for the enormous piles of money I want to make with it, but just to keep it flying reasonably regularly. I have no delusions of getting rich by owning an airplane, I just understand that these things need exercise and with my lower utilization forecast I think it's probably a good idea.

I wouldn't mind doing flight training, but I think considering the needs I have (standby..), the airplane I'm in the market for would be a terrible trainer. Not that you couldn't train in it, but I'm not interested in letting a hamfisted student pilot destroy an engine, or land with the wheels still safety secured up by locks or hydraulic fluid, to make no mention of the insurance premium.

To this end I've basically narrowed it down to a Seneca II or a Baron. I've got oodles of time in the Baron but only a handful of hours in the Seneca. I'm sure some around here have both, so I'd love to hear some horror stories, terrible maintenance bills, and I guess a pleasant anecdote about a fun trip now and then. My needs are: Ability to take 2-3 adults (or maybe 2 adults and a child or two) a reasonable distance (I'm about 300 miles to NY or Chicago, 900 to Orlando, and I don't mind stopping for gas if I want to see The Mouse), reasonably economic (under 30gph with good parts availability), and because of being located in the NE I absolutely have to have FIKI and I wouldn't fly a FIKI piston without a second motor.

As I lean towards Seneca II, I have begun to do some homework and it seems that I'd insist on putting in the Merlyn top end controller, GAMIs, and an engine analyzer. I've managed everything from single pistons to large cabin biz jets and understand the advantages of having the information to run LOP to keep things cool. I'm also not really in a super hurry so 55%-65% power is more than enough for me. Quite honestly, I'd probably be willing to pull back to 45% on personal trips because it's more about the trip than the destination for me, but I digress...

I lean Seneca II vs Baron for two reasons: 1) the cost of parts (Beech is proud of their line, and I haven't personally maintained any Piper products in >10 years so they also may be proud of theirs...teach me), and 2) Cost of acquisition. I can get into the game for half the cost in a Seneca II vs a Baron. While I loved my time in the Baron, I'm not sure that feel is worth the extra $300k.

So, I come here to ask you to all talk me out of it. Before I go dropping a bunch of money on an airplane, please talk me out of it. Tell me the engines are going to blow up at the first start, tell me the turbos are going to coke no matter how cool I run them, tell me doing a .297 IPC twice a year is going to destroy my motors with (simulated) engine shutdowns/failures. I want to hear it all.

Thanks in advance for the horror stories. Please don't take it personally when I inevitably don't listen to anyone and buy a plane anyway. I am, after all, a pilot...
Click to expand...
Nothing really to add, I just wish I could give this post more than one like!
 
kayoh190 said:
^^^ congrats @Sluggo63 ! I think I speak for more than just myself by saying pics are expected soon! :)
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It’s not technically in the Rules of Conduct, but I think we have the MC votes to add it. Congrats to @Sluggo63, now make with the pictures!
 
kayoh190 said:
^^^ congrats @Sluggo63 ! I think I speak for more than just myself by saying pics are expected soon! :)
Click to expand...

iamtheari said:
It’s not technically in the Rules of Conduct, but I think we have the MC votes to add it. Congrats to @Sluggo63, now make with the pictures!
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Thanks all!

I don’t have great glamor shots yet. Waiting for the right setting, but here’s one after the first leg to TSO, and one with the missus (and CFO of the household who signed off on this) after landing at the new home.
IMG_3221.jpg IMG_3248.jpg IMG_3251.jpg
 
Always Undecided said:
Thank you for the info on the AD and such. I’d probably look for one without AC as it’s just not needed here, even in the warmest months.

I also felt the (cockpit of the) Seneca was roomier than they Baron. Interesting to hear others with the same observation.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
The Baron and Bonanza certainly have beautiful ramp appeal but I just never found them that comfortable inside. Saratoga Seneca Lance etc big Pipers are remarkably comfortable inside
 
I have less 500 hours multi-time, almost all of it in a our flight school's Duchess, but I was at one time in the market for a twin (never pulled the trigger). The one down side I think I remember for the Seneca's was the engine OH costs. I think I remember something like $60K as opposed to $40K for Baron/310 engines? Then again I guess if you are spending $300K+ for the plane, that difference might not really be an issue.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I literally just bought a Seneca III and flew it from its home in the NE to where I live, in the PHX area.

I was initially looking at IIs, but went with the III due to the Seneca IIs Max Zero Fuel Weight limit of 4,000 lbs. With most of today's IIs clocking in at 3,200-3,300 pounds, that didn't leave much room for "stuff" before we hit the 4,000 limit. The Seneca III has a MZFW of 4,470 so you get an extra 470 lbs of junk that you can put in it.

Over 5 legs to Phoenix, we saw 24 gph giving us about 175-180 KTAS consistently each leg. We kept the legs to under 600 NM just for bathroom and comfort reasons. Everywhere we landed we had well over an hours worth of fuel on board.
Click to expand...

Congrats! Always great to add another twin piston owner to the group here! Love the pics! Nice looking bird!!
Look forward to hearing about some of your trips and adventures in it.
 
Don't even consider a Seneca (first version) because of the pitiful engines. I am biased toward the Seneca II, since I have lots of time in PA-32 and PA-34s and did my airplane ATP in a nice Seneca II.

I'd be afraid to maintain a Baron in any circumstance other than a business expense.
 
I have owned my Seneca II&1/2 (II with III engine conversion-220hp) for 15 years. And the number one reason I love my Seneca over all others in its class of twins is: turbo. As far as engine troubles go, I had two engine failures and one engine smoke in the past, all in-flight, and in twins (757, Seneca I, Travelair). In all cases, I liked the fact that I was able to fly back rather than glide. I mostly fly my Seneca in and out of shorter runways. Therefore, it is critical that I reach flyable speed asap, so I can decide either to continue flying or to stop (preferably) on the remaining runway should one of the engines fail. The turbo on my Seneca will exhaust less asphalt, especially during hot summer day take offs, than other non-turbos. Plus, she out climbs others. Sorry, I am not helping “talk you out of it”... OK, the Baron passes the Seneca once in cruise, you don’t bang your headset against the ceiling in the Baron, most find the Baron looks nicer, and the Baron feels and flies nicer/tighter, but you know that already... I am no help.:rolleyes1:
 
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