New mandatory DOL Covid poster for employees & H.R.6201

[Let'sgoflying!]

Have a look at the new poster, it attempts to summarize the eligibility for the paid vacations (tongue in cheek, of course some will be valid claims)

My question is;
of the 6 qualifying reasons, does an employee have to provide proof to the employer?
Or ..."can the employer request a Dr. note or letter from the child care provider to back up the employee's claim or do we just have to take their word?"

 

[Jamie Kirk]

I posted this flyer today and I fully expect certain employees to take advantage. When they ask I will certainly be asking for proof of the reasons are #1-3.

Remember businesses with less then 25 employees are exempt from 4-6 of it would put the company in financial strain.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

My understanding of that exemption is that
-employee claims payment based on qualifying reason.
-employer denies payment because of the (poorly defined) exemption you note.
-employee challenges this later to DOL(?)
-employer must then defend this, convincingly (likely bearing the costs of counsel to do so).
-if losing, must additionally pay penalty & interest.

 

[Jamie Kirk]

My understanding of that exemption is that
-employee claims payment based on qualifying reason.
-employer denies payment because of the (poorly defined) exemption you note.
-employee challenges this later to DOL(?)
-employer must then defend this, convincingly (likely bearing the costs of counsel to do so).
-if losing, must additionally pay penalty & interest.

I employ 12 people, and I need all 12 people for my business to operate. We are listed as an essential business so we are still open. I made work voluntary if you do not want to come to work you do not have to but we are open regular business hours for any employees who wish to come to work. We do not have the option of working remotely, out current hardware doesn't support ti and I can't spend $25k+ to change it all over for a few weeks.

Now I have 3 employees who right away think they are now going to get a 2 week fully paid vacation and then 10 weeks of vacation after.

If they choose to not come into work then they are not available to claim #1.
None are able to claim #2 and if they do I have no problem asking for proof.
If they claim #3 I will ask for proof.

Being under 50 employees I should be exempt from 5102(a)(5), no way I could operate my business and afford to pay someone for a potential 10 weeks off.
Being under 50 employees I should be exempt from 102(a)(1)(f), no way I could operate my business and afford to pay someone for a potential 10 weeks off.

On top of that I should be exempt from holding their job under 104(a)(1) because I meet all requirements under paragraph 2:
A - the employee takes leave
B - The position cannot stay vacant for 10-12 weeks and therefore would not exist
C - I can't put them in another matching position because we are too small to create new positions
D - We won;t have a related position open up within a year

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Jamie-
I am looking around to find the laws you mention below. "5102(a)(5)" et al
Thank you

Being under 50 employees I should be exempt from 5102(a)(5), no way I could operate my business and afford to pay someone for a potential 10 weeks off.
Being under 50 employees I should be exempt from 102(a)(1)(f), no way I could operate my business and afford to pay someone for a potential 10 weeks off.

On top of that I should be exempt from holding their job under 104(a)(1) because I meet all requirements under paragraph 2:
A - the employee takes leave
B - The position cannot stay vacant for 10-12 weeks and therefore would not exist
C - I can't put them in another matching position because we are too small to create new positions
D - We won;t have a related position open up within a year

 

[Fiveslide]

I feel for you all, hoping this doesn't cripple you financially.

Now I have 3 employees who right away think they are now going to get a 2 week fully paid vacation and then 10 weeks of vacation after

Pretty sure we have a guy at the animal shelter pulling this. Nobody has seen him in a few days. I have no intention of asking for any sick leave that I hadn't already accrued, but everyone isn't like that. Shame, that.

Good luck, gentlemen.

 

[Shawn]

Wait...small mom and pop businesses are expected to pay employees sick leave for their kids that are out of school due to closures per #5?...WTF?

Seriously, this is what I fired most my employees and scaled back operations awhile back. Me and my business parter could employ quite a few more people but have determined is is just not worth it anymore. We run a skeleton crew.

We actually now make more money focusing 100% on our clients vs managing employees to try and do the same work.

Go small business!

 

[jbarrass]

Wait...small mom and pop businesses are expected to pay employees sick leave for their kids that are out of school due to closures per #5?...WTF?

Seriously, this is what I fired most my employees and scaled back operations awhile back. Me and my business parter could employ quite a few more people but have determined is is just not worth it anymore. We run a skeleton crew.

We actually now make more money focusing 100% on our clients vs managing employees to try and do the same work.

Go small business!

Yup. That's exactly what it says.

 

[Shawn]

Yup. That's exactly what it says.

Amazing. What will likely happen is exactly what we are going through right now with what few employees we have...considering to just "shut down" the company for the time being to take advantage of all the freebies out of work employees have vs keeping the doors open with payroll taxes and such. There is little incentive to keep payroll going right now, especially with mandates like this that are unrealistic for a lot of small businesses.

Makes no sense to delete reserves to meet payroll with little income currently vs taking unemployment + additional benefits. Luckily we are a Corp and all employees.

Sad part is that we do not NEED to do that to survive this year, but we are now incentivized to do just that the way these programs are being rolled out.

 

[Jamie Kirk]

I feel for you all, hoping this doesn't cripple you financially.



Pretty sure we have a guy at the animal shelter pulling this. Nobody has seen him in a few days. I have no intention of asking for any sick leave that I hadn't already accrued, but everyone isn't like that. Shame, that.

Good luck, gentlemen.

Doesn’t matter, this does not take affect till April 2nd. Any time missed prior to April 2nd is not available to this plan.

 

[Jamie Kirk]

Amazing. What will likely happen is exactly what we are going through right now with what few employees we have...considering to just "shut down" the company for the time being to take advantage of all the freebies out of work employees have vs keeping the doors open with payroll taxes and such. There is little incentive to keep payroll going right now, especially with mandates like this that are unrealistic for a lot of small businesses.

Makes no sense to delete reserves to meet payroll with little income currently vs taking unemployment + additional benefits. Luckily we are a Corp and all employees.

Sad part is that we do not NEED to do that to survive this year, but we are now incentivized to do just that the way these programs are being rolled out.

Any employees laid off or furloughed by April 2nd are not available to receive these benefits.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Yes so I am learning:

-all us small employers are liable for a bunch of wages with employees at home not working.

In addition:

-the tax credit you hear about to 'compensate' us for this expense is for SOCIAL SECURITY TAX not the wages or other expenses!

What I have been unable to find is the law or official source saying how the exemption applies (the part about if the employee being away will jeopardize the viability or success of the company therefore the company can claim exemption)

 

[forsonsinc]

I heard there is a gov loan available to offset the cost of that
Haven't checked into it as we are currently functioning and look to continue despite all thats happening

 

[wsuffa]

"we're just going to make all those rich companies pay".

I've done several startups. There's a point where this becomes unaffordable and it's easier (and cheaper) to just close the company and maybe open a new one. If you're a big company, then you'll probably be fine. If you're a small company, it continues to get harder and harder to operate in the US (and some of the jurisdictions). BTDT.

 

[Jamie Kirk]

Jamie-
I am looking around to find the laws you mention below. "5102(a)(5)" et al
Thank you

Here is the actual bill if you need to read it:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6201/text

Division C: EMERGENCY FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE EXPANSION ACT
SEC. 3102. AMENDMENTS TO THE FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE ACT OF 1993.

(a) Public Health Emergency Leave.—29 U.S.C. 2612(a)(1)) is amended by adding at the end the following:


“(F) During the period beginning on the date the Emergency Family and Medical Leave Expansion Act takes effect, and ending on December 31, 2020, because of a qualifying need related to a public health emergency in accordance with section 110.”.

Exemption:
(3) REGULATORY AUTHORITIES.—The Secretary of Labor shall have the authority to issue regulations for good cause under sections 553(b)(B) and 553(d)(A) of title 5, United States Code—

“(A) to exclude certain health care providers and emergency responders from the definition of eligible employee under section 110(a)(1)(A); and

“(B) to exempt small businesses with fewer than 50 employees from the requirements of section 102(a)(1)(F) when the imposition of such requirements would jeopardize the viability of the business as a going concern.

 

[Jamie Kirk]

Yes so I am learning:

-all us small employers are liable for a bunch of wages with employees at home not working.

In addition:

-the tax credit you hear about to 'compensate' us for this expense is for SOCIAL SECURITY TAX not the wages or other expenses!

What I have been unable to find is the law or official source saying how the exemption applies (the part about if the employee being away will jeopardize the viability or success of the company therefore the company can claim exemption)

Lay off or furlough your employees by April 1st, if you do then they are not available for the sick or leave pay.

 

[jbarrass]

Lay off or furlough your employees by April 1st, if you do then they are not available for the sick or leave pay.

"unintended consequences" of a carelessly thought through bill partially explain the 3M new unemployment claims.....so far.

 

[Jamie Kirk]

"unintended consequences" of a carelessly thought through bill partially explain the 3M new unemployment claims.....so far.

This became knowledge about 10 days ago, yes this is why companies laid off and furloughed workers.

However, what these companies didn't know is how the CARES act now disqualifies them from a lot of the relief. The CARES act requires that employers keep the same payroll through June to qualify.

This is why I have been paying people like normal. I am running numbers and reading the entire ENTIRE 880 page CARES act to make sure I understand it. If it works out better to pay them and file for relief through CARES then I'll do that. If it works out better to furlough everyone I'll do that tomorrow March 31st.

 

[jbarrass]

A restaurant in my neighborhood announced they would pay the wait staff until they were allowed to re-open. They had to recant within 24 hours, the employees were pretty upset. While she would pay 100% of their base rate, Unemployment now pays 100% of their base rate, plus reported tips, plus $600 per week. So he furloughed them, employees are better off not working than working in many cases.

Not likely the business will survive for them to come back to though. Restaurants are a tough business in good times, moreso with all the "help" they are getting.

 

[forsonsinc]

Today i heard a couple of small business owners I know discussing.
They are getting paperwork done for the relief loan in hopes of qualifying for the loan forgiveness couple of months later.
Substantial increase in their income if that happens

 

[Jamie Kirk]

A restaurant in my neighborhood announced they would pay the wait staff until they were allowed to re-open. They had to recant within 24 hours, the employees were pretty upset. While she would pay 100% of their base rate, Unemployment now pays 100% of their base rate, plus reported tips, plus $600 per week. So he furloughed them, employees are better off not working than working in many cases.

Not likely the business will survive for them to come back to though. Restaurants are a tough business in good times, moreso with all the "help" they are getting.

Unemployment ins any state does not pay 100% of missed wages.

However, with the $600 additional from the feds, a lot of works will actually make MORE money staying unemployed. This will hurt businesses when this over as workers will choose to continue the summer vacation with free money than going back to work.

 

[DesertNomad]

Today i heard a couple of small business owners I know discussing.
They are getting paperwork done for the relief loan in hopes of qualifying for the loan forgiveness couple of months later.
Substantial increase in there income if that happens

I am doing the same for my company but have not seen any official applications for this. It will certainly not substantially increase my income but it may allow my business to survive and keep my wife and I off unemployment. I have a call into my bank and they say they will call me back when they have more info. One unusual situation I have is an independent contractor in the Czech Republic (I lived in Prague for 12 years and hired him when I was living there - he still works for me) and nobody knows if the wages/fees I pay to him are going to be counted.

 

[forsonsinc]

I could not say.
Do not give up and If perhaps your business does fail, start another.