New Interesting Planes - Why do they come from Europe?

[Tantalum]

So basically you are saying people don't want to spend money?

Basically, yes, haha. But if it was "easier" they might. Look at Tesla sales and people flocking to drop their money on the latest and greatest Apple offering and paying ludicrous prices to live in some of the most expensive cities in the world. There's money out there, but people have lost their threshold for hard work and something that's not an instant gratification

 

[Silvaire]

... There's money out there, but people have lost their threshold for hard work and something that's not an instant gratification

Really? I mean, granted, there is that segment but I got news for you - it has always existed. It's not like there weren't any slackers in the 70's. I don't think society is that much different overall, at least not to the extent that people tend to imagine. We live in the present and all of the problems of the past seem dim and fuzzy, even to those of us who were there at the time. I've been flying for over 50 years now and the state of GA here in the US isn't really all that much different than it was in 1969. It's been through some ups and downs and currently I'd say it's in a general upswing.

 

[Tantalum]

I've been flying for over 50 years now and the state of GA here in the US isn't really all that much different than it was in 1969

That's promising! I hope you're right. And that's true.. the problems of the present always seem "the worst" .. hopefully I'm wrong. Sad to see idle ramps and planes with flat tires rotting away. Bu tI do feel like the golden age of GA was several decades ago.. there was a big selection of singles, twins, etc., something out there for everyone

 

[Everskyward]

Even in the 80s, when I was instructing, I think that many people underestimated the time and commitment to study that it takes. I've met quite a few people recently who started to learn, and may have even gotten their private, but who gave it up for whatever reason. Now that I am not flying for a job, I often get asked if I do it for fun. I usually use the 'too expensive' excuse, which is not precisely true. I could afford it, but I choose to spend my money on other things. Besides that there is the BTDT issue. But, in all honesty, it doesn't seem as appealing to me as it did when I was 20. I had the misconception that flying was being free like a bird. Then I found out it was one of the most highly regulated hobbies around. But it wasn't quite as bad in the 1970s and 80s.

 

[Echo419]

As a "millennial" I can speak to my own experience growing up that I didn't know GA was a thing. I knew being a pilot was a job one could have. It never occurred to me that it could also be a hobby.

 

[Tantalum]

As a "millennial" I can speak to my own experience growing up that I didn't know GA was a thing. I knew being a pilot was a job one could have. It never occurred to me that it could also be a hobby.

Honestly, me either.. until I started taking lessons and thought it was the absolute coolest thing in the world that I'd one day be able to take up a small plane privately, on my own. I wanted to go commercial but so many "real" pilots I talked to basically told me it was a miserable job where I'd never see my family, make little money, and eventually get divorced, furloughed, and end up selling used cars. This one guy in particular painted a pretty dire picture if what it would be like flying commercial for a living

Granted, I also started *really* flying and getting into training in 2002.. so the climate was not very commercial pilot friendly. I believe today, or at least pre-covid, it was much more promising. Oh well, I can live that "other life" vicariously now through a few friends and my nephew

 

[Velocity173]

I’ve seen just as many new and exciting American designs at OSH. Unfortunately, like the European market, hardly any of them succeed on a mass market scale. So really, how many of these new European designs listed will actually succeed?

I don’t know how many times I’ve seen excitement over some foreign aircraft only for it to stagnate and fade away. The Speed Canard was listed above. Love that aircraft. 62 versions made, done. I went flying in a D4 Fascination in GE once. Awesome plane. AOPA article made it sound like they’d be all over the States. Never happened. The Eagle 150 canard. Another new and exciting aircraft that never made it.

So really, these new designs have a few hurdles in the US market. First, they just can’t compete with the certified establishment. Second, for the two seat models, you already have a healthy EAB market that they’ll have to overcome. For instance, I’ve been watching a lot of Black Shape Prime vids on YT recently. Another great two seat aircraft coming out of Europe but why would I pay $180,000 when I could get better performance out of a used RV8A at half the costs and IFR?

So yeah, while it would seem that these new models are going to storm onto the GA world scene, I seriously doubt there’s a large market for them.

 

[Bob Noel]

As a "millennial" I can speak to my own experience growing up that I didn't know GA was a thing. I knew being a pilot was a job one could have. It never occurred to me that it could also be a hobby.

I'm not a "millenial"... I'm waaaaay too old for that.

When I was about 9 or 10 years, a friend of my father took me up for a short cross-country.

I was HOOKED.

It took me a while to have enough $$$ and time, but it was going to happen one way or another.

 

[bflynn]

As a "millennial" I can speak to my own experience growing up that I didn't know GA was a thing. I knew being a pilot was a job one could have. It never occurred to me that it could also be a hobby.

It's a shame that anyone's views are so limited.

Sometimes it's a mystery to me why some people live like they do. There's so many good things happening out there, they don't even have a clue.

To me, it feels like we've almost reached the point of people saying "I can't imagine it, so you can't be permitted to do it."

 

[Echo419]

When I was about 9 or 10 years, a friend of my father took me up for a short cross-country.

I was HOOKED.

Yeah, at some point you have to be exposed to it. I never was. I'm not even sure when I became aware/interested, it was sometime in the last year. I haven't had a discovery flight yet, I need to get out of student loan debt first.

 

[kayoh190]

Sad to see idle ramps and planes with flat tires rotting away. Bu tI do feel like the golden age of GA was several decades ago.. there was a big selection of singles, twins, etc., something out there for everyone

It really is sad, and I feel the same way. I have a lot less time in this hobby than many here, but I've seen the shift myself in the last couple of decades.

 

[denverpilot]

$1500 a monty for going out and basics? GtFO.

It’s pretty realistic in high cost of living areas.

Our housing prices topped an average of $500K here recently and today’s “news” was that “Millenials are flocking here”. That’s an average that includes all the really old junk properties. Newer stuff is higher or right at half a million. And the folks moving here say they’re getting a screaming deal.

Not sure what jobs they think they’re going to find that can ever afford them a house, but they don’t seem too concerned. Big debt doesn’t worry them at all.

Let alone affording expensive hobbies.

I wouldn’t move here. Not now. We’ll likely get priced right out of ever moving back into the urban area of Denver. Next time we move it’ll likely be out of the State.

Denver has always been boom and bust since her beginning. The bust is gonna be impressive at the next one. Cow town always crashes eventually.

I wonder how many of the $1.2M bog standard houses with two acres maybe around them up the road in the “ranch” will be standing vacant. And for how long.

Right now it’s quite the landlord market if you got in years ago. They’re pretty much just naming their prices right now if the property is even mediocre nice.

 

[Shepherd]

Yeah, at some point you have to be exposed to it. I never was. I'm not even sure when I became aware/interested, it was sometime in the last year. I haven't had a discovery flight yet, I need to get out of student loan debt first.

Exposure is key. You need to get the in air experience to become addicted.
That ability to get the experience was essentially eliminated by 9/11.
Prior to 9/11 most small airports had no fences, no gates, almost no restrictions to accessing the field. You could walk up and touch airplanes. Pilots and aircraft owners would talk to you and answer question and you would watch them climb in and fly off and think "I'm going to do that some day." If you were really lucky you would get invited to take a short hop.
Now, you can't get close enough to the airfield to identify most planes.
This next bit is just an unscientific observation of a couple of the airports I fly into.
GBR has no fences, no gates, sits sort of in the middle of nothing, and the flight school there has 6 full time pilots (and is hiring another) and all the planes are fully booked almost all day every day. People drive 2+ hours to take lessons there. Oh and the parking lot usually has people taking pictures, and people ride their bikes and use the picnic tables, and there are a lot of school groups there visiting, taking pictures, even art students.

44N has gates and fences, sits sort of in the middle of nothing. No flight school. The only reason people go there is cheap gas.

DXR looks like a prison, sits in a large city and the flights schools there are all struggling. I used to fly there, and the only time planes were in use was weekends. I could walk in there and take my pick of any of the Cessnas or the Warrior.

N82, no fences. Doing a great business.

Just my humble opinion. Tear down the fences.

 

[genna]

Exposure is key. You need to get the in air experience to become addicted.
That ability to get the experience was essentially eliminated by 9/11.
Prior to 9/11 most small airports had no fences, no gates, almost no restrictions to accessing the field. You could walk up and touch airplanes. Pilots and aircraft owners would talk to you and answer question and you would watch them climb in and fly off and think "I'm going to do that some day." If you were really lucky you would get invited to take a short hop.
Now, you can't get close enough to the airfield to identify most planes.
This next bit is just an unscientific observation of a couple of the airports I fly into.
GBR has no fences, no gates, sits sort of in the middle of nothing, and the flight school there has 6 full time pilots (and is hiring another) and all the planes are fully booked almost all day every day. People drive 2+ hours to take lessons there. Oh and the parking lot usually has people taking pictures, and people ride their bikes and use the picnic tables, and there are a lot of school groups there visiting, taking pictures, even art students.

44N has gates and fences, sits sort of in the middle of nothing. No flight school. The only reason people go there is cheap gas.

DXR looks like a prison, sits in a large city and the flights schools there are all struggling. I used to fly there, and the only time planes were in use was weekends. I could walk in there and take my pick of any of the Cessnas or the Warrior.

N82, no fences. Doing a great business.

Just my humble opinion. Tear down the fences.

You're onto something here. Couple of weeks ago I flew to the First Flight. It has a nominal fence, but the runway and the ramp are right next to one of the parking lots and close to the monument with tourists. Lots of people watching airplanes and taking videos. Kids are definitely interested in parked planes. As I was taxiing for take off, I looked and saw a crowd of people all with their phones pointed at me. Felt some pressure too as it was windy and gusty.

Edit. I semi-accidentally(I knew they were on vacation in the area, but didn't know they went to the monument that day) ran into a friend down there. His 6 yo got to sit in the GA plane for first time smiling all the way.

 

[AGLyme]

44N has an excellent restaurant on the field... a very good reason to go... and yes, many pilot owners go way out of their way to get the cheap gas.

 

[Silvaire]

For me the bug was initiated at a very early age through models. Control line at first and then some very crude 2 channel R/C. It wasn't until I was 13 that I got my first ride in a Cessna. Today kids just get a ready to fly drone and end up staring at their phone like they do all the time anyway.

 

[Seanaldinho]

I have noticed a lot of airports in Germany without fences and airport cafes that have a small garden fence or nothing at all to delineate the apron from the restaurant. They almost all have playgrounds for kids and its just a more relaxed setting compared to airports in the US. They've all been small grass strips with decent traffic counts including sightseeing flights, glider clubs, helicopter rides, etc.

 

[jrollf]

I have noticed a lot of airports in Germany without fences and airport cafes that have a small garden fence or nothing at all to delineate the apron from the restaurant. They almost all have playgrounds for kids and its just a more relaxed setting compared to airports in the US. They've all been small grass strips with decent traffic counts including sightseeing flights, glider clubs, helicopter rides, etc.

Unfortunately that is now rare in the US thanks to TSA. Any airport that has a decent amount of traffic, even small GA, is forced to put up fences, gates and no trespassing signs until they look like prison camps. Because you know, that Cessnq 172 is going to get hijacked and used to single handedly destroy all of metro Los Angeles.

 

[FormerHangie]

Basically, yes, haha. But if it was "easier" they might. Look at Tesla sales and people flocking to drop their money on the latest and greatest Apple offering and paying ludicrous prices to live in some of the most expensive cities in the world. There's money out there, but people have lost their threshold for hard work and something that's not an instant gratification

That's rather arrogant, don't you think? Just because fewer people are interested in general aviation doesn't mean they've lost "their threshold for hard work", it means they don't want what general aviation has to offer. Look at the number of marathons run and iron distance triathlons finished. For that matter, look at the number of hours worked by the average person. Last month, I got a meeting invite. It was for a server migration, starting at 10 PM Saturday night, ending at 8 AM Sunday morning. After that, I got a few hours sleep and then went back to work. A 60 hour week preceded the meeting and two sixty hour weeks followed. Nobody griped, we just sucked it up and got it done. The reward for this? A $30 gift basket.

Even in the 80s, when I was instructing, I think that many people underestimated the time and commitment to study that it takes. I've met quite a few people recently who started to learn, and may have even gotten their private, but who gave it up for whatever reason. Now that I am not flying for a job, I often get asked if I do it for fun. I usually use the 'too expensive' excuse, which is not precisely true. I could afford it, but I choose to spend my money on other things. Besides that there is the BTDT issue. But, in all honesty, it doesn't seem as appealing to me as it did when I was 20. I had the misconception that flying was being free like a bird. Then I found out it was one of the most highly regulated hobbies around. But it wasn't quite as bad in the 1970s and 80s.

Hang gliding and paragliding are that "free as a bird" flying you are talking about.

 

[Tantalum]

That's rather arrogant, don't you think? Just because fewer people are interested in general aviation doesn't mean they've lost "their threshold for hard work", it means they don't want what general aviation has to offer. Look at the number of marathons run and iron distance triathlons finished. For that matter, look at the number of hours worked by the average person. Last month, I got a meeting invite. It was for a server migration, starting at 10 PM Saturday night, ending at 8 AM Sunday morning. After that, I got a few hours sleep and then went back to work. A 60 hour week preceded the meeting and two sixty hour weeks followed. Nobody griped, we just sucked it up and got it done. The reward for this? A $30 gift basket

I hope I'm wrong and you're right. I'm just trying to understand why people don't pursue something that is one of the coolest things and before 1903 was not really possible

There's hard "work" out there but that is not elective.. you *have* to put food on the table.

But maybe you're right, though that's heart breaking if true that people still want to work hard, just not to see the world from above

 

[FormerHangie]

I hope I'm wrong and you're right. I'm just trying to understand why people don't pursue something that is one of the coolest things and before 1903 was not really possible

There's hard "work" out there but that is not elective.. you *have* to put food on the table.

But maybe you're right, though that's heart breaking if true that people still want to work hard, just not to see the world from above

Most people don't want what general aviation offers, which is an alternate form of regional travel at a high price, both in time and money. Even if you do have the want, getting a private ticket is tough sledding if you're working 8 to 5, and it's spendy, really spendy if you're near a city. The nearest field to me is KPDK, and a hour in a Skyhawk is $160 at the cheaper school, plus instructor. They also have a Cherokee 140 that goes for $115 per hour, and they estimate that the average person will spend $12,000 to get their private in that airplane. Then there's the issue of finding time. I typically work 8 to 5:30, and I make dinner four nights week. The only time I could possibly fly would be on Thursdays and a weekend day. Part of it is being older, but at the end of a workday I'm not really looking for something that's mentally challenging. I was thinking about taking up trike flying, but came to the conclusion that the logistics wouldn't work, I wouldn't get to the airport often enough to maintain proficiency.

Be glad more people don't want to fly, the airports are crowded enough and hangars (and in some places, tiedowns) are hard enough to come by.

 

[Silvaire]

Let’s get some perspective here. I was a junior in high school in 1969 when I took my first flying lesson and, as far as I know, I was the only one in my class or possibly at the whole school who was doing that. It’s not like there was a group of us. So if that was the “golden age” that some people are imagining I don’t think it was quite what they are thinking it was. GA has been through a lot of slumps through the years, probably the first one was 1947 after numerous manufacturers had built tens of thousands of small airplanes that nobody bought. The situation today is not really that dire.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I'm just trying to understand why people don't pursue something that is one of the coolest things and before 1903 was not really possible

If you're looking for a simple concise answer to that question, I don't think you'll ever find it. There are many factors that all contribute. Firstly, people have never really flocked to flight schools in large numbers. Aviation has always been something that only a tiny fraction of the population ended up pursuing. Cost of entry has always been prohibitively high and will continue to be.

I think technology, or the lack of it, is becoming more and more of a factor for many. Even in the late 90's when I learned to fly, you could buy a viable used car with a carburetor in it and use it as a daily driver. So it didn't seem so out of the ordinary that most of the GA fleet were equipped with state of art technology from 1951. But the reality is a large number of the fleet is still those same airplanes that are still equipped with that same 1951 technology. I don't think you could buy a car with manual crank windows if you wanted to today. But if I want to open a vent for fresh air in most of the GA fleet, I'm pulling a knob that's connected to the brake cable off a 10-speed bicycle which moves a little door somewhere. If you were born after 1990, that just seems positively antique to you. And that's our GA fleet.

So as cool as flying is, convincing a young generation to scrimp and save every last penny so they can afford to spend it renting a machine full technology that was impressive and ground breaking to their grandparents is going to be kind of a hard sell. And yes, I know there are flight schools out there with fleets that are much newer. But they are the exception, not the rule. And again its a factor, but only a factor. There are many other factors as well.

 

[Glen R]

Certainly not a new design but a good one, and various owners couldn't make the business model work.

https://trueflightaerospace.com/

Several bankruptcies for prior owners and the latest owner hasn't had an update on their website in years. A Tiger with an IO-360 would nicely fill the gap between Cirrus, Piper and Cessna single engines. It should cost half of the Cirrus and at least be comparable with the other two while performing better. This design still holds up.

 

[denverpilot]

Just my humble opinion. Tear down the fences.

But the tiny terrorists will win!!!

LOL...

 

[Juliet Hotel]

A Tiger with an IO-360 would nicely fill the gap between Cirrus, Piper and Cessna single engines.

IO-390. If you're gonna do it, do it right.

 

[NordicDave]

Certainly not a new design but a good one, and various owners couldn't make the business model work.

https://trueflightaerospace.com/

Several bankruptcies for prior owners and the latest owner hasn't had an update on their website in years. A Tiger with an IO-360 would nicely fill the gap between Cirrus, Piper and Cessna single engines. It should cost half of the Cirrus and at least be comparable with the other two while performing better. This design still holds up.

Oh my, that's good news as it looks like they are rebooting the Tiger with a fuel injected engine.

Also noticed they are on the same field as Peter and the Raptor - Valdosta, GA. Wonder if he'll wonder on down to get some tips?

 

[Glen R]

Oh my, that's good news as it looks like they are rebooting the Tiger with a fuel injected engine.

Also noticed they are on the same field as Peter and the Raptor - Valdosta, GA. Wonder if he'll wonder on down to get some tips?

My point was there has been no public update from them in years best as I can tell. Looks dead in the water. In 2009 they were anticipating pricing from 205K to 310k depending on options. That would be a very marketable airplane.

 

[Shepherd]

But the tiny terrorists will win!!!

LOL...

They won the minute the first fence went up.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

They won the minute the first fence went up.

When I growing up my dad used to drive us over to the local airport once in a while to watch the planes take off and land. That was a small GA airport, not much going on. The entire airport and ramp area had a fence around it. So apparently the the terrorists won way back in the 1970's.

 

[Everskyward]

I never hung out at airports when I was a kid. I took a ride in a helicopter with my dad at a county fair when I was fairly young, and can remember seeing the Old Rhinebeck show. But other than that, my first ride in a small airplane was my first lesson. No one in my family was a pilot, and I don't remember anyone in High School talking about it. I knew quite a number of pilots in college, but then I learned at a college flying club. No academic aviation program, though.