new airplane buyers - be aware lenders wont finance past TBO engines

I don't know the OP, but it's possible he wants the loan so he can keep a chunk of liquid assets for just such an eventuality. This way he can pay the loan back as finances allow while having a fund for unexpected maintenance.

John
That's fine, and I'm not judging folks who finance, just hoping that they have thought the whole thing through.

I did something similar when I bought my Twin Beech. I financed about $40k of it since I bought the airplane before selling my Baron and I wanted to make sure I still had cash on hand to operate. Then I paid off the loan a few months later once the Baron sold.
 
Regarding the 401K loan, I have already looked at this as an option should that "deal of the century" come into my cross wires...

I can borrow up to 45% of my balance, pay interest on the loan, pay a one time loan establishment fee... $250.00, don't have to fill out a gazillion forms, and have the money in three days... this is no way has an effect on my taxes.

But again, this is a fall back and only if the Deal of the Century, that is if I had to go liquid could I walk away from the plane with more money in my pocket while selling it at a fire sale price.
 
Borrow against home equity. Low interest, tax advantages. I agree with the previous post about borrowing for toys. If I can't pay cash I can't afford it. Airplane purchase is just the initial expense. You'll need a lot more after you buy it.

As for lenders and TBO/high airframe times? They aren't interested in the emotional side of a purchase. They'll be the lien holder on an asset. If the asset isn't marketable in terms they like they have no reason to lend. They don't owe you anything, it's a business decision. You might consider their position when you're looking at what to buy.
 
Be careful with 401k loans. If you leave your employer (quit or fired) some plans require you to pay back any outstanding loan balance or it gets converted to a withdrawal with the associated taxes and penalties.
 
$50k limit plus 10% withdraw penalty from IRS, plus another 10% interest (or more) from your custodian.

If he has a "self directed/solo 401k" where he's his own custodian, then he's good to go for a $50k penalty/interest free loan. ;)

@midcap If he doesn't have a solo/self directed 401k and is part of a so-called defined benefit plan, I can almost guarantee you his custodian will impose fees/penalties on him for wanting to borrow "their" money... even though the money is his own. I went through all this crap many years ago when deciding how/who to set-up my 401k with. I went the self directed/solo route and am the custodian/beneficiary/trustee of my own plan. If I want a loan, it takes me about 15 seconds to do the paperwork and make the transfer. If I want to buy a gold coins, takes less than 5 seconds to complete the transaction. ;)

Early withdraw, not on a loan. I misread he wanted a loan and was not taking a withdrawal. However, custodian interest/fees/penalties and length of loan are what ever is defined in his plan.

From your first two replies, it seems like you read that he was talking about a loan and you were then proven wrong about the penalties. Now you want to say that you did not understand he wanted a loan. Really?
 
@DutchRoller WOW! Do you feeeeeel better now? :rolleyes:

Just an FYI since you're such an expert and everything. His custodian can charge whatever the hell they want (i.e.; penalties, interest, fees, etc. etc.) wether a loan or an early withdrawal since he has to abide by whatever his benefit plan dictates. Thus the reason why I run my own plan. I don't have to abide by all that BS. ;)
 
@DutchRoller WOW! Do you feeeeeel better now? :rolleyes:

Just an FYI since you're such an expert and everything. His custodian can charge whatever the hell they want (i.e.; penalties, interest, fees, etc. etc.) wether a loan or an early withdrawal since he has to abide by whatever his benefit plan dictates. Thus the reason why I run my own plan. I don't have to abide by all that BS. ;)

Yes, you know everything about everything. We all know that.
 
That's what I did. The interest is deductible on taxes. Of course I paid it off fairly fast. This assumes, of course, there's enough equity in the house to qualify for the HELOC. Another advantage, no one asks what you're going to do with the money, and the interest is much lower than any other type of loan. I think I was paying about 3%.

Im guessing with a HELOC you are leveraging your house. I would have a hard time using my house as collateral for a plane. Something stupid happens and you lose your house over the line of credit..Unless of course it doesn't work that way. I don't know never looked into it. Just going off what I think.
 
Im guessing with a HELOC you are leveraging your house. I would have a hard time using my house as collateral for a plane. Something stupid happens and you lose your house over the line of credit..Unless of course it doesn't work that way. I don't know never looked into it. Just going off what I think.
Always that possibility. However most HELOC lenders take a second position to the original mortgage. If s**t hit the fan they just lien the property in addition to the plane and see what they could get from any proceeds.
 
Im guessing with a HELOC you are leveraging your house. I would have a hard time using my house as collateral for a plane. Something stupid happens and you lose your house over the line of credit..Unless of course it doesn't work that way. I don't know never looked into it. Just going off what I think.
HELOC .. .home equity line of credit. You need sufficient equity in the house. I paid 50% of the airplane in cash, the rest from the LOC. In my case, the house was paid off so I took a line of credit about 15% of the home value, knowing I could pay it off in a short time ( less than any loan being offered ) . The advantage - at the time ( and still now ) the LOC was 3% and investments paid 6%. So it made no sense to dig into savings. All this assumes it's in your best financial interest. I don't recommend or anything else, just reporting my experience.
 
There are penalties in certain situations. If the 401k is set up under an employee benefits package, than any sort of job termination results in repayment of their loan within 60 days. If they don’t, the amount they borrowed is considered a distribution, which IS taxed and a 10% penalty is thrown onto it, but that's only if the borrower is under 59 and a half. Personally, I would never advocate for anybody to borrow against their 401k, whether or not it's self funded or part of your employer's benefits. It's sabotaging your retirement and certainly not a wise choice to make, especially to purchase an airplane.

You can do as you wish, but that's my 2c.

yes, and then some plans allow partial distributions when 55 or older.
 
Try Banterra. My buddy is financing his Cirrus with them - the engine has 2100 hours on it and they don't seem to care.
 
Some folks I've met have used AirFleet Capital on the past and report good things. @WannFly, you might give them a call.

http://www.airfleetcapital.com/single-or-twin-aircraft-loans.html
I used AFC for my aircraft. The interest rate is a little higher than a HELOC, but your house is not on the line. In my case, I used a loan to minimize the amount I had to personally capitalize the business that was created around its leaseback. It is true I could pay cash if needed, but keeping the money in my personal bucket vs. the company bucket was attractive.

They've been great. They understand the business and were willing to go the extra mile when the seller wasn't being as responsive as needed.
 
My $0.02....

This is one of those topics that people have their own deep-seated thoughts about as have already been expressed.

Would it be nice to have a million in cash sitting in an aviation fun fund...sure. Is that realistic for most, no. I'm in the camp that likes the idea of financing an airplane (especially with low rates). Could I have just saved 6 figures first then paid cash, yes but I want to start enjoying it now and renting for 330 an hour diminishes the savings rate. Some will say that in addition to paying cash you need to have a maintenance reserve in case your props/engine(s) need overhaul before you think. Where does that end? Want a 100 grand plane but not purchasing till you have 200K in the bank?

Here's the way I see it, everyone's financial situation is different. Do what's responsibly best for you and makes you the happiest. Could I have done a Heloc instead, yes but I like the 300 grand equity right where it is for a dark and rainy day. Could I take a 401K loan? Yes but I like the money in there making much more than the finance rate of the loan. There are people who finance a 100K plane but have a household income in excess of 33K a month. Pretty sure they can afford to keep a financed airplane properly maintained and flying.

Good luck in your purchase/ownership journey. I have nothing but excellent things to say about Dorr Aviation as a finance company if you haven't settled on one yet.
 
Thanks for posting - good info for the first time aircraft purchaser.

It's also good information for sellers, with so many buyers willing to do it via debt on a depreciating asset. Selling at the end of engine time means you've cut your possible buyer's list in half or likely more than half.


Not a fan of using a home as collateral against a depreciating non-business, non-revenue-generating asset.

Be careful with 401k loans. If you leave your employer (quit or fired) some plans require you to pay back any outstanding loan balance or it gets converted to a withdrawal with the associated taxes and penalties.

This. If you don't have a plan for Murphy, he'll show up with his cousins, Dumb, Stupid, and Broke and all four of them will kick you in the nuts.


Watch out on those fees, too. Depending on the plan, you may find you're paying them the equivalent of a very high interest rate to loan you your own money.

You're better off, if you know you're going to buy a big ticket item, to be saving and investing outside of a retirement account for it. Then the loan becomes just a decision of liquidity and the banks will make manually underwritten loans based on the capital you have on hand. Even better, just write a check. Understand the whole "renting eats into savings" problem but most folks can squeeze hard for two years and save a bit.

It's not a lifetime savings thing just a hard couple of years. We're doing it right now for a long-term goal and the biggest lifestyle change was to stop eating out, period. Almost none. It's amazing what you can dig out of a budget when you have a hard written goal and see the numbers not moving or even rolling backward away from the goal. Most people that can afford to fly can bust their butts on a hard budget and find money to save.

If I had to finance, I'd just be looking at the stuff that the lenders will finance. There's a reason the high time engine gives them heartburn. They suspect you don't have the cash on hand to put an engine on it TOMORROW when the oil change finds metal in the filter. You needed a loan to buy the thing, after all.

If it's beyond THEIR risk level, it's almost always WAY above the level of risk you should be taking on. And this is the business that's already nearly crashed the *world* economy (multiple times) with too much risk... and needed government bailouts. Nobody is coming to bail individuals out, so watch the real risks. They're real. Murphy loves optimists.
 
just learned it the hard way, if you are looking at a past TBO engine (or event at 1700 + hrs) none of the AOPA lenders are going to finance it. spoke at length with the AOPA finance guy and he categorically mentioned that lenders like mid time engines, some will go till 1400-1500, NONE will go past 1700. the magic 2000 number has good hold everywhere
During the discussion i also came to know that this is true to high air-frame birds as well. anything above 8k on airframe and you have an uphill battle getting a rate, let alone a good rate.
wish i knew this before wasting a boatload of time for my mechanic, the seller and sellers mechanic. posting it here so that other first time buyers are aware.

now someone please flame me for even thinking about loan for a hobby

I was just on an AOPA site, are they really quoting >8%?
 
Why are people calling airplanes depreciating assets? A few year old Cirrus, yes, it definitely will depreciate. But a 30-40 year old plane? Hardly.
 
Why are people calling airplanes depreciating assets? A few year old Cirrus, yes, it definitely will depreciate. But a 30-40 year old plane? Hardly.

Buy one, fly the engine past TBO (the whole point of this thread) and let us know if you get the price you paid for it.

Every hour on the engine costs a fixed amount in lower resale value. If you dump capital into something maintaining it to get it back to what you bought it for, it's a depreciating asset. Worse, sometimes the aircraft market goes soft. We aren't at the peak pricing-wise as it relates to inflation, that was quite a while ago. Prices have been coming slowly up for a while but not outpacing inflation by a whole lot, if at all on some airframes with weak or nonexistent factory support.

Want to see the worst version, ask anyone who owns a light twin if they can sell it with two past-TBO engines for anywhere close to what they bought it for, and notice what the price tags are on such twins.

Depreciation or "maintenance costs", whichever way you like to label it, bottom line is every hour you fly it, its worth less than the hour before... until you poop the cash to hang a "new" engine on it.

Same thing with cars. Most new cars lose 70% of their value in the first four years off the dealer's lot.

You can buy a whole pile of light twins at prices well below what my Skylane is worth. They then need more than what my Skylane is worth in new engines, props, and usually some other work done to them, the day after you buy them.

If we calculated in loss of resale value on a per hour basis, airplanes look horrid on paper. Most of us do at least set aside an engine fund on a per-hour basis to cover the losses the aircraft is constantly incurring.
 
I'm surprised it hasn't already been mentioned (unless I just missed it) that most banks that do aircraft loans will finance an engine overhaul or avionics upgrade into the loan.

When I was looking at an airplane last year that was over TBO I checked with First Pryority Bank (Pryor, OK), USAF, and NAFCO and all of them will include an engine overhaul and avionics upgrades in the loan using the value of the airplane after the overhaul/upgrades. If I remember correctly, First Pryority Bank didn't seem to have a problem loaning on an airplane even over TBO.

Beware though that USAF will only loan up to the VREF value of the airplane depreciated over the life of the loan. All other banks that I talked to will loan up to the current VREF or Airplane Blue Book value, or an average of the two.
 
Im guessing with a HELOC you are leveraging your house. I would have a hard time using my house as collateral for a plane. Something stupid happens and you lose your house over the line of credit..Unless of course it doesn't work that way. I don't know never looked into it. Just going off what I think.
I used a HELOC, 3% money plus a deduction. Cheapest, easiest loan, just wrote a check.
 
Why are people calling airplanes depreciating assets? A few year old Cirrus, yes, it definitely will depreciate. But a 30-40 year old plane? Hardly.
Something that depreciates even faster is the number of years you are physically capable of flying. You can always get more money, but you can never get more time.
 
Not all planes depreciate, and not all planes are financed. Mine was neither. That is my point.

Fair enough. The geberal point that financing things with engines on them usually isn't sound, still stands. Airplanes have gone way up and wa down and partially back up all in my short time as an owner. They're not stable at all, because they ride waves of "market confidence" as big toys.

Right now airplanes are mostly back "up" but repair components are WAY up. For certified aircraft anyway...
 
Fair enough. The geberal point that financing things with engines on them usually isn't sound, still stands. Airplanes have gone way up and wa down and partially back up all in my short time as an owner. They're not stable at all, because they ride waves of "market confidence" as big toys.

Right now airplanes are mostly back "up" but repair components are WAY up. For certified aircraft anyway...

If you fly a lot, owning an airplane vs. renting makes a lot of sense. After the purchase v. sales price appreciation my total hourly cost (including everything, even FBO fees) was $56/hr. I saved almost 20'000 (well, if you use 1.15 tach vs. hobbs, I saved over 20k) compared to renting in 6 months.
 
If you fly a lot, owning an airplane vs. renting makes a lot of sense. After the purchase v. sales price appreciation my total hourly cost (including everything, even FBO fees) was $56/hr. I saved almost 20'000 (well, if you use 1.15 tach vs. hobbs, I saved over 20k) compared to renting in 6 months.

Do your numbers above include setting aside dollars per hour for all items on the aircraft that must be repaired/replaced for wear?

It works in the short term.

If you flew it long enough to replace/rebuild the engine, the hourly comes close to being back in line with most rentals.

Tires, brakes, vacuum pump, alternator, avionics failures / upgrades, interior, paint, etc. All that stuff, even the "optional" stuff eventually has to be done, or the airplane won't be in the condition it once was.

Rentals usually have very little profit margin.
 
One big downside of 401(k) loans (if your plan allows them) is that they become instantly due if you leave the employer.

Back when I financed with the AOPA (MBNA/MNB/NATIONS BANK/BofA as it kept morphing), all they wanted was a loan amount comparable to the blue book value they looked up. I think there was an adjustment for engine time to the price, but there was no absolute prohibition on high time engines (mine was past calendar tbo when I bought it).
 
Do your numbers above include setting aside dollars per hour for all items on the aircraft that must be repaired/replaced for wear?

It works in the short term.

If you flew it long enough to replace/rebuild the engine, the hourly comes close to being back in line with most rentals.

Tires, brakes, vacuum pump, alternator, avionics failures / upgrades, interior, paint, etc. All that stuff, even the "optional" stuff eventually has to be done, or the airplane won't be in the condition it once was.

Rentals usually have very little profit margin.

It included brakes, an alternator, an upgraded navcomm, a new mag, new AI etc. Rentals have to pay commercial insurance, which is a big cost item for them. It is VERY difficult as a private owner to fly a C150 and have it cost you $100/hr, unless you fly 10 hours a year (or park it at Signature and use their shop for everything). I flew 60 hours/month.

I bought a plane with almost 0 time engine, had I flown all 1800 hours until TBO, I could've bought 3 engines with just the savings vs. renting. Your engine math doesn't work, because assuming a VERY high end overhaul for O-200, 18000USD, it's only 10/hour for the engine "fund", and the plane does not lose 18000 of it's value if the engine is making metal. A $22k 0-hour 150 is not a $4k 150 if it needs an overhaul, it's more like $10-12k 150, so the "effective" engine fund is more like $5/hour.

I understand your point that in some cases, if the plane is just a "toy" or something you use every now and then, and you intend to keep it in the long run, it is a slightly depreciating (but not as much as you'd think) asset. But for active use, I don't see it that way.
 
It included brakes, an alternator, an upgraded navcomm, a new mag, new AI etc. Rentals have to pay commercial insurance, which is a big cost item for them. It is VERY difficult as a private owner to fly a C150 and have it cost you $100/hr, unless you fly 10 hours a year (or park it at Signature and use their shop for everything). I flew 60 hours/month.

I bought a plane with almost 0 time engine, had I flown all 1800 hours until TBO, I could've bought 3 engines with just the savings vs. renting. Your engine math doesn't work, because assuming a VERY high end overhaul for O-200, 18000USD, it's only 10/hour for the engine "fund", and the plane does not lose 18000 of it's value if the engine is making metal. A $22k 0-hour 150 is not a $4k 150 if it needs an overhaul, it's more like $10-12k 150, so the "effective" engine fund is more like $5/hour.

I understand your point that in some cases, if the plane is just a "toy" or something you use every now and then, and you intend to keep it in the long run, it is a slightly depreciating (but not as much as you'd think) asset. But for active use, I don't see it that way.

Yeah, insurance is insane for the commerical operators, agreed.

Your math works out well on the smaller aircraft. On some of the larger ones, the engine replacement is a bigger percentage of the value of the overall aircraft.

And no disagreement at all in the "active use" thing. The more they're flown, the better ownership becomes.

I think it's possible in both the rental and the ownership cases to rationalize away some things because they're "uncommon" or whatever, too.

Examples might be aircraft that someone buys with very advanced avionics that work they day they buy them, and then the unit craps out, no warranty. That happens. Plus the usual instrument replacements (not including upgrades) over time, etc.

Have been watching my CFIs fleet and his expenses over a year's time with an interest in how he does things, and an electronic HSI and a Turn Coordinator tacked on $5000 to his operating expenses on the three aircraft in the blink of an eye. Running a small commercial fleet doesn't appear to be for the feint of heart!

Being deeply involved in a typical club, not a school, as a volunteer, is probably the best way to see what costs really are on aircraft, and I did that back in the early 90s... so ownership "stuff that comes up" was less of a shock for me than some folks I've met who had bad ownership experiences. Most of it was their own "not knowing" about stuff that happens.

Example: Went to fly instrument stuff with @jesse years ago in KLNK and a couple days in, the nose strut gives up the ghost and goes flat in the -10F temps. Wasn't "planned" per se, but wasn't expected either. After you've owned for a while you just shrug and get out the checkbook. But that becomes a number on the hourly cost of operation spreadsheet.

I do think you overstate the engine worth thing a tad, though. I wouldn't pay more than $10K for a 150 that was actually making metal. I'm sure someone would, though. I think you'd see most buyers offer $8K and pay $9 depending on the rest of the airframe and installed avionics which is usually nearly nothing on a 150 unless someone shoved an IFR GPS in the panel. "Ain't much airplane there" if the engine is toast. But I do see your point. People often buy "hope" over hard numbers.

And that's the real story on all of this. We all WANT to fly so we'll often let emotions get involved in aircraft purchases or operational costs. Like our co-owner who left this year said, "My heart says stay, my math says no."
 
Example: Went to fly instrument stuff with @jesse years ago in KLNK and a couple days in, the nose strut gives up the ghost and goes flat in the -10F temps. Wasn't "planned" per se, but wasn't expected either. After you've owned for a while you just shrug and get out the checkbook. But that becomes a number on the hourly cost of operation spreadsheet.

I do think you overstate the engine worth thing a tad, though. I wouldn't pay more than $10K for a 150 that was actually making metal. I'm sure someone would, though. I think you'd see most buyers offer $8K and pay $9 depending on the rest of the airframe and installed avionics which is usually nearly nothing on a 150 unless someone shoved an IFR GPS in the panel. "Ain't much airplane there" if the engine is toast. But I do see your point. People often buy "hope" over hard numbers.

I had a $12k "zero engine" value for my 150 in my "books" (books = my risk/reward calculations to see if I can live with the worst case scenario of ownership), but it had pretty nice paint and an OK(for a 150) /G panel and a bunch of good upgrades. Most 150's in the market are junk and I wouldn't pay $12k WITH an engine for them :) I thought I was pretty realistic with my valuation (which is why it sold in a week and I got like 50 emails/phone calls for it). On a simple plane like a single-engine Cessna these numbers can easily work for your favor, anything more exotic and you can be badly upside down.

To fly just for fun, a simple plane with decent usage will almost without an exception be cheaper than renting in the long run. Owning an exotic plane and having low utilization is where people burn themselves. Now, if you fly 75-100hrs/year, compare that cost to renting for 75-100 hours (and be realistic, Hobbs vs. Tach, minimum daily hours for your missions etc), and that's when you see if you really own a depreciating asset or if it works out financially for you.
And obviously - your ownership experience will be as good as your mechanic is. A crap mechanic (and there are MANY of them) will ruin the life of any plane owner.
 
I had a $12k "zero engine" value for my 150 in my "books" (books = my risk/reward calculations to see if I can live with the worst case scenario of ownership), but it had pretty nice paint and an OK(for a 150) /G panel and a bunch of good upgrades. Most 150's in the market are junk and I wouldn't pay $12k WITH an engine for them :) I thought I was pretty realistic with my valuation (which is why it sold in a week and I got like 50 emails/phone calls for it). On a simple plane like a single-engine Cessna these numbers can easily work for your favor, anything more exotic and you can be badly upside down.

To fly just for fun, a simple plane with decent usage will almost without an exception be cheaper than renting in the long run. Owning an exotic plane and having low utilization is where people burn themselves. Now, if you fly 75-100hrs/year, compare that cost to renting for 75-100 hours (and be realistic, Hobbs vs. Tach, minimum daily hours for your missions etc), and that's when you see if you really own a depreciating asset or if it works out financially for you.
And obviously - your ownership experience will be as good as your mechanic is. A crap mechanic (and there are MANY of them) will ruin the life of any plane owner.

It also depends on the motivations of the owners who are renting in the area. There's a couple of nice but not perfect aircraft here that once you've owned one, you realize they're renting them out at cost or in a bad year, even below cost.

Of course then you wonder if they're doing proper maintenance, or if the owner is an A&P and just wants his long term bills on it offset a bit for when he wants to fly it.

In particular there's a 182 here that rents for almost identical numbers to our long term operating costs. No way that owner is making a profit. But maybe he doesn't want a profit. There's legitimate (usually tax) reasons not to show one or even take a loss.
 
It also depends on the motivations of the owners who are renting in the area. There's a couple of nice but not perfect aircraft here that once you've owned one, you realize they're renting them out at cost or in a bad year, even below cost.

Of course then you wonder if they're doing proper maintenance, or if the owner is an A&P and just wants his long term bills on it offset a bit for when he wants to fly it.

In particular there's a 182 here that rents for almost identical numbers to our long term operating costs. No way that owner is making a profit. But maybe he doesn't want a profit. There's legitimate (usually tax) reasons not to show one or even take a loss.

I've rented a Cherokee Six in California for $140 per hour. It was the worst POS I've ever flown (and it is downright lethal if flown IMC. I have a funny video of flying the plane straight and level, AI showing a 30deg left bank, and TC showing half rate turn to the right, and ASI is 20-25mph low all the time). I know that price was definitely hammered down by skipping on maintenance.
ATL is darn expensive for plane rentals unfortunately, haven't found good deals yet :/
 
To the OP, it makes perfect business sense for a bank to not lend on a runout engine.

The value of most of these planes without an engines is likely calculated by the pound, at prevailing prices for aluminum at the local recycling facility. That is just a harsh reality.

That being said, it likely depends on how many $$$ you want to borrow. 10 cents on the dollar, maybe a lender out there. 80 cents? Naahhh


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