Nevada, California, New Mexico and Utah flying trip - Sept 2016

Eagle 2000

Eagle 2000

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Gerrards Cross, UK
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Eagle 2000
Along with a few other British pilots we are planning a 9 day VFR trip out of Las Vegas this summer, from 5th to 13th September. We will be four aircraft, renting 172s and a 182RG, and have a rough outline of a route planned.

Day 1 - North Las Vegas - Hoover Dam - Bryce Canyon - Monument Valley
Day 2 - Monument Valley - KGCN Grand Canyon - Sedona
Day 3 - Sedona - Albuquerque - El Paso
Day 4 - El Paso - Tucson - Phoenix
Day 5 - Phoenix - San Diego - Catalina Island
Day 6 - Catalina - San Luis Obispo - Monterey - Golden Gate - Napa County - Lake Tahoe (or Minden)
Day 7 - Monterey - Golden Gate - Napa County - Lake Tahoe (or Minden)
Day 8 and 9 - Lake Tahoe back to Vegas, not sure of optimum route or places to stop

I'd be very grateful for any input or feedback into the plan - feel free to change the routing or stopover points.

Thanks!
 
You might try to swing a stop at Valle (40G). It is just south of GCN and home to the Planes if Fame's AZ museum.
 
Pop into Death Valley on your way back to Vegas from Tahoe.
 
Going that way this spring,post the route you take,if you would Thanks.
 
I'd go to Santa Fe instead of Albuquerque, then on to Tucson, unless you have a good reason to go to El Paso.

If you're able to cross the Sierras, the best route from Tahoe to Vegas is to the Coaldale VOR, then V105 to Vegas.

Sounds like a fun trip!
 
Nice itinerary. In Monument Valley are you overnighting at UT25? It has an interesting runway with a large cliff at the south end. At some point you must commit to landing since a go-around may not be feasible. I think you need to provide a signed waiver to get permission to land.

KGCN may have high prices that may not be justified if you are only landing to refuel. Nothing scenic about that airport either. I second the recommendation for Valle. Or, since you are coming from Monument Valley you may need to refuel in Page AZ, from there, you can fly non-stop to Sedona via one of the corridors over the Grand Canyon.

I would usually recommend Death Valley but if you are going in the Summer it may be too hot to be enjoyable.
 
SoCalPilot88 said:
I would usually recommend Death Valley but if you are going in the Summer it may be too hot to be enjoyable.
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I was there one July. Landed at about 11am, temp was about 115°F Wasn't that bad really. Took a couple pics, and departed for Lake Havasu. When I landed there it was 122°F
 
Thanks for all the feedback so far. Really useful. Please keep it coming.

Yes the plan is to overnight at UT25, we will need to check that the renter will allow it.

We're considering reversing the route to leave most of the desert flying till the end. We don't want to be stuck in Tahoe, having to get the planes back to Vegas the next day and our flights to London booked the following day.
 
Good idea to reverse the trip. In the summer, you may have morning IFR conditions along the coast (often further inland as well). Like clockwork, it usually burns off late morning/early afternoon.

By July there is monsoonal thunderstorm activity in the Arizona region. Like clockwork, it usually starts in the afternoon. Unless it is unusually intense, you can simply restrict flying to earlier parts of the day and be unhindered.
 
That's a very aggressive schedule especially with 4 planes going. Make sure you have a plan B, C, D... Some pretty high terrain for summertime in a 172. Go early and keep it light.
 
Read up on Mountain Flying. Inquire locally. Beware of winds aloft greater than 25 Knots in the mountains. Thats a lot of flying in 9 days. You are going to get a wonderful view of the geology of the Western US.
 
EdFred said:
Pop into Death Valley on your way back to Vegas from Tahoe.
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Ed, that's TERRIBLE advice.

Early September, it's going to be hotter than hell there.

Europeans often have trouble understanding just how hot. It's one of the hottest places in the world, and can exceed 50 C. In September, it's likely in the 40s. That's hot enough to make vapor lock on the ground life threatening.

Winter only. In February, it's just warm. It's hot in spring and fall. It's you-gotta-be-kidding-me hot in summer.

Honestly, it looks like thousands of other dry lakes around the region, some of which are at much higher (and more reasonable) altitudes. Vegas and Phoenix are going to be very hot as well, but not quite on the same scale, and not nearly so remotely.
 
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I was there when it was 115 before noon. It was a non issue. Even at 115 it was more comfortable there than it is here in July and August when it gets in the 90's. I'd do it again under the same conditions.

If they on on the east side of the Sierra's they are already going to be in blazing hot weather anyway,
 
MAKG1 said:
Ed, that's TERRIBLE advice.
Winter only. In February, it's just warm.
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Problem with that is you're dealing with short days. It gets dark around 5-ish in winter. And yes, it can get cold in winter there too.
 
EdFred said:
I was there when it was 115 before noon. It was a non issue. Even at 115 it was more comfortable there than it is here in July and August when it gets in the 90's. I'd do it again under the same conditions.

If they on on the east side of the Sierra's they are already going to be in blazing hot weather anyway,
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Having spent a lot of time in Nevada over the years, it's not in the same ballpark. Sure, it can get up to 95 around Carson City in summer. Maybe 100 during a heat wave. It makes a lot of difference if you're at 5000 feet instead of -100.

115 is fine if nothing goes wrong and it's for short periods of time. If you get stuck, it's a serious situation. Every few years, someone out there dies because their car breaks down.

And there is A LOT of difference between 115 and 125. The record there is 137.

It may not "feel" as hot, because your sweat dries immediately. When you overwhelm your sweat production, say, because you didn't bring the water you need to survive, you are in a heap of trouble. This is not a comfort issue. People die doing things like what you suggest.
 
I wonder why they call it "Death" Valley? ;)
 
One thing I noticed was you have a group of pretty tired pilots doing a landing at Catalina late afternoon the way the schedule is set up.

Locals usually recommend being on your toes a bit going out there, both since there is an overwater section you probably won't be high enough to glide to land for a few minutes, and because the runway has a slope and essentially ends at a cliff.

Just keep fatigue in mind on that leg, is all I'm saying.

Might look over the other stops and think if any are more difficult than average and what time of day they'll be tackled, too.
 
I would not plan more than two 3 to 3.5 hour legs per day. Otherwise you'll feel rushed.
The RG can takeoff last and land first.

Who are you renting the planes from?
I fly out of VGT and have flown in most of those areas.
 
MAKG1 said:
Having spent a lot of time in Nevada over the years, it's not in the same ballpark. Sure, it can get up to 95 around Carson City in summer. Maybe 100 during a heat wave. It makes a lot of difference if you're at 5000 feet instead of -100.

115 is fine if nothing goes wrong and it's for short periods of time. If you get stuck, it's a serious situation. Every few years, someone out there dies because their car breaks down.

And there is A LOT of difference between 115 and 125. The record there is 137.

It may not "feel" as hot, because your sweat dries immediately. When you overwhelm your sweat production, say, because you didn't bring the water you need to survive, you are in a heap of trouble. This is not a comfort issue. People die doing things like what you suggest.
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I had 10+ gallons of water in the plane. I carried enough provisions to last for over a week before I needed to go into 'survival mode'. As I said I'd do it again.
 
Once again thanks for the comments and discussion, keep them coming. All advice is being well noted and we will revise and adapt our route based on all your feedback. Local advice is so useful to us.
 
EdFred said:
I had 10+ gallons of water in the plane. I carried enough provisions to last for over a week before I needed to go into 'survival mode'. As I said I'd do it again.
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And yet you just told someone else to go there, with none of the warnings.

You need more than food and water. Shelter is critical, well before a week. And a cell phone signal isn't likely. If you went alone, you had no possible recovery from heat exhaustion. It will disorient you.

I see Europeans screw up trips there every summer. Fortunately, none have died from it, but they haven't enjoyed it either. And most of these guys work in the desert. Just, it's the high desert, not the same league.
 
I had an encampment packed the back of my plane. Tent, tarps, rope, twine, gear, sleeping bag, basically enough to live for over a week. Not survive, live. Even if you have no cell service you've got a means of signaling there's an issue. And this is a flight of 4 planes, the chances of all 4 catastrophically failing to start is pretty small. Only one needs to get up and out to get on 121.5.

Overall picture. It's something to look at.
 
Eagle 2000 said:
Does anyone know if you can fly VFR overhead San Francisco International?
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Not quite, but generally so close to it, you won't care. The usual clearance is to stay on the other side of US101. The thresholds for 1L and 1R are right next to it.

You can pass over at 1500 or 3500. At the lower altitude, you need to talk to Tower rather than Approach, and you'll probably get a climb to 2000 passing the airport (nice for terrain clearance over Mt. San Bruno). Use the higher altitude if there is significant wind or you'll get your teeth knocked out.

A trick is, if Tower says no, climb up to 3500 outside Class B and ask NorCal. The answer is often different.
 
I don't know how much you are planning to put in each 172, but density altitude is going to be a challenge it you've never flown at higher elevations with high temperatures. Albuquerque is over 5,000' msl, Santa Fe and Tahoe are over 6,000' msl. Those planes aren't going to perform like they do at sea level. Late afternoon departures on hot days will take a LOT of runway. Thermals can also make for rough flying in the afternoons. As others have suggested, it would be good to have both an aggressive schedule and one that is more laid back with less afternoon flying, just in case the afternoon thunderstorms and strong thermals make flying unpleasantunpleasant, or unsafe. This is a vacation afterall. I lived in Albuquerque for 8 years and when the flying is good in the mountain West, it is spectacular. When the flying is bad, it is very bad.
 
Your comments and advice noted, Flyhound. This feels like a trip for early starts and morning flights, we will definitely review the itinerary closer to the date.
 
Eagle 2000 said:
Your comments and advice noted, Flyhound. This feels like a trip for early starts and morning flights, we will definitely review the itinerary closer to the date.
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Near the coast the opposite could be true. Since you said you were VFR, you might need afternoon departures/arrivals to deal with the morning stratus. Going from desert to coast is easier than the other way around.
 
SFO transition will be along highway 101 at 1500ft (or higher) as outlined by another poster. Here's a video of what that looks like:
(40 second mark). Turn the music down if you're not a fan. You'll then get handed to norcal approach (135.10 if memory serves), the same sector which handles the departures out of SFO (and possibly Oakland). Head over Sutro tower towards Golden Gate bridge, then you'll be out of the Bravo in no time and can start your climb enroute.

If you can fit it in, I highly recommend continuing north to Shelter Cove (0Q5), it's a unique little spot (no fuel, but there is food nearby, albeit not great food). On the way there, or the way back down, fly by the Buddhist template charted at STS R-272, 24dme (just NW of FROSH waypoint). Pic of the temple: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/3331279.jpg

Also recommend staying the night at Healdsburg (KHES) in the wine country. It's a lovely little town. Wife and I stayed there for an anniversary at the Healdsburg Inn (http://www.healdsburginn.com), it's smack in the middle of the plaza, it's hard not to have a good time there.

An idea could be SFO transition to Healdsburg, stay the night, then for next day, head NW to the temple, continue to Shelter Cove, check out the beach there (it's a unique place, google "shelter cove beach" and click the images), grab quick lunch, then head east towards H37, then straight shot south to Tahoe. I recently flew 0Q5 to KEKO and can tell you the terrain and scenery near H37 is like being on another planet. Just a thought!
 
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Getting VFR weather at Shelter Cove may not be possible in the summer.

Also, if he flies along 101 at 1500 feet, he's likely to get handed off to SJC, NUQ, PAO, SQL, and SFO towers along the way.
 
What's there to see or do in Chino? (I'm not saying there isn't; just wondering in case I might want to go there.)
 
Im not a big fan of El Paso, but if your bent on going near there, the Santa Theresa airport is very close, just across the state line in NM, hotels near by, and there is a fantastic museum right on the field, the War Eagles Flight Museum. http://www.airnav.com/airport/5T6 And if you end up at Ryan Field outside of Tucson, say hello.
 
We did most of your destinations during a winter vacation several years ago. Be prepared for high density departures especially in the Las Vegas, Phoenix, Monument Valley, Gran Canyon, Lake Tahoe... area if you go there in September. We had a 172 and were just two person on a day trip when we departed at the Gran Canyon Airport where it took the 172 'forever' to take off... Also, be ready to entirely change your route and adjust it for weather and wind (El Paso!).

If you want to land below sea level and cannot go to Death Valley, you could fly into Jacqueline Cochran Regional Airport (KTRM) close to Palm Springs. That would be a detour for your current travel plans. Death Valley was definitely cool though as it was quite warm (remember: winter!) and there was water in the lake. :)

On your way north after starting in Catalina, you could ask for the Mini-Route over LAX. The route goes directly over LAX and you have a nice view to Downtown Los Angeles and you can see the Hollywood-sign. :) There are more VFR routes around Los Angeles that are worth looking at.

You also may want to consider Half Moon Bay (KHAF) as at stop before flying over the Golden Gate Bridge and get your GoPros ready... :cool::cool: KHAF is known for fog though... There is a restaurant directly at the gas pump or, if you want to go in one of the many restaurants in the harbor area, park on the south end of the airport and walk there.

In the end it really depends on how many hours you want to spend in the plane each day and how much time you want to spend at various locations. You may also want to consider - depending on weather, if you focus on certain areas instead trying to fit everything into your tour. Why are for example El Paso and Tuscon in your plan. While both cities are interesting, you will fly over extend desert areas with little change in views for hours.

When planning your route, have a close look at the estimated time en route and be generous when you add time for sight seeing or gas stopps. :rolleyes:;):cool: Good thing about you going in September is that you will have long days = early sunrise / late sunsets. That will help you to fit your plans into each day.

Looking forward to your report and pictures!
 
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