Negotiating repairs with seller after prebuy

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Blueangel

Line Up and Wait
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Scott
So my results came back with 12 pages of major squawks found by the Beech shop for a pre buy inspection. Seller will not drop price. How do I negotiate repairs to have seller represented by a large broker to fix these items? Broker will not fix engine issues. Should I run away from buying this plane? A lot of maintenance was deferred according to the shop. Broker represented plane as being hangared and well maintained but results of the prebuy inspection came back as the complete opposite!
 
Blueangel said:
So my results came back with 12 pages of major squawks found by the Beech shop for a pre buy inspection. Seller will not drop price. How do I negotiate repairs to have seller represented by a large broker to fix these items? Broker will not fix engine issues. Should I run away from buying this plane? A lot of maintenance was deferred according to the shop. Broker represented plane as being hangared and well maintained but results of the prebuy inspection came back as the complete opposite!
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Quote.
These discrepancies must be repaired prior to my buying the aircraft.

When they say no. tell them to have a nice day.
 
Ask. If no deal, then no deal. Try to split the costs, or things that are major split the costs and you do the minor and cosmetic stuff. Since you haven't shared the contract terms and conditions, who knows?

Everything is negotiable. The seller is selling and you are buying. If you don't like it walk. Then, send me the plane info so I can go get it. ;)
 
12 pages of MAJOR squawks?? Id run.
I wouldn't nickel and dime it but if there are 12 pages of truly major ones then is the plane airworthy? Otherwise id go after airworthy issues and fix the other stuff a little at a time.

Otherwise like Tom said. if they don't budge move on. Plenty of other planes out there.
 
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If the seller won't budge, move on. I know you've burned some cash, but airplane shopping is expensive. Consider it a small investment preventing you from burning a lot more.
 
Using a broker was where you first went wrong. Tell him to take the repairs out of his commission. That should go over well. :lol:
 
If the squeaks are that bad,and the seller doesn't want to negotiate,time to find another aircraft.
 
This is why I always offer full price for a sqwak free airplane. Once the inspection is done then the seller can fix it or find another buyer. It becomes his problem
 
Blueangel said:
So my results came back with 12 pages of major squawks found by the Beech shop for a pre buy inspection. Seller will not drop price. How do I negotiate repairs to have seller represented by a large broker to fix these items? Broker will not fix engine issues. Should I run away from buying this plane? A lot of maintenance was deferred according to the shop. Broker represented plane as being hangared and well maintained but results of the prebuy inspection came back as the complete opposite!
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Do the math.
Normally the seller takes care of airworthiness squawks. Airworthiness means airworthiness.......... not capable of being signed off by the A/P IA.
All "discretionary" squawks can be negotiated but as a seller I wouldn't pay for them.

You don't say, but an acceptable price must have been discussed before you had the pre-buy and with a broker there is a contract. What does the contract say about squawks?

Is it still a good deal for you with the known squawks at the purchase price?

This should be a simple decision for you.
 
Repairs should always be negotiated before the pre-buy. For instance, if the seller presents the aircraft as airworthy, that means no outstanding AD's, and nothing that needs repaired before the next flight. If your pre-buy turns up discrepancies in those areas, the contract should require the seller to fix them.

If the seller presents the airplane as "Everything is 100% perfect" and a headphone jack is inop, the contract needs to require the seller to fix the jacks.

Much easier to negotiate these things before you're out an AMU on a prebuy.
 
There isn't a knowledgeable person on this board let alone any mechanic that can't find discrepancies on all aircraft.

So you tire kickers beware of the seller that says the aircraft is, what it is, where it is, at this price.

Then all you can do is to inspect the aircraft and see if it is worth the asking price.
 
tlrussell said:
This is why I always offer full price for a sqwak free airplane. Once the inspection is done then the seller can fix it or find another buyer. It becomes his problem
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Mine came with a "fresh annual" so any airworthiness issues that came up were not negotiable. They should have been caught in annual and weren't so the seller paid. We discussed that ahead of rime. One of the things you have to figure out is what it is worth? What is it worth to you? Find your walk away point and stick to it. Any plane will have squawks, but, as frustrating as it may be, don't assume just because you have so much time, money, emotions, etc wrapped up in it you can't walk. Good luck!
 
Personally i would run. I did pre-buys on two planes I walkwd from. Cost a few bones but saved alot more down the road.
 
There is no earthly way we can reasonably comment in a helpful way to the OP without knowing both the advertised price, the full specs on the aircraft, and the nature of the squawks.

Telling him to 'run away' is rubbish if the airplane is being sold for a very low price. The ask price may have already been set to accommodate for the airplane being imperfect.

Let's say the asking price for this airplane, say it's a Bonanza, is $10K.
Does that change your advice to Mr. Buyer? You can cover a lot of major squawks at that price. And we still don't know what the 'major' squawks are. Is a seat torn? Is there low compression on one jug?

Frankly, when/if I ever sell mine I am going to research to identify where the market is for an airplane of mine's age and condition and tell anyone they can look at it, but I have already factored into the price any deficiencies known and unknown. So we might negotiate on the price - but keep your list of squawks and complaints/insults about the airplane to yourself; it sounds like this airplane doesn't interest you.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
There is no earthly way we can reasonably comment in a helpful way to the OP without knowing both the advertised price, the full specs on the aircraft, and the nature of the squawks. :yes:

Telling him to 'run away' is rubbish if the airplane is being sold for a very low price. The ask price may have already been set to accommodate for the airplane being imperfect.

Let's say the asking price for this airplane, say it's a Bonanza, is $10K.
Does that change your advice to Mr. Buyer? You can cover a lot of major squawks at that price. And we still don't know what the 'major' squawks are. Is a seat torn? Is there low compression on one jug?

Frankly, when/if I ever sell mine I am going to research to identify where the market is for an airplane of mine's age and condition and tell anyone they can look at it, but I have already factored into the price any deficiencies known and unknown. So we might negotiate on the price - but keep your list of squawks and complaints/insults about the airplane to yourself; it sounds like this airplane doesn't interest you.
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Yep. Just like buying sight unseen makes no sense, making some of the definitive statements posted here without full knowledge of the situation makes no sense.
 
Airplane is a 1960 Beechcraft Debonair with 6000 total time 1400 SMOH 800 SPOH
Sale price firm at 37K from broker and seller

The squawks are engine gaskets and oil leaks, landing gear and lot of deferred maintenance. I'm waiting to see what seller will offer to fix. They agreed on airworthy items from my conversation and per contract.
 
Discrepancies should each be identified by the shop as airworthiness items, or not.

I asked my seller to pay for the Airworthiness items, such as a leaking gascolator, an out-of-date ELT battery, and even the worn-out mufflers, but nothing that wasn't designated as Airworthiness. That seemed fair to both me and the buyer.
 
Blueangel said:
The squawks are engine gaskets and oil leaks, landing gear and lot of deferred maintenance. I'm waiting to see what seller will offer to fix. They agreed on airworthy items from my conversation and per contract.
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It sounds as if you are buying not just a plane, but also a lot of deferred maintenance. If the seller won't budge on the non-airworthiness items, I would just have to figure on the cost of those items as being part of my total initial cost, and either buy or walk away according to whether I liked that total cost.
 
Yeah if seller refuses to pay to fix airworthiness items
then I'll walk away and find better one
even paying more worth it.
 
Blueangel said:
Airplane is a 1960 Beechcraft Debonair with 6000 total time 1400 SMOH 800 SPOH
Sale price firm at 37K from broker and seller

The squawks are engine gaskets and oil leaks, landing gear and lot of deferred maintenance. I'm waiting to see what seller will offer to fix. They agreed on airworthy items from my conversation and per contract.
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Decide which of these you will really fix if you buy the airplane. They will cost you X. Now your price is 37K + X. Will you pay that price? Does the seller expect you to pay that price or will he come down to something you will pay? The sell has two levers, fix these things himself or knock it off the sales price to get to down to something acceptable to you.

If not move along.

It's the same thing in house buying. When the foundation is crooked, the kitchen is from the 70s, the previous owner smoked and the roof shingles are worn out, the house isn't worth the "market" price no matter how cherry the seller believes it is.
 
$37K seems like a sweet deal for a 60's vintage Deb. Haven't done that much market research, but I sold my Cherokee for not much south of that. Might be worth dealing with a few squawks.
 
steingar said:
$37K seems like a sweet deal for a 60's vintage Deb. Haven't done that much market research, but I sold my Cherokee for not much south of that. Might be worth dealing with a few squawks.
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I tend to agree. If the price recognized that there was quite a bit of deferred maintenance it might still be a fair price. You can always walk, that is your "leverage."
 
Be careful with this one. I had the same situation with an aircraft I took to pre-buy before purchasing the one I own now.

Have you put a deposit down on the plane as a condition of the purchase agreement? Does the contract state that you have the right to walk away if the owner does not address the non-airworthy items or only the items that would be required to make the plane "airworthy"? Was there any conditional language based on the findings of the pre-buy that would give you an "out" without being on the hook for any fees?

Brokers are notorious for locking people in on even the smallest detail. I lost about 2K between the pre-buy, and ferry fees for the one I ended up walking away from. Which was a bargain considering the plane had crappy paint to begin with and over 10K of open issues which ranged from corrosion on the engine mounts to placards being missing.
 
Isn't 12 pages of squawks on 60s Beech normal for an inspector with a fresh eye exam, clean glasses and a flashlight that works?
 
Deposit is refundable if I do not buy the plane. I am still out the 1K for the pre-buy inspection but considering it will take some $$$ to make airworthy and safe, walking away may be the best option if the seller refuses to fix airworthy items or discount price. I would rather lose the 1K on a failed pre buy then end up with a pile of MX nightmares. I have a friend who went through this with a Bonanza and spent 30K to fix it over couple years. He ended up getting rid of the plane as it was nickel and diming him to death.

Anyways, on the Debbie- when I checked VREF for the plane it was 34-35K without major squawks. I can only imagine it really being worth more like 25K if it requires 10K in repairs to bring it up to acceptable level but I am awaiting for the shop to send me the list of repairs and cost for labor and parts. It has a ton of landing gear issues, paint is ok but will need a new paint job eventually and some other stuff needing repair like cabin door hinges and new engine gaskets to fix the oil leaks. The fuel vent tube is even missing!

The engine compressions at least are ok per the borescope and leak down test.

I looked at another Debbie that needed a new elevator skin which would cost 8K to fix and the seller wanted 40K for that plane. Walked away from that after speaking to the A&P who knew the plane well.

Now I do see a super nice S35 Bonanza in great shape for 75K that I looked at a while back still for sale. Originally the seller wanted 95K about five months ago but it did not sell. So that is a good candidate if the current Debbie does not go through.

-Scott
 
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Gear issues don't surprise me :rofl:. Lotta stuff there to corrode and wear out.


I've even seen wheels where you could poke through the bead seat area using a pick the corrosion was so bad.
 
Actually, the gear on the Bo/Deb is about as robust as you can find. If it's got so many problems, pretty sure it's had a collapse at one time in the past. That can bend, and wear things pretty quick. It should be well lubed each annual and some pilots don't like grease on the gear so they avoid lubing it. Common mistake. The bushings in the scissor wear if the plane is used with an out of round tire, or lots of unimproved runways. If it has strut leaks, that's pretty expensive if you need a new strut. If it just needs rebuild and the strut is ok, it's time consuming but not too costly.

A very good cond Deb with decent but not top of the line radios should sell for around $50k or a bit more. Technically, your engine is 100 hours from runout which is why the price is low, but that engine will go way over 1500 hours with jug replacement every once in a while.

Consider this is a good candidate for refurbishment if there is no corrosion in the tail code, or under the baggage floor. You can invest in it now, and budget money to bring it up to your standards in the next 3-6 years. Engine oil leaks are fairly common on the E series and come up on the IO-470 too. That's not airworthy unless it's pouring out.

As for the gear, well - one man's bush plane is another man's college fund if you find the right A&P. Even with plenty of wear on gear stuff, it still will go up and down reliably.
 
IMHO, you're going to need to provide more details about the nature and extent of the squawks before you're going to get a thorough response. Phrases like "lots of deferred maintenance" are meaningless without more detail. "Deferred maintenance" is going to mean different things to different people. Same thing with "lots of landing gear issues." What issues exactly? Is it just mis-rigged, or are parts broken? Are the oil leaks true "leaks" or is it just seeping? Are the door hinges broken, or does the A&P just think they should be replaced at some point in the future because they're showing some wear?
 
There was surface corrosion found in the inner gear well for the main spar that needs to be fixed and right flap has a crack most likely pax didn't step on correct place getting in or out of the plane. Nose gear bushings worn and many landing gear screws loose and things too many to list need repair or replacing. I'll see the total cost from the shop before deciding what to do. If seller agrees to fix these items minus the engine overhaul then I will buy it. Otherwise will keep looking for a better maintained aircraft.
 
Forgot to mention springs corroded on landing gear, bushings, incorrect torque settings for landing gear. It is a 12 page report.
 
steingar said:
$37K seems like a sweet deal for a 60's vintage Deb. Haven't done that much market research, but I sold my Cherokee for not much south of that. Might be worth dealing with a few squawks.
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Actually VRef puts the value at 28k, largely due to the 1400 SOH/1500 TBO engine. Take VRef for what it is, but also remember that the engine is 100 hours from TBO.

I see a lot of Debs for sale at what I think are really, really high prices. A 50 year old "classic" at the same price for 15 year old SR20 or a 10 year old DA40? Guess it's the same thing that puts true Cubs up there...
 
Blueangel said:
There was surface corrosion found in the inner gear well for the main spar that needs to be fixed and right flap has a crack most likely pax didn't step on correct place getting in or out of the plane. Nose gear bushings worn and many landing gear screws loose and things too many to list need repair or replacing. I'll see the total cost from the shop before deciding what to do. If seller agrees to fix these items minus the engine overhaul then I will buy it. Otherwise will keep looking for a better maintained aircraft.
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Blueangel said:
Forgot to mention springs corroded on landing gear, bushings, incorrect torque settings for landing gear. It is a 12 page report.
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This is all normal stuff on the Bo gear. Like I said, robust so they don't get the love too often. The retract rod bushings are also shot, so are the steering rod bushing. The two nose gear well boots are perished as well. Rusty springs are common for planes that land on grass or operate out of rainy places.

The strut tubes are the costly bits. The rest of it is just catch-up mx, and not really airworthy unless the IA is anal retentive.
 
Will see what the A&P quotes me for repairs and then decide. If seller pays for the repairs then I will buy. Otherwise walk away.
 
You need to first determine the estimated value of the aircraft WITH the squawks.

Or alternately, get an estimate of the aircraft under normal, optimum condition. Then Deduct for the cost of repairs to your satisfaction.

I bought a near basket case with the intent of restoring it to airworthy condition. Got a sweet deal especially when the gear wouldnt extend when he planed to show it to me. The belly had lots of 5606 on it too. I got another 10k$ off the asking price and now have a very sweet bird. All it needed were actuator O-rings and some new hoses.

Its not who you know- its what you know. :)
 
Plane needs at least 10-15K in repairs to be air worthy and seller only wants to discount price by 2k so I'm going to walk away from this bad deal. I'd rather spend 65-70k for a well maintained plane. This one needs too much TLC and I'm neither a mechanic nor do I have a shop.
 
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