Need some advice, Piper Wing Walk AD

L

lucasfransen

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Jul 27, 2023
Messages
3
Display Name
Display name:
Lucas Fransen
Hi I am 17 and bought an airplane with some money I saved up, and got a Piper Challenger 180 (PA-28). Bought it back in March after I had a prebuy done on it and said it was free of cracks and corrosion on the wing spar and other places. Couple that with it have a a 0 time engine I bought the plane. Starting doing my training and was about ready for check ride, then my annual came… they found cracks in the wing walk area, and the breaks basically shot. Stuff I told this guy on the prebuy to check this stuff, and i’m pretty upset. Anyways here’s some photos of the cracks, so any of you owner or ames have any tips maybe to where they don’t have to remove the wing to get to the forward and aft panels? Really sucks because you know 17 years old can’t come up with 18k very quickly . But I guess that what I get for expecting aircraft ownership to be economically. Definitely learning a lot though, anyways just shoot me all your guys tips and tricks, I am a first gen pilot in my fam and more info the better.
 

Attachments

  • 0615E722-BA7B-44CC-A44F-961A6A175A60.jpeg
    0615E722-BA7B-44CC-A44F-961A6A175A60.jpeg
    833.6 KB · Views: 146
  • A10DE8D3-5F00-4955-B221-076D7281E8CB.jpeg
    A10DE8D3-5F00-4955-B221-076D7281E8CB.jpeg
    654.7 KB · Views: 141
Last edited:
where are the cracks?
 
Step 1, verify the observed cracks are truly cracks.

Brakes? Well, they wear out.

You would do well to study preventative maintenance section of part 43 and get your own aircraft maintenance manual and fix stuff yourself, like brakes, tires, oil changes etc.
 
We had an A&P put a piece of metal in there as a doubler to fix our creaky/cracking wing walk. I think it was only 2 or 3 AMUs. They did it through the inspection port for the wingspar stuff.. no wing removal necessary.

It was also our A&Ps opinion that deferring a fix wasn't really a big deal..
 
I don’t see any cracks in the photos but perhaps they’re there and need to be pointed out. The walkway area of the wing can be replaced without wing removal if it turns out that there are cracks.

As far as brakes go, they wear out. It is unlikely that the consumable brake parts will be a significant cost in the scheme of ownership.
 
This is a true crack in a wing walk panel!
 

Attachments

  • 20220901_143420.jpg
    20220901_143420.jpg
    1.6 MB · Views: 68
i dont see anything that i think is a crack. couple of bucking bar scruff marks. the crack usually start in the radius of the bump. i see a couple of poorly driven rivets, but no cracks,
 
I’m sure there have been many aircraft with cracks In this area.

Think $$$$. I wonder If anyone has ever contacted a DER to formulate a

repair that did not require wing removal? Use of a Structural Epoxy might

be a good application here.
 
The AD is not related to the wing walk. Cracks there are pretty typical. It should still be airworthy. That’s a key word in talking with the mechanic.
based on the pictures, I’d do the brakes and keep an eye on the wing walk.
 
lucasfransen said:
Hi I am 17 and bought an airplane with some money I saved up, and got a Piper Challenger 180 (PA-28). Bought it back in March after I had a prebuy done on it and said it was free of cracks and corrosion on the wing spar and other places. Couple that with it have a a 0 time engine I bought the plane. Starting doing my training and was about ready for check ride, then my annual came… they found cracks in the wing walk area, and the breaks basically shot. Stuff I told this guy on the prebuy to check this stuff, and i’m pretty upset. Anyways here’s some photos of the cracks, so any of you owner or ames have any tips maybe to where they don’t have to remove the wing to get to the forward and aft panels? Really sucks because you know 17 years old can’t come up with 18k very quickly . But I guess that what I get for expecting aircraft ownership to be economically. Definitely learning a lot though, anyways just shoot me all your guys tips and tricks, I am a first gen pilot in my fam and more info the better.
Click to expand...
yeah I don't see any cracks. And if I recall, I don't think this would be an airworthiness thing. Does it "oil can" crack when you step on it? The repair shouldn't be 18k. I was looking at a arrow a few years ago that needed that and I think the quote at that time was $5-8k.
 

Note the wing was NOT removed.
 
You can replace brake pads yourself. Everything you need, including a rivet press, is available from Aircraft Spruce.
 
Just what is the “ AD” that some folks are talking about here?

Airworthiness Directives have very specific methods of inspecting the area

of concern. Visual, 10x glass , dye penetrant, ultrasound etc are called out

in the AD. There may be Repair Tolerances and Frequency of Inspection

specified in the document also. The AD may refer to a Mfg Service Bulletin

but the afore mentioned Methods and Frequency will often be different.


The pix from OP do not appear to show cracks . #6 does show real cracks.

I have some skins here that have multiple cracks which seems the norm

with these. IIRC Piper wings are not constructed symmetrical. The Left

Wing has some skins that are thinner than the Right Wing. It would become

a major concern if the outer skin actually displayed cracking. Removing the

wing for a possible crack or an indication that it may crack in the future is

not warranted. Note that is in this area only.

IMHO the OP should NOT AUTHORIZE the Inspecting Agency to make the

repair. Suggested course of events:

1. Have the IA or Repair Station complete the Annual Inspection and furnish

a list of all discrepancies with an approximate cost to address each.

2. The facility can make the appropriate Record Entries for work

accomplished. This is essentially saying the aircraft is Airworthy except

for the items noted.

3. At this point any properly certificated person can address the listed

discrepancies and the aircraft is then Airworthy. OP can have anyone he

chooses do this. It does not mean the repair has to be done in a manner

specified the folks that did the initial inspection.


Terms such as “ as per “ and “I/a/w” are often used in aircraft

maintenance. What is the Inspecting Agency using for guidance in

conducting the inspection and the projected repair? I know of no

Airworthiness Directive that mandates the inspection as is being conducted.

A DER can deter other repair strategies or determine there is no action

needed at this time. Cessna Manuals are much more detailed in detailing

things like allowable and repairable damage. Piper is sorely lacking

in this department.

Removing and reinstalling a Cherokee wing is not a task to be taken lightly.

A AD circa ‘80’s that specified wing removal was rescinded as the process

was determined to be likely to cause more significant damage.
 
Last edited:
FFDB25E6-90D4-465B-8985-21CCFCE401EA.jpeg
Here’s a way better look, definitely cracking. I wasn’t taking the photos in the correct areas. Looks like I’m going to have to do the repair, this will be my a&p’s 3rd wing walk replacement so he says he will be a lot more experienced and knowledgeable and could do it faster. But the last one he did ended up being around 13k. But definitely if there is any a&p with good tips on the wing walk repair process do tell. Who could of thought airplanes are expensive haha. Now for the biggest question, shouldn’t have been caught in the prebuy , now that’s it’s obviously the cracks are this pronounced, is this a common service bulletin people are aware of?
 
Most Techs that work on Cherokees would be famliar with the issue.

IMHO In order to find this during a PB there would have to be more than

1 working day involved or 12+ hours involved. Again not everyone

approaches this the same. My preferred order is:

1 Logs and Paperwork

2, Engine Compression and Screen etc

3 . Airframe - Open , inspect , close

What was your agreement of how many hours to spend on the PB Survey?

Even if it’s “only “ $13K I think it’s worthwhile contacting a DER and seeing

if there are other avenues to this.
 
Magman said:
Most Techs that work on Cherokees would be famliar with the issue.

IMHO In order to find this during a PB there would have to be more than

1 working day involved or 12+ hours involved. Again not everyone

approaches this the same. My preferred order is:

1 Logs and Paperwork

2, Engine Compression and Screen etc

3 . Airframe - Open , inspect , close

What was your agreement of how many hours to spend on the PB Survey?

Even if it’s “only “ $13K I think it’s worthwhile contacting a DER and seeing

if there are other avenues to this.
Click to expand...
Me and my mechanic are exploring the DER route, any suggestions of people who have a fix to this and have it well documented or just go call the pipe tech line (i’ve heard they are not helpful)
 
Does the Piper maintenance manuals or service bulletin allow cracks? Has anyone even looked at the reference documents?
 
Magman said:
Just what is the “ AD” that some folks are talking about here?
...
Click to expand...
A very informative looking (I am not qualified to judge) post. Your sub-editor has removed what appear to be many extraneous blank lines which spoiled the flow for this reader.

Magman said:-
"Just what is the “ AD” that some folks are talking about here?

Airworthiness Directives have very specific methods of inspecting the area of concern. Visual, 10x glass , dye penetrant, ultrasound etc are called out in the AD. There may be Repair Tolerances and Frequency of Inspection specified in the document also. The AD may refer to a Mfg Service Bulletin but the afore mentioned Methods and Frequency will often be different.

The pix from OP do not appear to show cracks . #6 does show real cracks.

I have some skins here that have multiple cracks which seems the norm with these. IIRC Piper wings are not constructed symmetrical. The Left Wing has some skins that are thinner than the Right Wing. It would become a major concern if the outer skin actually displayed cracking. Removing the wing for a possible crack or an indication that it may crack in the future is not warranted. Note that is in this area only.

IMHO the OP should NOT AUTHORIZE the Inspecting Agency to make the repair. Suggested course of events:

1. Have the IA or Repair Station complete the Annual Inspection and furnish a list of all discrepancies with an approximate cost to address each.

2. The facility can make the appropriate Record Entries for work accomplished. This is essentially saying the aircraft is Airworthy except for the items noted.

3. At this point any properly certificated person can address the listed discrepancies and the aircraft is then Airworthy. OP can have anyone he chooses do this. It does not mean the repair has to be done in a manner specified the folks that did the initial inspection.

Terms such as “ as per “ and “I/a/w” are often used in aircraft maintenance. What is the Inspecting Agency using for guidance in conducting the inspection and the projected repair? I know of no Airworthiness Directive that mandates the inspection as is being conducted.

A DER can deter other repair strategies or determine there is no action needed at this time. Cessna Manuals are much more detailed in detailing things like allowable and repairable damage. Piper is sorely lacking in this department.

Removing and reinstalling a Cherokee wing is not a task to be taken lightly."

A AD circa ‘80’s that specified wing removal was rescinded as the process was determined to be likely to cause more significant damage.
 
Last edited:
At one time Piper Manuals directed you to AC 43.13-1.

There is a listing of DERs on-line and are listed by specialty.

A DER may be able develop “Approved Data” that your mechanic can

use to repair your aircraft. This method does not have to agree with Piper.

Note they do not have to be in your geographical area.
 
bnt83 said:
Step 1, verify the observed cracks are truly cracks.

Brakes? Well, they wear out.

You would do well to study preventative maintenance section of part 43 and get your own aircraft maintenance manual and fix stuff yourself, like brakes, tires, oil changes etc.
Click to expand...
Very true to a point. Brake pads yes. Anything more no. Don’t imply or mislead because ultimately your IA will ask: who/what/where/why
 
lucasfransen said:
Hi I am 17 and bought an airplane with some money I saved up, and got a Piper Challenger 180 (PA-28). Bought it back in March after I had a prebuy done on it and said it was free of cracks and corrosion on the wing spar and other places. Couple that with it have a a 0 time engine I bought the plane. Starting doing my training and was about ready for check ride, then my annual came… they found cracks in the wing walk area, and the breaks basically shot. Stuff I told this guy on the prebuy to check this stuff, and i’m pretty upset. Anyways here’s some photos of the cracks, so any of you owner or ames have any tips maybe to where they don’t have to remove the wing to get to the forward and aft panels? Really sucks because you know 17 years old can’t come up with 18k very quickly . But I guess that what I get for expecting aircraft ownership to be economically. Definitely learning a lot though, anyways just shoot me all your guys tips and tricks, I am a first gen pilot in my fam and more info the better.
Click to expand...
 
Hard to see the crack in the pictures, not sure i see on. when you climb up on the wing walk does it have a soft spot? I have a client that sorta has some what of a soft spot, he has deferred it for a while there is a doubler underneath (the bath tub structure in the picture. If thats where the crack is it may be possible to use a doubler. more concerning is there a crack on top wing skin ? then the question is did it crack from some one jumping on or is there an issue of the wing attachment.
 
Bob H said:
Very true to a point. Brake pads yes. Anything more no. Don’t imply or mislead because ultimately your IA will ask: who/what/where/why
Click to expand...
Very much agreed !! I seen more "first timers" get mis directed by well meaning owners, once started down that path, its a slippery slope. he needs to buddy up with an a&P at his field, preferable outside a shop.
 
Things like that, get a second opinion.
 
Here's some pictures of a PA-28 Wing Walk replacement with the wing off. If you get a couple dozen CherryMax Rivets you can do the same thing with the wing still mounted. This wing had to be pulled for the wing spar bolt hole eddy-current A.D..
2021-06-15 14.37.43.jpg
2021-06-15 14.38.00.jpg
2021-06-15 14.39.39.jpg
2021-06-15 14.48.33.jpg
2021-06-17 09.59.41.jpg
There was only 10,000 hours on this Cherokee so, this was only the second Wing Walk replacement. Don't know what to tell ya but, this only took a couple guys three days to replace the wing walk, install an inspection hole and do the eddy current inspection. Other words, less then $5000.00 in 2021 prices. Obviously inflation is getting worse.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top