Need LightSport advice

[Pa28-140]

Hi folks! I am helping a friend get information for purchasing a LightSport airplane. He "may" have medical issues and rather than fight it he is considering light sport.

My friend is a big guy (300lbs) so he needs something that will afford the maximum comfort and also that will give the maximum useful load. I went with him to the LightSport flyin in Mt. Vernon Illinois this fall and left more confused than when I got there.

I know many of you fly LightSport. What airplane will give the most room, useful load, and factory support. The last thing he (or anyone) needs is a company that might not be here tomorrow. Any and all advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I got into the AOPA sweepstakes plane at Oshkosh and found it to be roomy. It was a Remos. I weighed in at 270, 6'4" at the time and with my wife onboard, (she is not exactly petite), we had plenty of room for meaningful fuel. However, I heard a rumor that they were having financial problems and may not be around long. But rumors are worth what you pay for them

Another option is the CTLS line. They look a lot like the Remos, IMO and have similar cabin dimensions. It was just a tad tighter in the shoulder than the Remos, but I think for your friend's purpose, it would be worth a look.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

One think I like about my Merlin GT compared to similar aircraft (Avid Flyer, Kit Fox) is that it has more interior room.

I'm 6', 220 pounds. My oldest is not exactly a lightweight and we fit in fine side by side... (see my profile picture)

At 300 pounds, he would be limited to about 160 pounds in the right seat in my aircraft (with full fuel).

The company probably will not be there tomorrow, but it is amateur built experimental (not E-LSA or S-LSA), so that is not an issue.

 

[EppyGA]

I would add in Tecnam and Paradise as decent options. Beyond that some of the older planes that qualify, Luscombe, Cub, etc.

 

[Clark1961]

Hey, if your friend has deep pockets go for the Carbon Cub. Anybody can fix'em and the question on max gross is really very open (as long as no one is looking at the book).

 

[steingar]

I've heard you can build or install a single bench seat in a Sonex that will hold anybody. I think Soneci are LSP eligible.

 

[deltafox]

PiperSport has about 460# useful load.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

As has been said, I'd say that both the Remos and Flight Design aircraft offer a bunch of room in them. Might want to check on the older Flight Designs, I seem to recall them having a maximum seat load, but that may not be true of the newer aircraft.

 

[Pilawt]

+1 on the Carbon Cub. It doesn't have the highest useful load, but it has far and away the most power (180 hp) in the light sport category. It's built in the US, and the company has been in the Cub business since 1980.

 

[Dean]

I would ask first what is he planning to do with the LSA? Is he going to use it as a XC airplane or stay close to home and fly for fun? There are several experimentals that have 500lb useful loads and room enough for a 300lb pilot. And he can buy one for a 1/3 the cost of a factory SLSA.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm working in a CTsw with a guy who's 6'7" and weighs 260. The biggest problem is his leg length, not his width. However, the CTsw has a seat weight limit of 260 lb, so he's got to keep his face out of the fridge if he wants to keep flying it. Don't know if other LSA's have similar seat limits, but if this guy weighs 300, you'd better check on that for each model under consideration no matter how big the useful load or payload is.

Also, make sure his apparently-disqualifying medical condition (whatever it is), isn't incompatible with being a Sport Pilot. See the Federal Air Surgeon's guidance on that at http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/sportpilots/.

 

[dennyleeb]

Hi folks! I am helping a friend get information for purchasing a LightSport airplane. He "may" have medical issues and rather than fight it he is considering light sport.

My friend is a big guy (300lbs) so he needs something that will afford the maximum comfort and also that will give the maximum useful load. I went with him to the LightSport flyin in Mt. Vernon Illinois this fall and left more confused than when I got there.

I know many of you fly LightSport. What airplane will give the most room, useful load, and factory support. The last thing he (or anyone) needs is a company that might not be here tomorrow. Any and all advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Talk to Eric Evans at Evans Aviation in Mt Vernon. I bought a Jabiru from him a few years back and loved it. Check it out!!
Denny

 

[ejensen]

Talk to Eric Evans at Evans Aviation in Mt Vernon. I bought a Jabiru from him a few years back and loved it. Check it out!!
Denny

Just bought my J230 thru Eric. Nice guy to work with.

I was hesitant to mention Jabiru when I read the 300 lbs issue. I'm 6'2" and 190. Comfortable in the plane but hard to imagine another 100 lbs in the seat. With the center controls/console you can't spread into the other seat at all.

 

[Jeanie]

+1 on the Carbon Cub. It doesn't have the highest useful load, but it has far and away the most power (180 hp) in the light sport category. It's built in the US, and the company has been in the Cub business since 1980.

~~~~ I thought there was a horsepower limit for LSA aircraft?

 

[poadeleted20]

~~~~ I thought there was a horsepower limit for LSA aircraft?

Here's the reg:

Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:
(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than--
(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or
(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.
(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.
(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.
(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.
(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.
(8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider.
(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.
(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.
(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider.
(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.
(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.

Nothing there directly about power. I suspect the biggest issue is the combination of max weight and max speed -- you might have trouble designing an airplane that weighs less than 1320 lb loaded but won't be driven more than 120 KIAS by 180HP, but if you make it draggy enough, I suppose you can get it to fit under the LSA rule.

 

[Troska]

You don't have to make it draggy enough - you just set the max continuous rpm such that you don't exceed the 120KIAS/sealevel restriction.

Tim

Here's the reg:
Nothing there directly about power. I suspect the biggest issue is the combination of max weight and max speed -- you might have trouble designing an airplane that weighs less than 1320 lb loaded but won't be driven more than 120 KIAS by 180HP, but if you make it draggy enough, I suppose you can get it to fit under the LSA rule.

 

[maddog52]

The Tecnam P-92 Echo Super has a useful load of around 600 lbs. The FK-9 MK IV and FK 9 ELA both have usefule loads of over 600 lbs as long as you don't load it with a lot of extra stuff. A BRS will cost you 30-35 lbs. Tecnam has been in business since 1947 and FK since 1959 so they are pretty well established companies.

The FA-04 Peregrine has a useful load of around 570 lbs with a 44 inch wide cabin. Flaeming air has been producing planes for the EU microlight and VLA markets for about 15 years.

The Sky Arrow 600 has a fairly roomy cockpit despite being a tandem seater. With 27 inches in front, and 28 in back for elbow room, you would have to have a 55 inch wide side by side aircraft to get the equivalent room. Unfortunately, there is around a 270 lb limit on the front seat due to cg limitations. The manufacturer has been in business since 1947 and makes a Part 23 Type Certificated version something very few of the other manufacturers can claim.

Most of the LSA elidgble legacy aircraft (Luscombes, Champs, T-carts) have pretty low useful loads and performance compared to some of the newer SLSAs.

Be careful when comparing useful loads stated on advertising materials. Some manufacturers are very optomistic with their numbers. The only way to know for sure, is to find a particular model of aircraft equipped like you want and ask to see the equipment list and weight and balance sheet for that particular aircraft. That is the only way to get a good comparison. Even take these with a grain of salt. I've seen some that weren't even close when you actually put them on the scalse. Some distributors have a weight column on the options and order sheet that will estimate the weight each option will cost you. FK is one of these.

Bottom line, get actual numbers from actual aircraft before you make a descision. And tell your buddy to ignore advice about just buying one and not worrying about the loading. It's a very bad idea because it's illegal and potentially life threatening.


In the interest of full disclosure, I have been or am currently a dealer/distributor for all of the SLSAs mentioned above.

 

[BillTIZ]

They allow the 180hp in the carbon cub for takeoff, time limited But allowed cruise power is reduced to keep it in the LSA speed zone.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

They allow the 180hp in the carbon cub for takeoff, time limited But allowed cruise power is reduced to keep it in the LSA speed zone.

Who is they? There is no regulatory requirement on horsepower for an LSA. As such, the manufacture did what they needed to do to keep the plane in the regulations.

 

[poadeleted20]

"They," in this case, would be the aircraft manufacturer, since for LSA's, that's who gets to set the operating limitations.

 

[dennyleeb]

What most do on the carbon cub is order a lsa, get it, then turn it into experimental with extra equipment and capacity

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

"They," in this case, would be the aircraft manufacturer, since for LSA's, that's who gets to set the operating limitations.

Just wanted to make sure that's who it was. Didn't want people to continue down the "there is a legal limit on HP for a LSA" road.

 

[ejensen]

What most do on the carbon cub is order a lsa, get it, then turn it into experimental with extra equipment and capacity

Didn't know you could turn a S-LSA into an experimental. How's that work?

 

[dennyleeb]

Didn't know you could turn a S-LSA into an experimental. How's that work?

most don't want to b/c of decrease in value but on a plane like the Carbon Cub SS it has its advantages. I don't know how but I have seen it done.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Didn't know you could turn a S-LSA into an experimental. How's that work?

You can't.

S-LSA is factory built to the ASME (or somebody) standards. Once factory bult always factory bult.

E-LSA is amateur built to the S-LSA specs - you don't have to meet the so called 51% rule but you do have to stick to the original design.

Experimental Amateur Built - build it yourself - has to meet the 51% rule. To be LSA eligible, has to meet the LSA requirements stated earlier in the thread but does not have to be built to any particular design.

Ok- you can take factory built and turn it into experimental for developing an STC or things like that - but that is not typical "experimental", eh?

 

[ejensen]

You can't.

S-LSA is factory built to the ASME (or somebody) standards. Once factory bult always factory bult.

E-LSA is amateur built to the S-LSA specs - you don't have to meet the so called 51% rule but you do have to stick to the original design.

Experimental Amateur Built - build it yourself - has to meet the 51% rule. To be LSA eligible, has to meet the LSA requirements stated earlier in the thread but does not have to be built to any particular design.

Ok- you can take factory built and turn it into experimental for developing an STC or things like that - but that is not typical "experimental", eh?

That's been my understanding too. You want an unrestricted CCub you have to build it yourself. But I've been sure before and learned different.

 

[zaitcev]

I weigh "only" 230..236 imperial pounds now, but I tried to arrange LSAs by the useful load a year or so ago. They come up at about this order:

Skylark II - 643 (generally offers magical numbers though)
Remos - 615
Tecnam I missed due to some scandals with poor factory support, say 600
Sport Hornet - 580, amazingly enough
X-Air LS - 574, you will love the price but not lack of doors
CTLS - 550
Elitar Sigma - 550
C-162 - 510
Am.Leg. Cub - 485
Sky Arrow - 480
Luscombe - 440 to 500 (all of the 4 delivered are different, haha)

Heed maddog52's warning, these numbers are fudged. But, broadly speaking, trends are there: the only way to is to reduce the dry weight. So, plastic and plastic. In case of Skylark II, magical plastic (nobody had wing spar break on those yet?) Or, you can remove the skins and doors and fly Hornet of X-Air, just very slowly.

They had a thread at sportpilottalk.com about problems of fat sport pilots. One consideration was to find a petite woman instructor.

When I saw the verdict of these numbers, I started running every day. Then I gave up on LSAs (because they are impossible to rent in my area), but continued running. This is something to consider, your body will only thank you later.

-- Pete

 

[ejensen]

My Jabiru J230 has a actual weighed useful load of 475#. Go with minimum equipment and you could get to over 500#. But like a said earlier, the OP question would have height & width issues.

 

[dennyleeb]

You can't.

S-LSA is factory built to the ASME (or somebody) standards. Once factory bult always factory bult.

E-LSA is amateur built to the S-LSA specs - you don't have to meet the so called 51% rule but you do have to stick to the original design.

Experimental Amateur Built - build it yourself - has to meet the 51% rule. To be LSA eligible, has to meet the LSA requirements stated earlier in the thread but does not have to be built to any particular design.

Ok- you can take factory built and turn it into experimental for developing an STC or things like that - but that is not typical "experimental", eh?

Say what you want but I know for a fact it can be done b/c I have sit it one that it has been done with. The factory helped the customer get it done. I am not talking about a story I heard I am talking about a actual plane I have sit in. Maybe it was not the typical "experimental" but the factory I am talking about was gonna help me do the same. There are loop holes to most things. I do not know the specifics of how they do it...

Eric how do you like your Jabiru? I loved mine just outgrew it. I had a 250.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

E-LSA is amateur built to the S-LSA specs - you don't have to meet the so called 51% rule but you do have to stick to the original design

Not entirely true. You can take an S-LSA and turn it into an E-LSA, but once it has been done, you can't reverse it. IIRC, one of the various pilot forums has a pilot who took a Sky Arrow S-LSA and got it converted to an E-LSA. Not sure if it's this forum or another, but I'll look for it.

 

[N801BH]

Hi folks! I am helping a friend get information for purchasing a LightSport airplane. He "may" have medical issues and rather than fight it he is considering light sport.

My friend is a big guy (300lbs) so he needs something that will afford the maximum comfort and also that will give the maximum useful load. I went with him to the LightSport flyin in Mt. Vernon Illinois this fall and left more confused than when I got there.

I know many of you fly LightSport. What airplane will give the most room, useful load, and factory support. The last thing he (or anyone) needs is a company that might not be here tomorrow. Any and all advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Have your 'friend' lose 100 lbs and two things will happen..
1- his medical problems will probably dissappear.
2- the useful load on a lightsport plane will increase 100 lbs.

I don't see a downside to this solution.

 

[jnmeade]

Not entirely true. You can take an S-LSA and turn it into an E-LSA, but once it has been done, you can't reverse it. IIRC, one of the various pilot forums has a pilot who took a Sky Arrow S-LSA and got it converted to an E-LSA. Not sure if it's this forum or another, but I'll look for it.

I was told by Carol Carpenter, Rainbow Aviation, an LSA dealer, that there were a few cases where E-LSA were reconverted to S-LSA but she said it was difficult and not practical.
I was told by her and the FAA that it was quite easy to change an S-LSA to E-LSA. You can't use it for instruction anymore. but, you can now do your own maintenance if you meet the training requirements and you can change out items that don't invalidate it's certification. For example, you can swap out a Garmin Sl-30 for an SL-40, but you can't put on a prop that will deliver over 120 or a wing that will not meet stall speed requirements.

 

[ejensen]

I was told by Carol Carpenter, Rainbow Aviation, an LSA dealer, that there were a few cases where E-LSA were reconverted to S-LSA but she said it was difficult and not practical.
I was told by her and the FAA that it was quite easy to change an S-LSA to E-LSA. You can't use it for instruction anymore. but, you can now do your own maintenance if you meet the training requirements and you can change out items that don't invalidate it's certification. For example, you can swap out a Garmin Sl-30 for an SL-40, but you can't put on a prop that will deliver over 120 or a wing that will not meet stall speed requirements.

You can do maintenance on an S-LSAs with the FAA repairman certificate-maintenance if allowed by the manual.

I still don't see much to be gained by changing to E-LSA. Don't you still have to meet the kit producers specs with no deviation allowed without their OK? I can get a letter from USJabiru to change my SL-30 to an SL-40 since the offer that config. I think you'd have to go full experimental to do the changes the cub folks want.

 

[dennyleeb]

You can do maintenance on an S-LSAs with the FAA repairman certificate-maintenance if allowed by the manual.

I still don't see much to be gained by changing to E-LSA. Don't you still have to meet the kit producers specs with no deviation allowed without their OK? I can get a letter from USJabiru to change my SL-30 to an SL-40 since the offer that config. I think you'd have to go full experimental to do the changes the cub folks want.

For example as a E-LSA you pick up aprox 150lb usefull load in the Jabiru.

 

[ejensen]

For example as a E-LSA you pick up aprox 150lb usefull load in the Jabiru.

Not and stay an LSA, AFAIA. It can gain 220# to 1540 as an experimental or in some other countries if flown by a Private or beter pilot.

 

[Pa28-140]

Thanks for all of the replies that I have gotten. I'm not sure I understand the S-LSA versus E-LSA issue other than you can do your own maintenance if you are the "manufacturer" of an experimental. Regardless, that isn't going to happen with my friend. Also, money isn't the real issue either (lucky for him). The bigger issue is room and useful load. Yes, he needs to lose 100 pounds and he knows it. No, it is never going to happen, although I will try to encourage him to do so.

I do have a lingering question though. Why is it that if the airplane is to be put on floats that they give you an extra 200 pounds of useful load?? I would think that, barring changes in the engine or wing, that useful load is an absolute. It's either safe and in the envelope or not? I would appreciate some comments so that I can understand that.

Another thing that I noticed at the Mount Vernon LSA show was how many exhibitors were blatant about disregarding the useful load restriction. Not one but several people were very upfront about telling me how they and their sons (240lbs +220lbs) would just load her up with fuel and go. No problem. Sorry, but I'm too big of a chicken to operate that way. I'd sure appreciate more comments about this and the float issue. Thanks!

 

[EppyGA]

Thanks for all of the replies that I have gotten. I'm not sure I understand the S-LSA versus E-LSA issue other than you can do your own maintenance if you are the "manufacturer" of an experimental. Regardless, that isn't going to happen with my friend. Also, money isn't the real issue either (lucky for him). The bigger issue is room and useful load. Yes, he needs to lose 100 pounds and he knows it. No, it is never going to happen, although I will try to encourage him to do so.

I do have a lingering question though. Why is it that if the airplane is to be put on floats that they give you an extra 200 pounds of useful load?? I would think that, barring changes in the engine or wing, that useful load is an absolute. It's either safe and in the envelope or not? I would appreciate some comments so that I can understand that.

Another thing that I noticed at the Mount Vernon LSA show was how many exhibitors were blatant about disregarding the useful load restriction. Not one but several people were very upfront about telling me how they and their sons (240lbs +220lbs) would just load her up with fuel and go. No problem. Sorry, but I'm too big of a chicken to operate that way. I'd sure appreciate more comments about this and the float issue. Thanks!

I couldn't find exact info for you, but the Paradise P1 is sold in Brazil as a four place aircraft. Not sure what the Max gross is down there. Maybe someone else can dig it out.

 

[maddog52]

Not and stay an LSA, AFAIA. It can gain 200# to 1540 as an experimental or in some other countries if flown by a Private or beter pilot.

Correct. If you somehow change the limitations on the Special Airworthiness Certificate and it falls out of the parameters for LSA, then it is NOT an LSA anymore. Period. It can't be a SLSA, or ELSA, or flown by a Sport Pilot as an Experimental Amateur Built.

 

[ejensen]

You can do maintenance on either S-LSA or E-LSA with the right training and certificate. The builder might be able to do his own E-LSA without the 120 hour course, I'm not sure. The certificate lets you work on any aircraft if the manual (and owner) permit even for pay. An E-LSA can have the annual done with on the Inspection rating, a weekend course. Repairs have to be done by a LSA repairman or A&P.

One the weight thing, it doesn't make it legal but several of the aircraft are certified at a higher gross weight under different rules (usually experimental in this country). They were down rated in their airworthiness certificate and operating manual to meet LSA requirements. So you may not break things and be out of W&B if you're a few pounds over. Some I'm aware of that fall in this area: Paradise P1 (?), Jabiru J230/250 (1540#), Lightning LS1 (1425#) and Carbon Cub (1865#?).

 

[westslopeco]

Another thing that I noticed at the Mount Vernon LSA show was how many exhibitors were blatant about disregarding the useful load restriction. Not one but several people were very upfront about telling me how they and their sons (240lbs +220lbs) would just load her up with fuel and go. No problem. Sorry, but I'm too big of a chicken to operate that way. I'd sure appreciate more comments about this and the float issue. Thanks!

I think the answer to that question is that many of the LSAs are CERTIFIED to mgw of 1320lbs in order to meet the requirements of the LSA type cert. In reality the aircraft can carry more safely, but if it was certified at the higher gross, it would not qualify as an LSA. An example of this is the Kitfox Super Sport 7. You can build it with a max gross of 1550lbs, but CERTIFY it at a max gross of 1320 so that it can be operated as an LSA. In other words the max gross of 1320 is simply for paperwork reasons, not what the aircraft can safely carry.

Edit: I was typing as Eric was posting...