Need help on centerline alignment short final to touchdown landings

[skynewbie]

My pattern and approach work has improved after changing instructors and training at KPAO which is closer to work and home. The only thing I need to work on noted by my instructor is to better get aligned with the runway centerline. I tend to either land too far left or right. Any tips on this?

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Keep in mind the nose of the plane isn't necessarily the direction you are going. Fly the plane the direction its moving not the direction the nose is pointing. Don't worry we've all suffered from this :wink2:

 

[MAKG1]

Look further down the runway. And put the centerline between your legs.

It's unusual to make this error in both directions. Usually, it's always left of center.

 

[bqmassey]

Odd, I'm almost always right of center unless I make a conscious effort not to be. Especially on large runways.

 

[skynewbie]

Most of the time I have been too far left of the centerline especially today. Thank you MAKG for the tip, I will try this it should help me greatly on getting my landing alignment correctly. At least I am doing flare correct and not bouncing or hitting the noseswheel like I was a few months ago. I like training at KPAO its good experience and challenging with the busy airspace.

 

[poadeleted21]

If you have a crosswind, fly it to the ground. My wife wanted to have all controls neutral before touchdown, caused her to drift in any sort of wind.

 

[skynewbie]

No crosswind today so will try MAKG tip and AOPA has something in line with this as well.

 

[wabower]

Fly the length of a long runway in landing configuration with just enough power to remain 6" above the surface. You'll get much more practice time and be able to work out the control inputs necessary to obtain the touchdown alignment you want to achieve. A couple of laps will do wonders for your technique.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Besides looking forward and aligning the centerline to just under the nose (or the visualized centerline on strips with no markings) I have always done quick, peripheral glances out to the side, primarily the one I'm sitting on as PIC.

 

[BillTIZ]

Keep in mind the nose of the plane isn't necessarily the direction you are going. Fly the plane the direction its moving not the direction the nose is pointing. Don't worry we've all suffered from this :wink2:

I should hope, that when you are landing, the nose is pointed in the direction you are going. Unless you always land sideways. It's hard on the tires.

Don't try it in a conventional airplane.

Nose down the runway, wing low for the crosswind slip.

And look farther down the runway to keep the alignment.

 

[jjflys]

See if a school near you has a redbird xc crosswind simulator. An hour on one should really help your issue, as it did mine. It teaches you where to look and what the alignment should look like.

I also agree with others that you want to look down the runway, not right off the nose.

 

[cocolos]

The tip I learned that helped a lot is extend the centerline towards you and align yourself that way.

 

[j1b3h0]

Find a narrower runway - if you're flying over a narrow sidewalk, it's quite evident whether you're lined up. Once you've got the sidewalk thing figured out, think of the centerline as a sidewalk. You have just highlighted a very tangeable measure of a pilots' control: Whether he or she can land on a specific place on the runway. And the faster the airplane, the more critical that becomes. In a BC12D Taylorcraft, straddeleing the centerline and landing on the numbers is easy. If you can't do it in a 152, you're not on your game. Keep practicing, and good luck!

 

[skynewbie]

Thanks I will practice more and my instructor will help me as well. Here is a schematic that I am thinking of:

===================================
|
|
|
|
centerline RW31

=+=========nose of plane=====
| middle of my seat right seat

 

[skynewbie]

Thanks I will practice more and my instructor will help me as well. Here is a schematic that I am thinking of:

===================================
|
|
|
|
centerline RW31

=+=========nose of plane=====
| middle of my seat right seat

 

[jnmeade]

As you turn base to final, get lined up and then KEEP IT LINED UP by you making the airplane go where you want it to be. Don't presume that getting it in position means it will stay in position. Wind direction and speed often - maybe usually - change in the altitude between turning final and touchdown. You have to initiate the correct inputs all the way to the runway. You should fly the plane, not be along for the ride (all the way to the hangar, actually). That may mean you make frequent, usually small, inputs as soon as you detect the need, not after you're way off. Trust your eye and your instincts and react quickly and smoothly to deviations.

 

[TMetzinger]

Fly the length of a long runway in landing configuration with just enough power to remain 6" above the surface. You'll get much more practice time and be able to work out the control inputs necessary to obtain the touchdown alignment you want to achieve. A couple of laps will do wonders for your technique.

When I was learning to fly, and then later when I learned to fly in the right seat for my CFI ticket, this exercise was very helpful.

I suspect that the close proximity of the surface provides valuable information that you don't catch for more than 4 or 5 seconds on a "normal" landing attempt.

 

[Henning]

My pattern and approach work has improved after changing instructors and training at KPAO which is closer to work and home. The only thing I need to work on noted by my instructor is to better get aligned with the runway centerline. I tend to either land too far left or right. Any tips on this?

Practice. Seriously, that's all there is to it. Don't be afraid to use the controls and even add a touch of throttle. You are full flaps right?

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Fly the length of a long runway in landing configuration with just enough power to remain 6" above the surface. You'll get much more practice time and be able to work out the control inputs necessary to obtain the touchdown alignment you want to achieve. A couple of laps will do wonders for your technique.

This is great advice. I did this with all of my primary students to teach control inputs during crosswind landings but it can also be applied in this situation to help with maintaining runway centerline (with or without a crosswind).

 

[CT4ME]

The CT is very hard to line-up, for several reasons. Eventually, you get the feel for it. In the meantime, I put a couple of little dots on the windscreen. 'Just tiny pieces from the sticky part of a Post'it. Take the plane and line it up on a nice long taxi line. Put the dots about 6-8" apart, vertically, to align with the taxi line. Pretty soon you won't need them.

 

[MAKG1]

See if a school near you has a redbird xc crosswind simulator. An hour on one should really help your issue, as it did mine. It teaches you where to look and what the alignment should look like.

I also agree with others that you want to look down the runway, not right off the nose.

There is a Redbird full motion simulator next door at Advanced Flyers, and a dedicated crosswind simulator at SQL. I haven't used either. I question whether the sight picture is the same, and I think that's the issue at hand.

 

[Henning]

There is a Redbird full motion simulator next door at Advanced Flyers, and a dedicated crosswind simulator at SQL. I haven't used either. I question whether the sight picture is the same, and I think that's the issue at hand.

Doesn't much matter, the sight picture that counts is always the same regardless the airplane. The most likely problem they are having is not getting the wing down for a landing, the goal is not to land flat, it's to land with no drift. More often than not you land on one wheel with contradictory rudder and bank inputs, and you should be increasing them all the way to the stops until everything runs out.

 

[MAKG1]

He's complaining of landing off center, not with side-load. That's about aiming and parallax, not crosswind drift correction.

 

[Henning]

He's complaining of landing off center, not with side-load. That's about aiming and parallax, not crosswind drift correction.

They typically go hand in hand though as parallax shifts with crosswind.

 

[midlifeflyer]

They typically go hand in hand though as parallax shifts with crosswind.

They can but not always. I didn't have too much trouble with xwind landings, even when I couldn't land on the centerline on a bet.

But getting lined up properly - centerline between the feet and square to the chest - will definitely help those with xwind landing problems.

 

[wabower]

Hair-splitting at its finest.

If he was aligned during the approach but not at touch-down, something made the plane move one way or the other. Whatever it was/is, he needs time to analyze how and why he's out of position and how to correct it.

 

[Henning]

They can but not always. I didn't have too much trouble with xwind landings, even when I couldn't land on the centerline on a bet.

But getting lined up properly - centerline between the feet and square to the chest - will definitely help those with xwind landing problems.

That's just it, I may not square up to centerline until the very bottom. The only thing that matters is stability of runway parallax.
Here's a vid a buddy shot a while back, kinda long but at the end it has a pretty stable approach regardless of crabbing or slipping for alignment and you can tell because the picture is always 'stable' in the windscreen. It's that stability one is looking for regardless where the plane is pointed or oriented.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFR0BKqTs6U&sns=em

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I should hope, that when you are landing, the nose is pointed in the direction you are going. Unless you always land sideways. It's hard on the tires.

Don't try it in a conventional airplane.

Nose down the runway, wing low for the crosswind slip.

And look farther down the runway to keep the alignment.

You fly the entirety of your final in a slip? Yes kick it into alignment once on short final but I meant prior to that... dont follow the nose... theres this thing called a crab angle :wink2:

 

[Jeanie]

Also, remember that as you get into "slow flight" right before landing you will need to use your feet to not let the plane ease off left. And, as you pull back on the elevator with your left hand make sure you are pulling straight back and not twisting your wrist, assuming no wind.
Look directly in front of you, way down the runway- not at the nose. Making a mark on the lower part of the windscreen that is straight in front of you while at your normal seat height position might help with alignment.
Boils down to practice.

 

[Luvrv8]

I had a issue with landing just left of center line. My CFI noticed I was checking airspeed too often on short final, with the air speed indicator on the left of the panel, as I looked at it I versed left. He covered up the indicator and had me do touch and goes at several airports with him. He broke my habit of fixating on air speed and my landings are now much more on centerline.

 

[BillTIZ]

You fly the entirety of your final in a slip? Yes kick it into alignment once on short final but I meant prior to that... dont follow the nose... theres this thing called a crab angle :wink2:

Yes.
Actually I can do either, carb and kick, or wing low slip to track centerline.

As my J-3 instructor taught me, if you can't hold centerline with a slip and rudder on final, how do you know if you have enough rudder to hold centerline on landing.

 

[MAKG1]

If you "kick" it at 100 AGL, you will still have time to evaluate the correction and go around if necessary. But you should already know the reported crosswind and have your personal and aircraft limits evaluated. While reality might differ from the report, at least you'll know if conditions are close to limits.

 

[whifferdill]

As my J-3 instructor taught me, if you can't hold centerline with a slip and rudder on final, how do you know if you have enough rudder to hold centerline on landing.

Holding centerline is overrated. You can always speed up...to Vne if necessary. That's the beauty of landing tailwheel airplanes. Holding centerline is never the problem. Getting the tail down is.

 

[BillTIZ]

Holding centerline is overrated. You can always speed up...to Vne if necessary. That's the beauty of landing tailwheel airplanes. Holding centerline is never the problem. Getting the tail down is.

Agreed, and slowing down to get the tail down means less rudder effectiveness.

Always a challenge on strong crosswind days.

 

[wabower]

Which is the precise reason a lot of the wind-country dragger pilots land 3-point. If it goes around, the slower speed can be the difference between bent and unbent when the dust settles.

Holding centerline is overrated. You can always speed up...to Vne if necessary. That's the beauty of landing tailwheel airplanes. Holding centerline is never the problem. Getting the tail down is.

 

[flyingron]

My wife hits me when I mumble something about the centerline being out of service on her landings.

 

[dell30rb]

Holding centerline is overrated. You can always speed up...to Vne if necessary. That's the beauty of landing tailwheel airplanes. Holding centerline is never the problem. Getting the tail down is.

I had a friend say that he preferred landing three point because 'its all over at once'

 

[jspilot]

My pattern and approach work has improved after changing instructors and training at KPAO which is closer to work and home. The only thing I need to work on noted by my instructor is to better get aligned with the runway centerline. I tend to either land too far left or right. Any tips on this?

I definitely had and still have at times this same problem. The thing that helped me with this is two parts. The first part is, don't wait until you are close to the runway to align with the center line. You mention short final in your post as when your alignment is off but if you picture the center line extended out while on final, you will have a better visual picture in your head of what it looks like to be aligned. The second thing that worked is to fly the plane all the way to the runway. Even when you are close tontouchdown, don't let the plane just float around and be pushed off to a side. Use the airlerons all the way down.

The local DPE is very strict on landing on the centerline so I had this stuff drummed into my head when I was training for my check ride. My CFI's always told me just landing on the runway is not good enough- landing on the centerline is good enough, running over the lights that light up the centerline for night flight during the rollout was their expectation. I've only hit those lights on touchdown a few times but that was their way of emphasizing the importance.