Need help choosing school for Instrument Rating

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Dane R

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drosey44
I am trying to decide between 2 schools to pursue my Instrument Rating at. I'm planning to train Part 61, and plan to fly about 3 times a week. I also plan to complete my instrument written before starting my IFR training, so that should cut down on some of the cost. Below is the price that each school said I should roughly expect.

School A:

- Quoted approx $20,000
- School just opened
- Fleet of 4 Tecnam P2010 with g1000 cockpits, air conditioned
- Simulator to match the Tecnam p2010
- Airport is 7 miles away from my house, Controlled


School B:

- Quoted approx $16,000
- 1, 1973 Piper Cherokee 180 with stacked G5, Autopilot, other glass that I don't know the name of (GPS and such)
- No simulator
- Airport is 14 miles from my house, Uncontrolled

My first thought is, it might be worth the extra $4000ish to train at School A, because if one plane goes down for any reason, I can just fly another. At School B, if the Cherokee goes down, my training is put on hold for however much time.

(Any other recommendations to lower costs?)

Edit: Gas comment removed because it is basically irrelevant, lol.
 
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What are you going to fly after you get the rating/
 
I would go with school A ,thinking the price is rather expensive.
 
student myself, but talk to instructors in person, go for what feels right, if someone rubs you wrong go with the other. but I have always had bad mileage performance vehicles, but always had a motorcycle for mileage. but I would prefer older Cherokee, but the instructor is still the determining factor.
 
And the mileage thing? Seriously? You are looking to spend $20k on flight training and sweating ONE extra gallon of gas per trip to the airport? I am not everyone but I drive 75 miles each way to go to my base of aviation operation.

Not trying to be mean or bite the newb, I'm just sayin'.
 
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I'd say no "simulator" is always a negative in instrument training. The fact that school B doesn't even have one would concern me. Are they the type that tries to teach everything while you're in the airplane? That would indicate to me an "old school" mentality and a "hard knocks" approach to teaching. Ask to go over their syllabus and see how structured their program is. And here's another red flag: if you start flying approaches on your first or second lesson, find another school/instructor.
 
alfadog said:
I mean 20 hrs dual @ $200/hr; 20 hrs with a safety pilot @ $150/hr, 20 hrs simulator dual @ $100/hr. = $9000 and that seems like a lot more than enough.
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That adds up to 60 hours. Don’t you only need 40? Also 20 hours dual? Isn’t 15 the requirement? So even your numbers would be high, right?

My clubs 172 is $70/hr so that would be $2,800 for 40 hours. 15 hours x $50 for a CFI would be $750. So my total would be $3,550. Of course that is the bare minimum 40 and 15 and no ground time but still I can’t see where it could end up as being $16 -20K.

What am I missing?
 
School A for me, but I'd certainly want to see a breakdown. That's nearly an ab initio to IR price.
 
SkyDog58 said:
That adds up to 60 hours. Don’t you only need 40? Also 20 hours dual? Isn’t 15 the requirement? So even your numbers would be high, right?

My clubs 172 is $70/hr so that would be $2,800 for 40 hours. 15 hours x $50 for a CFI would be $750. So my total would be $3,550. Of course that is the bare minimum 40 and 15 and no ground time but still I can’t see where it could end up as being $16 -20K.

What am I missing?
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Yes, I deliberately estimated high to show how very high the OP's numbers were but many folks will not make it in the bare minimum so my numbers are probably closer to what a low-time pilot might need.
 
BrianNC said:
@Dane R, that's for just an instrument rating? Ridiculously high if it is.

@SbestCFII can do it in 7 days for around $5k.
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"Prerequisites for the Accelerated Program:
1) 40 hours cross-country PIC
2) 10 hours of logged actual or simulated Instrument time
..."

So add at least $1640 = $6640 minimum. More if he needs the xc, too.

That is why I was wondering if the OP's prices included a bunch of time-building.
 
write-stuff said:
I'd say no "simulator" is always a negative in instrument training. The fact that school B doesn't even have one would concern me. Are they the type that tries to teach everything while you're in the airplane? That would indicate to me an "old school" mentality and a "hard knocks" approach to teaching. Ask to go over their syllabus and see how structured their program is. And here's another red flag: if you start flying approaches on your first or second lesson, find another school/instructor.
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To me I don't want simulator time, I'm very old school, I like old school, and I prefer old school instruction, but I'm sure I'm in the minority here. I just can't deal with them, I prefer steam gauges to glass, I can't get into video screens.
 
As long as school A's instructors actually know how to instruct in a simulator, they're the clear winner here, and the sim will either save you money or significantly add proficiency if used well. Those prices are double what they should be, at both schools. Is school A really "brand new" or did they take over from a defunct outfit?

I've never seen one's car mileage considered for choosing a school before. You have a bright future as a mooney owner, OP. :D
 
Hi all! Thanks for the replies.

alfadog said:
What are you going to fly after you get the rating/
Click to expand...

I plan to continue my training to ATP.

old_biker said:
student myself, but talk to instructors in person, go for what feels right, if someone rubs you wrong go with the other. but I have always had bad mileage performance vehicles, but always had a motorcycle for mileage. but I would prefer older Cherokee, but the instructor is still the determining factor.
Click to expand...

I've heard good things about the main CFI at school B, know nothing about the CFI's at school A since they don't even open for business until Aug 1.

write-stuff said:
I'd say no "simulator" is always a negative in instrument training. The fact that school B doesn't even have one would concern me. Are they the type that tries to teach everything while you're in the airplane? That would indicate to me an "old school" mentality and a "hard knocks" approach to teaching. Ask to go over their syllabus and see how structured their program is. And here's another red flag: if you start flying approaches on your first or second lesson, find another school/instructor.
Click to expand...

Not sure about their instruction style, but I've heard good things about school B. Also, question, why is it a red flag if I fly approaches lesson 1/2? I believe you, I'm just generally curious as to why that's a red flag. I flew a couple of ILS approaches with my PPL instructor near the end of my training just for the heck of it.

frfly172 said:
I would go with school A ,thinking the price is rather expensive.
Click to expand...

BrianNC said:
@Dane R, that's for just an instrument rating? Ridiculously high if it is.

@SbestCFII can do it in 7 days for around $5k.
Click to expand...

Kenny Phillips said:
School A for me, but I'd certainly want to see a breakdown. That's nearly an ab initio to IR price.
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schmookeeg said:
As long as school A's instructors actually know how to instruct in a simulator, they're the clear winner here, and the sim will either save you money or significantly add proficiency if used well. Those prices are double what they should be, at both schools. Is school A really "brand new" or did they take over from a defunct outfit?

I've never seen one's car mileage considered for choosing a school before. You have a bright future as a mooney owner, OP. :D
Click to expand...

@everyone

So just to better understand my situation, I'm a full time college student. I go to school 9 months out of the year (different city than home), and live at home 3 months out of the year. In my college town, there's generally a lack of rental/flight school opportunities. Therefore I believe that they feel that they can charge whatever they want. I'm almost willing to pay it, though, because I'm in a tough situation. I don't want to go to school, put my flight training on hold, and only fly 3 months out of the year when I'm home. (Received my PPL at home before going to college, rented the Cherokee here and there for XC to remain current while at school but then it went down for upgrades for 3 months, long story. Didn't fly for like 6 months, don't want that to happen again.)

Yes, I know the prices are insane because I compared them to schools at home, and they're easily $6K+ less.

School A gave me this breakdown:

50 Hours of flight - Tecnam P2010
80 Hours of Ground
25 Hours of Pre/Post

Said to plan on $20,000, so I don't run out of money during training, then whatever i dont use, I can use for Commercial training.

Not sure that simulator time is accounted for in that quote at all.

Mentioned that the Tecnam is $239/hr which blew my mind at how expensive that is, but I believe that number may include instructor fees as well. Still figuring that out.

I'm waiting on a price breakdown from School B, but I'm surprised that they quoted $16,000 because the Cherokee rents for $150/hr wet which is pretty reasonable in my opinion.

Honestly, no matter what school I go to, I was planning on completing my instrument written before starting so I can cut down on some ground costs. Also plan to work hard during training to try to get my rating in close to minimum time.

I've also contemplated renting the Cherokee at School B (for $150/hr wet) during my fall semester just for time building purposes. Then maybe attend some sort of 7 day IFR rating course during my Christmas break, seen some for like $9000 that includes lodging.
 
Have to agree. $16k or $20k just for an instrument when you already have the private and are reasonably proficient seems outrageous.

It only requires 15 hours of dual and 40 hours total simulated or real instrument flying. The latter can be with a safety pilot and does not require an instructor.

People, especially younger folks who are good at video games and/or technically inclined can do it in close to those minima.

At $150/hour for a plane, wet, and $75 per hour for the instructor, that comes out to $7125.

$20k seems exorbitant.
 
Why are approaches on a first or second lesson a bad idea? Because they are a complete waste of your time. You don't know what a procedure turn is, you haven't mastered basic attitudes yet, you haven't learned the pitch/power settings for your airplane, you're still struggling to fly simple maneuvers under the hood, etc. These are all things that require time on the ground to understand and practice in the air. You should be focusing on basic attitudes on your first lesson.
 
Dane R said:
I plan to continue my training to ATP.


So just to better understand my situation, I'm a full time college student.
Click to expand...

Stop.

What is your life/career goal?
 
TCABM said:
Stop.

What is your life/career goal?
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If I'm being completely honest, I'm not sure. I usually tell people that I want to get all certificates possible and see what opportunities come up.

Flying has been my biggest passion since I could walk, so I would love to fly for a living, fly as a side gig, or have a career where I can fly often. I've always been 50/50 on if I wanted to fly for the airlines, but from what I've been told, I'd be silly not to take an airline job at this point in time because of where the industry is at. I've been thinking about flying for a major airline while also joining the Air National Guard (not sure how that'd work, but i've heard it can be done and it sounds like a sweet gig).

No matter what happens in my early career/life, I would like to start my own aviation business at some point, which is why I am in college for Business. Entrepreneurship to be exact. My business degree also serves as a good backup plan if someday I suddenly can't get a medical or something crazy happens.
 
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Dane R said:
If I'm being completely honest, I'm not sure. I usually tell people that I want to get all certificates possible and see what opportunities come up.
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Wow.... that plan is going to be an expensive gamble. And I was going to type additional things against your plan and about millennials and the entitlement attitude, but I chose to remain polite and erased it.
 
You’re planning on running an entrepreneurial business and you haven’t figured out yet that $20,000 is off the charts crazy pricing unless they’re throwing in an airport beater car with it? :)
 
AggieMike88 said:
Wow.... that plan is going to be an expensive gamble. And I was going to type additional things against your plan and about millennials and the entitlement attitude, but I chose to remain polite and erased it.
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I don't see anything wrong with his attitude and I don't see anything that screams entitlement. He says "Flying has been my biggest passion since I could walk" and wants to get every rating there is and fly everything there is to fly. Those are consistent attitudes and dreams.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Wow.... that plan is going to be an expensive gamble. And I was going to type additional things against your plan and about millennials and the entitlement attitude, but I chose to remain polite and erased it.
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At my college, I could’ve majored in Professional Aviation, but I would still have to pay tuition + all of flight training because it’s considered “lab fees”. The only benefit of majoring in aviation is I would get a 500 hour ATP reduction and my school’s name attached to my aviation degree.

Therefore, I’m majoring in business, since it’s what my school is mainly known for anyway, and I’m just completing all of my flight training on the side. I’m still going to end up paying the same amount of $$ (if not less) as my aviation major friends, but I’ll have a business degree from a good school + all flight certificates.

How am I entitled?

FYI - all aviation majors are stuck at school A paying the $20k for instrument and so on, because that’s my college’s partner flight school.

denverpilot said:
You’re planning on running an entrepreneurial business and you haven’t figured out yet that $20,000 is off the charts crazy pricing unless they’re throwing in an airport beater car with it? :)
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I recognize that it’s expensive. But everyone keeps pointing out the obvious, instead of trying to help me find a solution. Open to any advice.
 
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Being those costs are just estimates. What are the hourly rates they are charging? Do they want the full amount up front, or can you pay as you go?

With the 2 schools it is a tough call. Without looking at hourly cost, which is a huge factor it is tough.

You do have the right mindset. School A has options if a plane is broken, but what is thier MX like. School B one plane, might be cheaper but, if one plane is broken you’re screwed. Also how many other students do they have.

The cost of a license is all on you. The more you study and are prepared the cheaper it will be.

I assume they are both part 61 schools.

And don’t get too caught up in syllabus. A good CFI should be able to tell you exactly what phase of training contains. They should be able to tell you exactly what is going to happen each flight.
 
Hi all,

School B gave me a price breakdown.

40 hrs dual at 232/hr = 9,300
40 hrs solo at 150/hr = 6,000
10 hrs ground at 55/hr = 550

So turns out it does include some time building I guess.
 
Dane R said:
Hi all,

School B gave me a price breakdown.

40 hrs dual at 232/hr = 9,300
40 hrs solo at 150/hr = 6,000
10 hrs ground at 55/hr = 550

So turns out it does include some time building I guess.
Click to expand...

But do you NEED the time building for the rating?
 
Dane R said:
I recognize that it’s expensive. But everyone keeps pointing out the obvious, instead of trying to help me find a solution. Open to any advice.
Click to expand...

Keep searching for someone not charging double what the rating is worth. You’ll need this skill running a small business as an entrepreneur, they usually don’t survive paying double the going rate for things.
 
Dane R said:
Hi all,

School B gave me a price breakdown.

40 hrs dual at 232/hr = 9,300
40 hrs solo at 150/hr = 6,000
10 hrs ground at 55/hr = 550

So turns out it does include some time building I guess.
Click to expand...

I am assuming you need the required x country hous. That would make sense if you need that time.
 
Dane R said:
I recognize that it’s expensive. But everyone keeps pointing out the obvious, instead of trying to help me find a solution. Open to any advice.
Click to expand...

Find an independent CFI and plane to do the 15 hours of required dual. Find a plane you can rent and a buddy to act as safety pilot for the other 25 hours. That will be a lot cheaper.
 
I have no idea where in the country you are from, but I would try to find something much cheaper to start and build the majority of your XC and simulated time. Then take a week at the end and just go hardcore anywhere in the country. That's what I did, and finished up at Riggin in Madison, SD. Not only did I finish my IFR rating, I also got a tailwheel endorsement since they do their training in a Cessna 140.
 
Dane R said:
Hi all,

School B gave me a price breakdown.

40 hrs dual at 232/hr = 9,300
40 hrs solo at 150/hr = 6,000
10 hrs ground at 55/hr = 550

So turns out it does include some time building I guess.
Click to expand...

$82/hr for the CFI? I guess they think that CFI stands for Cash Flows In.

In my mind, you need to do all of the flying/time building to meet the IR requirements except for the 40 hours of instrument training on your own somewhere cheaper. And if possible do the IR training elsewhere as well.
 
write-stuff said:
Why are approaches on a first or second lesson a bad idea? Because they are a complete waste of your time. You don't know what a procedure turn is, you haven't mastered basic attitudes yet, you haven't learned the pitch/power settings for your airplane, you're still struggling to fly simple maneuvers under the hood, etc. These are all things that require time on the ground to understand and practice in the air. You should be focusing on basic attitudes on your first lesson.
Click to expand...

I'm even more old-school than write-stuff: IMHO (and experience) the first five hours should be devoted to basic attitude instrument flying...straight-and-level, climbs, level-offs at a given altitude, level turns, descents w/level off at a given altitude, speed changes in level flight, etc. A fledgling instrument pilot should know what to expect from every control movement before taking on any kind of navigation. Just learning the numbers for the airplane should take a couple of hours: what pitch attitude/power setting for normal cruise? for approach cruise? for final approach? Constant rate climb? Constant airspeed climb? Trying to master these skills while simultaneously trying to follow moving needles or magenta lines is kind of hard on the brain box and extends training time.

Bob
 
alfadog said:
Also, why do those prices sound so high. Are they figuring some just plane hour-building in there?
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$20K for an IR in a Tecnam? Those prices are bat **** crazy. For that price you could do the training in a Cirrus SR22.

A Tecnam with its light wind loading would be a terrible instrument training airplane.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Find an independent CFI and plane to do the 15 hours of required dual. Find a plane you can rent and a buddy to act as safety pilot for the other 25 hours. That will be a lot cheaper.
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I don’t see many independent CFIs in my area these day and I wouldn’t recommend most of them.
 
SkyDog58 said:
$82/hr for the CFI? I guess they think that CFI stands for Cash Flows In.

In my mind, you need to do all of the flying/time building to meet the IR requirements except for the 40 hours of instrument training on your own somewhere cheaper. And if possible do the IR training elsewhere as well.
Click to expand...

There is a 40 hours instrument training requirement for an IR under Part 61?

d)Aeronautical experience for the instrument-airplane rating. A person who applies for an instrument-airplane rating must have logged:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which 10 hours must have been in an airplane; and

(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed in paragraph (c) of this section, of which 15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-airplane rating, and the instrument time includes:

(i) Three hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in an airplane that is appropriate to the instrument-airplane rating within 2 calendar months before the date of the practical test; and

(ii)Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves -

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

(e)Aer
 
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