Near miss today, would like feedback.

[obelix]

I'd like to figure out what happened during a near miss at a towered class D airport. Here's what happened:

Airplane 1: Myself IFR Student (PPL Pilot1 left seat), CFI (CFI pilot2 right seat and was my PPL instructor as well), Passenger 1 (backseat).
Airplane 2: Unknown PPL student (PPL Student Pilot3 left seat), CFI (CFI pilot 4 right seat, and is a CFI in high regard).
Tower: Tower Airtraffic controller.
RW25 threshold elevatoin 1036 MSL.
Airplane 1 is a C172 with the 180 conversion
Airplane 2 is a piper archer

Pilot 4 was teaching for a local flight school in their airplane. Myself, Pilot2 were in our club airplane. Pilot4 is a member of our club and teaches/flys in our airplane as well.

I'll start out at the runup area. We saw airplane 2 do a touch and go on 25. We (airplane 1) get clearence to hold short 25. We hold short, while airplane 2 does another touch and go. Controller gives us (airplane 1) clearence to depart 25. We watch airplane 2 go off the end of the runway on a climb as we center on RW25. Winds are 280@10G20.

Here's where it all unfolds. Airplane 2 goes straight out up wind and we don't see it anymore. We are going down RW25 and start our climb out. Every time we depart this runway, wait until 1400 MSL and make the left crosswind. The crosswind turn was before the end of the runway because of the climb speed of the 172/180 and the 10G20 headwind. I put my foggles on at this time. At 1700ft MSL I make the left downwind turn. Pilot 2 and Passenger 1 are keeping a look out.

Just shy of abeam the numbers left downwind on 25 we are about 2000ft MSL going about 75 knots climbing. All of a sudden I hear the passenger yell that the is another airplane. Airplane 2 overtakes us from above on the downwind and is decending for their landing, and what we found out later is about 85 knots. I take off my foggles and see the piper above us slightly infront and over take us and then decend below us nearly and we nearly missed the tail of airplane 2 by about 50 ft or so. We notify the tower of the near miss. When airplane 2 lands he asks for the tower number. We (airplane 1) continue on for the IFR lesson.

When we get back to the airport we ask for the tower number as well.

When we get to the club hangar Pilot 4 is waiting for us to discuss what happened. Near as we can tell airplane 2 went out farther than us in the pattern (out of sight), turned crosswind and downwind while we still couldn't see airplane2. We turned crosswind and downwind while we were below them and slower than airplane 2. We were apparently close enough and in the right spots so that with airplane 2's low wing and pitch they couldn't see us, and with our high wing we never saw them.

All of us dialed up the tower and spoke with the controller. His opinion was that we (airplane 1) made our crosswind turn too early and he didn't notice. He did say he'd pay more attention and that this was the first time this has happened to him. He said the tower supervisor may call us to follow up. No call so far.

So what went wrong?

 

[SkyDog58]

Just curious as to why the student was in the right seat and the CFI in the left seat on both airplanes. I find that odd.

Why were you still climbing when abeam the numbers?

I was not there but it would appear that the controller's assessment is correct based upon my understanding of the events as you described them.

 

[obelix]

Just curious as to why the student was in the right seat and the CFI in the left seat on both airplanes. I find that odd.

Why were you still climbing when abeam the numbers?

I was not there but it would appear that the controller's assessment is correct based upon my understanding of the events as you described them.

I corrected it, I was in the left seat in airplane 1, and the other student was in the left seat in airplane 2.

 

[obelix]

Just curious as to why the student was in the right seat and the CFI in the left seat on both airplanes. I find that odd.

Why were you still climbing when abeam the numbers?

I was not there but it would appear that the controller's assessment is correct based upon my understanding of the events as you described them.

We were still climbing because we were going down wind and travelling east to our destination, about TPA is 2100ft so we were going to make our turn to 090 in the next few seconds to leave the pattern. Pilot 4 said they were at 2100 the entire time on the downwind.

 

[roncachamp]

So what went wrong?

What was the complete instruction you received from the tower?

 

[James_Dean]

I don't think I'd be turning downwind at 650 agl while climbing and inside the departure end of the landing runway. You're not at TPA yet and abeam the numbers? I think you're mostly at fault here and in the future would climb a bit more before turning downwind.

 

[denverpilot]

I see no reason to make the crosswind turn before the end of the runway, and most tower controllers would call that an early crosswind. The pattern turn location isn't defined by an altitude.

(If we did that on the 10,000' runway, we'd be turning crosswind in the middle of the runway with another mile to go to the end.)

Most of the time at my home airport if you're departing the pattern, the tower will boot you to the outside of it though, and it sounds like where you're at, they don't. (You said you were leaving the airport area and pattern to do an IFR training flight.)

Example at our home 'drome: If we departed behind someone remaining in the pattern, tower will either approve an early crosswind to go perpendicular to the pattern (only if the departure ahead of you went waaaaay upwind) and clear you to go further outside the pattern and then on course, or they'll issue "fly straight out" with the takeoff clearance and follow up with how they want to work you out of the pattern. If you need to turn the direction of the parallel runway it's almost always "fly straight out".

One could argue that the tower controller wasn't as definitive about placing you both exactly where he wanted you.

It'd be really odd for our local tower to issue a downwind departure in the pattern. They always bounce the non-pattern folks just outside of the pattern.

 

[obelix]

So what I saw in the AIM was that the turn to crosswind should be beyond the runway end, and within 300ft of TPA. The thing that scares me is that me and everyone else in the club (most likely) takes this sort of early crosswind departure all the time, including the CFI I train with (he's the one that taught me that). Of course my CFI said he should have been more diligent in looking at his scope. It was just a bad deal, thank god it wasn't a bad day. The lesson I learned is to not make that turn to crosswind until atleast 700AGL and beyond the end of the runway.

 

[PaulS]

I think you turned crosswind way too early, especially with traffic in the pattern doing touch and goes.

 

[MAKG1]

At towered airports, I'm usually told if traffic ahead is remaining in the pattern. If that's the case, I won't turn crosswind before I see the traffic come by on downwind.

 

[wsuffa]

Doesn't "near miss" imply that you almost missed - and collided? Isn't "near collision" more accurate?

(Yes, I'm being a troublemaker)....

 

[mscard88]

Classic low wing high wing scenario. There has been quite a few collisions because both planes wings block the other. As a controller (retired) and CFI I question why the tower controller did not instruct you to not turn crosswind in front of the other aircraft, and issue the other plane as traffic, something. Seems like the tower controller wasn't paying attention. Is this a one controller tower? So I think you were at fault for turning early, your CFI for instructing you and others to do that, and the tower for not keeping the two of you appraised of each other and not issuing the other plane on downwind as traffic. I'm innocent however, had nothing to do with it!

 

[mscard88]

Doesn't "near miss" imply that you almost missed - and collided? Isn't "near collision" more accurate?

(Yes, I'm being a troublemaker)....

George Carlin always called it a "near hit".

 

[Somedudeintn]

I think the confusion may stem from the basic instrument departure vs. a VFR traffic pattern. As you already figured out 4-3-3 from the AIM says that for the departure leg of the traffic pattern "Continue straight ahead until beyond departure end of the runway. If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude." I was taught to wait until 700ft AGL & end of the runway to make the crosswind turn, and sometimes on a cold day, even a 160hp 172 will get to 1000' AGL before arrival at the DER (maybe I had a strong headwind those days).

For instrument departure procedures, AIM 5-2-8 b.1 states "Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle clearance, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the departure end of runway elevation, before making the initial turn, and maintaining 200 FPM."

I'm glad you had two traffic lookouts! Ideally the other traffic would have spotted you, or tower would have noticed, but I'm glad that someone saw and you are still here to talk about it. I think I sometimes let my guard down at towered airports, but this is a great reminder to always be vigilant in looking for traffic and being aware of where other traffic is as much as you can by listening to the radio.

Thanks for posting this so that we can all learn from the experience!

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I see no reason to make the crosswind turn before the end of the runway, and most tower controllers would call that an early crosswind. The pattern turn location isn't defined by an altitude.

(If we did that on the 10,000' runway, we'd be turning crosswind in the middle of the runway with another mile to go to the end.)

Most of the time at my home airport if you're departing the pattern, the tower will boot you to the outside of it though, and it sounds like where you're at, they don't. (You said you were leaving the airport area and pattern to do an IFR training flight.)

Example at our home 'drome: If we departed behind someone remaining in the pattern, tower will either approve an early crosswind to go perpendicular to the pattern (only if the departure ahead of you went waaaaay upwind) and clear you to go further outside the pattern and then on course, or they'll issue "fly straight out" with the takeoff clearance and follow up with how they want to work you out of the pattern. If you need to turn the direction of the parallel runway it's almost always "fly straight out".

One could argue that the tower controller wasn't as definitive about placing you both exactly where he wanted you.

It'd be really odd for our local tower to issue a downwind departure in the pattern. They always bounce the non-pattern folks just outside of the pattern.

Keep in mind I wouldn't necessarily apply situations at KAPA to other more typical class D airports. IIRC KAPA is the busiest class D in the country (if not, definitely in the top 5) and does some ATC things differently than most other D towers.

 

[Everskyward]

Was there any discussion between you (or your instructor) and the tower about how you would be departing the pattern?

 

[denverpilot]

Keep in mind I wouldn't necessarily apply situations at KAPA to other more typical class D airports. IIRC KAPA is the busiest class D in the country (if not, definitely in the top 5) and does some ATC things differently than most other D towers.

Wouldn't that mean their procedures are MORE refined rather than LESS refined than places with less traffic?

(Yes, I'm stirring the pot.)

Like I said, they tend to put you (not assume) exactly where they want you, mostly because metal is going to contact metal aloft if they don't.

Might not hurt that tower controller that said he "didn't pay attention" to try that here sometime. Well, it might hurt, in a bad way... Ha.

Probably have to have a tower supervisor's boot surgically removed from somewhere if he said that he just should've watched the scope more carefully and figured folks would go somewhere / do something "right" without specifically telling them to.

 

[Shawn]

The crosswind turn was before the end of the runway because of the climb speed of the 172/180 and the 10G20 headwind.

You CFI left out a critical part of teaching departure turns...700' AGL or departure end of runway...whichever comes LAST.

I trained at a 10,000' runway. If staying closed traffic, we would fly a standard pattern not turning left crosswind until well after departure end because it was a busy field. If we were departing the area, we would always request "early turnout" from tower if we wanted to head out the the practice area rather than fly the extra mile upwind...but it was always coordinated with Tower.

It was always engrained in me to visualize the standard traffic pattern picture regardless of runway length and fly that...any maneuvers other than those turns constitute a self announce at an uncontrolled field and a request and approval from a towered field.

Long story short...you cut him off.

 

[denverpilot]

We could make this thread more entertaining by adding that some morons take their upwind out like three miles for no reason at all, and the tower and everyone else then have to play "follow the leader" and make the patterns ten miles long at both ends of the runway for no good safety or other reason...

I always cringe when I hear the tower say, "You're following the Cessna turning base over the south shore of Cherry Creek Reservoir, follow that traffic, number two, cleared to land Runway 17R...." at KAPA.

Especially 17R... The two runway thresholds aren't parallel on that end... You don't need to be out that far.

Common sense says to stay within a reasonable gliding distance of the field if the engine quits, the noise abatement procedures say to turn by Arapahoe Road, etc etc etc, but numbnuts are always out there turning base over the reservoir in Cessnas, because they see the jets doing it...

(Pet peeve. Beat head here...)

 

[MAKG1]

You CFI left out a critical part of teaching departure turns...700' AGL or departure end of runway...whichever comes LAST.

I trained at a 10,000' runway. If staying closed traffic, we would fly a standard pattern not turning left crosswind until well after departure end because it was a busy field. If we were departing the area, we would always request "early turnout" from tower if we wanted to head out the the practice area rather than fly the extra mile upwind...but it was always coordinated with Tower.

It was always engrained in me to visualize the standard traffic pattern picture regardless of runway length and fly that...any maneuvers other than those turns constitute a self announce at an uncontrolled field and a request and approval from a towered field.

Long story short...you cut him off.

It's 400 AGL for an instrument departure. Was the OP practicing a SID, or the "usual" clearance?

Almost all the DPs or SIDs I run across have turns right away. Palo Alto has a turn either to 060 or direct SJC VOR within 1 mile of the DER (from 31). That's pretty close to a right crosswind or downwind turn (respectively), very close in.

 

[Hank S]

Of course my CFI said he should have been more diligent in looking at his scope.

Your CFII should have been more diligent looking out the windows!

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Of course my CFI said he should have been more diligent in looking at his scope.

Not all towers have scopes.

 

[Shawn]

It's 400 AGL for an instrument departure. Was the OP practicing a SID, or the "usual" clearance?

Almost all the DPs or SIDs I run across have turns right away. Palo Alto has a turn either to 060 or direct SJC VOR within 1 mile of the DER (from 31). That's pretty close to a right crosswind or downwind turn (respectively), very close in.

From the FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook...still required to fly to the DER (which was the point I was trying to make) unless otherwise specified (note: it says "and"...not "or")...which was the issue in this case regardless of IFR or VFR.

"Unless specied otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway (DER) at least 35 feet above the DER elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the DER elevation before making the initial turn, and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of..."

While I agree there are certainly exception to that guidance...it was clear that the OP was not even aware about that guidance even though he was departing IFR in VMC with the see and avoid responsibility still in effect and other VFR traffic in the pattern.

 

[obelix_]

You CFI left out a critical part of teaching departure turns...700' AGL or departure end of runway...whichever comes LAST.

I trained at a 10,000' runway. If staying closed traffic, we would fly a standard pattern not turning left crosswind until well after departure end because it was a busy field. If we were departing the area, we would always request "early turnout" from tower if we wanted to head out the the practice area rather than fly the extra mile upwind...but it was always coordinated with Tower.

It was always engrained in me to visualize the standard traffic pattern picture regardless of runway length and fly that...any maneuvers other than those turns constitute a self announce at an uncontrolled field and a request and approval from a towered field.

Long story short...you cut him off.

The interesting part is that when is was PPL training, I had three instructors, a business man who got his CFI in the late 70's, an eastern/delta pilot who retired in the 80's and a USAF Colonel/base commander. All three of then have during my training told me to turn at 500ft AGL... Many times..

 

[Mtns2Skies]

The interesting part is that when is was PPL training, I had three instructors, a business man who got his CFI in the late 70's, an eastern/delta pilot who retired in the 80's and a USAF Colonel/base commander. All three of then have during my training told me to turn at 500ft AGL... Many times..

Me too 500' has been the rule for me among many CFI's.

 

[luvflyin]

Glad the outcome was ok. Good for you to put it out for discussion. I gotta agree that the crosswind turn was early.

You had already watched the other plane do 2 touch and go's. Did anyone hear anything that indicated he wasn't staying in the pattern? You had lost sight of him, that makes it especially early.

Low wing or not the other plane probably had a good chance to see you on his crosswind to downwind turn if he is scanning the pattern.

The controller might have caught it but didn't.

I question going under the hood that early when making a downwind departure anytime. Granted, that probably didn't make the difference in this overtaken from the rear situation.

The system broke down, there was a chain of events.

 

[obelix]

Was there any discussion between you (or your instructor) and the tower about how you would be departing the pattern?

Nope, it was the same flight that we've flown 100x before (ppl and ifr traning). Tower always clear 25 and proceed on course.

 

[obelix]

Wouldn't that mean their procedures are MORE refined rather than LESS refined than places with less traffic?

(Yes, I'm stirring the pot.)

Like I said, they tend to put you (not assume) exactly where they want you, mostly because metal is going to contact metal aloft if they don't.

Might not hurt that tower controller that said he "didn't pay attention" to try that here sometime. Well, it might hurt, in a bad way... Ha.

Probably have to have a tower supervisor's boot surgically removed from somewhere if he said that he just should've watched the scope more carefully and figured folks would go somewhere / do something "right" without specifically telling them to.

I don't think anyone is going to escalate it. We all learned something I think.. I've met the controller who was on duty in person about a year ago. I'm friends with the CFI in airplane 2. Everyone was a bit boggled about what happened. Hindsight is 20/20. I was at fault for turning crosswind about 200-300 ft too early.

 

[obelix]

Not all towers have scopes.

This one does and I've been up there and actually met and talked with the controller who was on duty previously. But I think the problem here was an early turn out. I think in the future I'll turn out after 700AGL, or get clearance from the tower for early turn out. I'll make sure all three of the CFI's I trained with know what I've found here and in my research. All 5 people plus a few will learn from this.

 

[denverpilot]

I don't think anyone is going to escalate it. We all learned something I think.. I've met the controller who was on duty in person about a year ago. I'm friends with the CFI in airplane 2. Everyone was a bit boggled about what happened. Hindsight is 20/20. I was at fault for turning crosswind about 200-300 ft too early.

I didn't say anyone would. Nor suggest they should.

 

[Everskyward]

Nope, it was the same flight that we've flown 100x before (ppl and ifr traning). Tower always clear 25 and proceed on course.

Yeahbut "Tower" might have been a different or new person this time. I don't think either you or tower should be making an assumption about how you will be departing. Did you discuss what "on course" was?

 

[obelix]

Classic low wing high wing scenario. There has been quite a few collisions because both planes wings block the other. As a controller (retired) and CFI I question why the tower controller did not instruct you to not turn crosswind in front of the other aircraft, and issue the other plane as traffic, something. Seems like the tower controller wasn't paying attention. Is this a one controller tower? So I think you were at fault for turning early, your CFI for instructing you and others to do that, and the tower for not keeping the two of you appraised of each other and not issuing the other plane on downwind as traffic. I'm innocent however, had nothing to do with it!

This was something that crossed our mind as well. Complacency of everyone's part. We assume they are looking out for us since it's controlled airspace, and would give us guidance if there was traffic in our way. They give us direction all the time.. I think I expected it. I've learned from it..

 

[luvflyin]

....... I've learned from it......

The system is working

 

[fiveoboy01]

Nope, it was the same flight that we've flown 100x before (ppl and ifr traning). Tower always clear 25 and proceed on course.

In my opinion if you don't intend to stay in the pattern, you should exit the pattern ASAP and then worry about getting on course. To me, remaining in the pattern and exiting on the downwind past the numbers is asking for trouble.

The AIM says straight out or a 45 degree turn in the same direction as the crosswind. Either option executed would have completely eliminated this scenario.

Knowing that an airplane was on upwind, and not knowing how far he went out, or where he turned crosswind, would only reinforce that.

 

[obelix]

Yeahbut "Tower" might have been a different or new person this time. I don't think either you or tower should be making an assumption about how you will be departing. Did you discuss what "on course" was?

Well, we knew what the plan was, we planned the ILS 31 and then the IFR 23 approaches at an airport to the east. The airport is '090 from our airport. VFR flight or IFR flight we take off 25, L crosswind, the L down wind and then about the numbers we turn toward the training airport about 10 minutes away. 45 Deg out of the pattern then on course. Very routine.. W'eve done it 100 times, as PPL and IFR student.

 

[fiveoboy01]

The 45 degree exit should be made from the upwind in the direction of the crosswind, not on the downwind.

 

[denverpilot]

Yeahbut "Tower" might have been a different or new person this time. I don't think either you or tower should be making an assumption about how you will be departing. Did you discuss what "on course" was?

That's bugging me too.

Safety is a system and multiple failures in good safety systems usually have to occur to have an accident chain.

Safety controls on this scenario are:

- Tower instructions - Primary
- Regulations - When and where to fly a pattern for consistency amongst pilots... Messed up the tower guy, and made the airplane that was on the way back in, complacent in looking for the OP. If they'd have looked for you outbound and not spotted you, they might have looked to see if you'd turned. Hard to say.
- See and avoid - Common sense. Don't hit things. And also a reg, but more common sense than reg. Half the time it turns out dumb luck plays as much a part in this step as not.

Two systems failed. Only one kept the answer to the OPs original question, "What went wrong?" to, "Technically nothing."

"The system handled multiple failures and a collision didn't occur."

But there were still two human failures. Not just the early crosswind.

The controller saying "not watching the scope" was the problem, I think was incorrect. Not telling both aircraft clearly where he wanted them, was.

If that's a single runway, he could have simply turned the IFR training flight out downwind on the other side, for example... "Make RIGHT traffic, then on-course..." All sorts of ways to keep the two aircraft from merging on the downwind. (Assuming no limitations of noise abatement on that side, yadda yadda yadda...)

Active separation of two aircraft doing significantly different missions, instead of passive, I guess is what I'm getting at here.

Kinda like KAPA gets us all the hell out of the way of Mari when she arrives. Haha. (I'm not kidding! But it is funny!)

Mari owns 35R/17L long before she gets there. Hahaha. Damn fancy jets. I gotta taxi a half mile because they don't want me "fouling the deck" over there on the jet runway.

Haha.

(I did get another runway 10 landing at night the night before last. That's kinda fun when nobody is around. I've made two in all the years I've been flying at APA. Ha. Wind was out of 120 so I asked for it. Nobody around, so they said sure... Now that's a nice short taxi to the hangar!)

 

[Everskyward]

Well, we knew what the plan was, we planned the ILS 31 and then the IFR 23 approaches at an airport to the east. The airport is '090 from our airport. VFR flight or IFR flight we take off 25, L crosswind, the L down wind and then about the numbers we turn toward the training airport about 10 minutes away. 45 Deg out of the pattern then on course. Very routine.. W'eve done it 100 times, as PPL and IFR student.

Does "we" include the tower? In other words, did you tell the tower you would be departing east from a left downwind? Or did they ask you to do that? Did they give you any instructions at all other than "proceed on course"? Did they know where "on course" was? It seems as if there was a lack of communication on both sides. In any case, the normal way to depart the pattern to the left (or right), unless coordinated with the tower, would not be from the downwind. It would be a 45 degree turn from the upwind.

 

[Everskyward]

Kinda like KAPA gets us all the hell out of the way of Mari when she arrives. Haha. (I'm not kidding! But it is funny!)

Mari owns 35R/17L long before she gets there. Hahaha. Damn fancy jets. I gotta taxi a half mile because they don't want me "fouling the deck" over there on the jet runway.

Haha.

But sometimes there is a glitch, like the time I was given a go-around when I had already reduced power to flare. I couldn't believe what I was hearing because I saw no reason for it. It's the only time I've ever gone back to listen to us on live ATC. You couldn't hear them giving me the go-around, but you did hear the other pilot ask "what was the wave-off for?" I guess he was reverting to the military days, haha. The "wave off" was because an airplane had rolled across the hold line midfield...

 

[35 AoA]

I'm not saying that we don't all have a responsibility to look outside (which it sounds like you were doing anyway, at least initially), but I would have expected a call from tower or approach or whomever telling me what my interval was in this case. That is just basic ATC deconfliction. Glad it worked out ok, and good lesson learned of course, but I wouldn't beat myself up too badly about it personally. Doing belly checks is a good habit pattern to use anytime turning crosswind to downwind, to make sure someone didn't miss something, but there should have been a dialogue between you and the controller about them also being on downwind.