NDB and ADF approaches in San Diego?

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Blueangel

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So I have a plane that I train in with ADF. Flying in San Diego will I need to know how to use the ADF and fly NDB approaches here? Last I checked there are no longer any NDB approaches in San Diego area. Just want to make sure so that if I indeed must learn ADF then I can make sure that my CFII teaches it.

So will the DPE make me do ADF and NDB on the IR checkride in San Diego?
 
Blueangel said:
So I have a plane that I train in with ADF. Flying in San Diego will I need to know how to use the ADF and fly NDB approaches here? Last I checked there are no longer any NDB approaches in San Diego area. Just want to make sure so that if I indeed must learn ADF then I can make sure that my CFII teaches it.

So will the DPE make me do ADF and NDB on the IR checkride in San Diego?
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I think you should remove the ADF from the aircraft for the checkride, and skip learning it. Invest that time and money in learning RNAV/GPS approaches and navigation. NDB is nearly extinct in the US, good for museums and hangar flying only. It's a shame, because I flew quite a few of those approaches in the soup and all that knowledge is now useless. ;)
 
Could just take 5 minutes and use Sky Vector and AirNav to look up all the local airports to see if they have an NDB approach listed, but I did that for you, and there aren't any. Unless there is one way out of the way but I don't see why a DPE would go way out of the way just to have you do a NDB approach. He may have you talk about it during the oral. If you want to be certain, do what I did and sweet talk the mechanic to put an INOP sticker on it for your checkride.
 
Yup I checked but wanted to see if the DPE would expect me to demonstrate use of ADF on the checkride if no NDB approaches exist. I'll find a plane without one or do as you suggest.
 
But NDB approaches are not hard if you know how to do them. Maybe guys today aren't learning them? I realize it's a lost art.

On a side note: anyone ever do a poor mans localizer approach using two ADFs? One behind you one in front. No figuring necessary. You can see the bend in the course. I've only done it it sim, never for real. It's a trip. Think it's old fashion European.
 
I doubt the DPE will want to go too far out of the way to find a NDB approach. If there isn't one close by I would worry about having the ADF in the plane.
 
Blueangel said:
Yup I checked but wanted to see if the DPE would expect me to demonstrate use of ADF on the checkride if no NDB approaches exist. I'll find a plane without one or do as you suggest.
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I don't even see any NDBs period in the San Diego area.

Is using the ADF really that big of a deal for you?
 
You can pick up AM stations on an ADF. Are those still on the VFR charts?
 
Kritchlow said:
But NDB approaches are not hard if you know how to do them. Maybe guys today aren't learning them? I realize it's a lost art.

On a side note: anyone ever do a poor mans localizer approach using two ADFs? One behind you one in front. No figuring necessary. You can see the bend in the course. I've only done it it sim, never for real. It's a trip. Think it's old fashion European.
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Kind of like flying taildraggers...so many people have said NDBs are hard to fly that people start to believe it.

Charles City, IA used to have two NDBs...one at the FAF and one at the runway. I don't ever recall there being a two-NDB procedure there, but it sure made life easy on the one-NDB procedure if you had a second ADF!
 
Kritchlow said:
But NDB approaches are not hard if you know how to do them. Maybe guys today aren't learning them? I realize it's a lost art.

On a side note: anyone ever do a poor mans localizer approach using two ADFs? One behind you one in front. No figuring necessary. You can see the bend in the course. I've only done it it sim, never for real. It's a trip. Think it's old fashion European.
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Stupid simple, I am told they are all over the place in Russia, etc.

Two cheap-ass MW transmitters, two ADF receivers and a single indicator. Needles line up? You're lined up.

Sometimes, we over-complicate stuff...
 
asgcpa said:
Awesome thinking !
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Put it in the logbook or expect a discontinuance. Read the PTS.

I don't see how you can fly a nonexistent approach. You might get asked a question or two, but I doubt it. Wouldn't it be easier to learn it? There isn't much to them. Arrow points to the station.
 
I don't mind learning ADF and how to fly NDB approaches but its hard to do so when none exist in the area. I am thinking of having my CFII teach me them anyways and to fly a few on my long IFR cross country just for fun. Besides, I can always listen to country or rock music AM stations or talk radio with the ADF station tuned in!
 
SCCutler said:
Stupid simple, I am told they are all over the place in Russia, etc.

Two cheap-ass MW transmitters, two ADF receivers and a single indicator. Needles line up? You're lined up.

Sometimes, we over-complicate stuff...
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In Russia and similar places the ADF approaches have two NDBs and the airline aircraft, at least, have two ADF receivers and the needles are displayed on two slaved-compass RMIs. Not exactly one ADF with a fixed compass card.
 
Blueangel said:
I don't mind learning ADF and how to fly NDB approaches but its hard to do so when none exist in the area. I am thinking of having my CFII teach me them anyways and to fly a few on my long IFR cross country just for fun. Besides, I can always listen to country or rock music AM stations or talk radio with the ADF station tuned in!
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You could build your own approach off of an AM broadcast station in the area if there is one in a suitable location. (calm down everyone, it's just for practice) There might be one that fits in a good practice area close by. Even if that doesn't work out you'd still be able to practice joining bearings from and courses to up at altitude. With all the VOR's there you'd have no trouble finding a place to practice holding on an NDB course using a VOR radial as the cross fix and on a radial using NDB as the cross bearing.

ADF is a great exercise in spatial orientation and being able to build the "picture" in your head instead of just looking at it on the screen. Check out the simulators there. As of last year the one at MYF had ADF.
 
aterpster said:
In Russia and similar places the ADF approaches have two NDBs and the airline aircraft, at least, have two ADF receivers and the needles are displayed on two slaved-compass RMIs. Not exactly one ADF with a fixed compass card.
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Yes, but having the 2 ADF heads is kind of important, as this crew found out. :(
 
Blueangel said:
I don't mind learning ADF and how to fly NDB approaches but its hard to do so when none exist in the area. I am thinking of having my CFII teach me them anyways and to fly a few on my long IFR cross country just for fun. Besides, I can always listen to country or rock music AM stations or talk radio with the ADF station tuned in!
Click to expand...

You could build your own approach off of an AM broadcast station in the area if there is one in a suitable location. (calm down everyone, it's just for practice) There might be one that fits in a good practice area close by. Even if that doesn't work out you'd still be able to practice joining bearings from and courses to up at altitude. With all the VOR's there you'd have no trouble finding a place to practice holding on an NDB course using a VOR radial as the cross fix and on a radial using NDB as the cross bearing.

ADF is a great exercise in spatial orientation and being able to build the "picture" in your head instead of just looking at it on the screen. Check out the simulators there. As of last year the one at MYF had ADF.
 
RotorDude said:
Yes, but having the 2 ADF heads is kind of important, as this crew found out. :(
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Quite familiar with that accident. (chart attached). At that time Jeppesen had Kolocep in a shadow box. They were dunned for that.

I felt then, and still do, that the issuing state should have had a procedural note that read, "Simultaneous reception of KLP and CV required."

The crash site is where I placed the blue arrow.
 

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Good to know that NDB is big in Europe as it could be fun flying there on a vacation albeit super expensive hence why many Europeans come to California to earn their pilot licenses.
 
aterpster said:
Quite familiar with that accident. (chart attached). At that time Jeppesen had Kolocep in a shadow box. They were dunned for that.

I felt then, and still do, that the issuing state should have had a procedural note that read, "Simultaneous reception of KLP and CV required."

The crash site is where I placed the blue arrow.
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For reference, below is the approach plate they were using. There seem to be a few differences compared to the modern one you attach, including yet another NDB on yours (GRUDA).

Lddu_ndb_12.JPG
 
Blueangel said:
Yup I checked but wanted to see if the DPE would expect me to demonstrate use of ADF on the checkride if no NDB approaches exist. I'll find a plane without one or do as you suggest.
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Simple answer. It's almost 100% he won't.

One approach will be GPS. One will be ILS. The last will likely be VOR or LOC.

He's not going to skip a much more commonly used approach to make you do some ancient ADF that you probably don't even have at the airport you are testing at. I have an ADF. He never even mentioned it to me. Didn't even ask me how it works. The FAA is de-emphasizing them big time on the written tests as well.

Fly a few in the sim just so you know how they work. A single NDB approach is dead simple to do.
 
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I'm planning to find an NDB on my instrument cross country flights and fly these with my instructor.
 
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